Not By Works

Yep. It's a schoolmaster that can only drive us to the cross and no farther.

Some are not convinced that the gospel is true - that Jesus is who He claims to be. God grants the seed, but what kind of soil it falls into is up to us. (Matthew 13)

It's like when the Bible says Creation is proof enough that God exists, so that all people are without excuse (Romans 1:20). But some look at creation and contend that it all created itself - the universe and life - without the need for a supernatural creator.

That are willfully blind.

yes, we are told to come to mt. Zion.

the Judeaizers keep trying to drag us back to Sinai, and put us under the ministry of death written on stones...

Its crazy

First they wanted to return to Egypt. Now they want to return to law.

I think it is because they want what is familiar, and what they know. Livig faith in things which are not seen are scary propositions. Thats why it is so hard. It is much easier to obey these rules and play these ceremonies.. because we can see them. But sadly, to do this, you have to water down the law.. Or you would never be able to sustain that walk. Because it woudl always condemn you.

It also has a lot to do with pride. They tend to be very Pharisaical. The ones praying loudly in public for everyone to see. They have this strange need to "help" God, to "contribute" in some way to their salvation. That's why they brag about how "holy" they're living, and demanding that if you don't follow suit, you're probably lost.

They're the "nothing in life is free" bunch.

Well, one thing sure is; Salvation through Jesus.

there is a way that seems right to a man, but it's end is destruction.

that, in my opinion , is what one gets when they let their pride lead them to reject salvation by Christ, because that is the only salvation there is.......

Yes sir, as the jews Got mad at Jesus because he told them their self righteousness was not enough. These get mad at people who say the same thing Jesus says. And excuse it by calling us teaching free grace.

Grace is not free, it was paid by a price.. That price was paid on calvary..when you mock grace, you mock the price that paid it.

Human nature says I can not recieve somethign for free, I must pay at least some part.

Thats why we have to be taken to our knees.. Otherwise we will never see our total need.

Thats what the law was for.. and as we see, people water down the law and have not been trianed by it, but judge us for not following it like they do.

I's not that people don't know what God's purpose for His Law is, that He created for our own good is EG. It's just that people who don't agree with your religion and what you preach the purpose of the Law is.

there is a huge difference.

I'll give it one more shot.

God created the soil. We don't create our own soil.
God plants the seed. The seed is planted in the dead heart. The seed grows into a NEW heart. The dead heart fades away. This is the new birth. IT IS ALL GOD. We do not conceive and birth ourselves.

WHERE does our faith come from? Don't you see? If we say God called and led us but WE chose, then WE have something to boast about!

I've come to believe this is the last hurdle of self. That somehow, somewhere, in my dead flesh I chose Him. I would NOT have chosen Him had He not FIRST chosen me.

Appreciate the discussion brother, Be Blessed.

Can someone explain to me this line of thinking? (Not to attack my brother here. Just looking for an honest clarification from people calvinist and non calvinist alike)

Did not jesus say the tax collector went home justified? Did not the tax collector CHOSE to get on his knees, and beg for Gods mercy NOT EVEN EXPECTING IT? And did nto the pharisee CHOSE to puff his chest?

Yes, God draws us, and yes, God gives us faith to believe, but He also gave us a free will.

He draws us - but only so far.

He gives us faith - but just enough to make a choice, one way or the other, that is not in violation of our free will.

It's like the old saying that God reveals Himself just enough, so that those who want to find Him will, and He hides Himself just enough from those who don't wish to find him.

Even the angels, created by God, made eternal , living with Him in heaven, fully dependent on God for all things, still had a free will to choose to serve Him or the rebel Satan.

I think God knows a persons heart.

He knows it I do this, this person will believe,
He knows what will work, what will not work
And he knows who will reject his word no matter what he does.

That is why all who are given to him WILL believe, Because he will always do what needs to happen (he will never make a mistake)

And thats why some will never hear the gospel from another mans voice. Because God knows no. Matter what he does. They will never believe (they already rejected God in their heart by rejecing the Holy SPirits call) and God is not goingn to risk the lives of people to send to people who will NEVER believe themm anyway (God sent Jonah knowing jonah could have been killed and Jonah did not want to go, But God KNEW the gentile nation would repent)

And thats why TO ME, God gets the credit NO MATTER what position one holds. Even for the lost who God will have to say depart. He is glorified even in them

How does a dead person have free will?

Ephesians 2:1 New King James Version (NKJV)
By Grace Through Faith
2 And you He made alive, who were dead in trespasses and sins,

we weren't sick or mostly dead, we were dead.

How does our dead heart of flesh choose Him?

Romans 7:18 English Standard Version (ESV)
18 For I know that nothing good dwells in me, that is, in my flesh. For I have the desire to do what is right, but not the ability to carry it out.

Okay, I'll try one last analogy.

Let's say a scientist revives a dead person, but only for a short period of time. The scientist then offers the person a pill that will grant him eternal life, or he can choose to refuse, and go back to being dead - forever.

How could God harden Pharaoh's heart, while holding Pharaoh responsible for his choices?

I think we can look at the word harden, see what it means, and understand more fully what it means to harden a persons heart.

I know it opened my eyes.

Here is my experience of how I was born again. I came to an END of myself, of living my own life MY WAY, when my wife of only 6 months demanded a divorce, because I could not earn enough money. I meant my Vows, and she did not. I also know that GOD does not approve of divorce. I went into DEEP depression that last week of 1977. I did not want to live another day, so during that week I attempted Suicide three times. AFTER THE THIRD ATTEMPT SOMETHING IN ME BROKE. (Which I now think it was the pride of living my Life my own way.) TREMENDOUS GUILT over my WHOLE LIFESTYLE washed over me, WAVE after WAVE after WAVE. I was instantly brought to my knees, and was crying and sobbing like a baby. During that intensity of that moment I said a prayer that no man had ever taught me.

"FORGIVE ME! FORGIVE ME! Lord if you have a purpose for my life, you will have to come in and run my life, because I CAN'T DO IT."

That is as close to it as I can get in my old age, but IT was a COMPLETE Surrender to Jesus Christ, for the rest of my life. That was the night of Dec. 30, 1977, but it was about 4:30 in the morning, so it was early morning Dec.31, 1977. Those waves of GRIEF over my UTTER SINFULNESS DID NOT STOP. And I kept repeating: FORGIVE ME! FORGIVE ME! I fell to a prostrate position, face down. It must have been at least 45 minutes later, THEN something else happened to me, that I have been reluctant to tell very many people about. I don't remember falling asleep, or GOD gave me a Vision, I really cannot tell, but if it was a DREAM it was the most VIVID DREAM THAT I EVER HAD. I was literally at the foot of the Cross on my knees reaching up to him, still crying out, FORGIVE ME! FORGIVE ME! And I noticed that the Nails were through his Wrists, {and it was YEARS later that I learned that the Jews considered the Wrists to be part of the hands}. Then I saw the blood from those nails fall, and splash in my forearms, and I was amazed that I could feel the warmth of that blood.

That is where the Vision or Dream ended, but I knew HE HAD FORGIVEN me totally.

Now I must ask, HOW IS THAT NOTHING BUT 100% GOD bringing me TOO HIM ? ? ?

Please note; "the Son will 'quicken whom He will." John5:21

Hi PennEd, I believe we have had a conversation or two, but here's my view about your question; "How does
our dead heart of flesh choose Him", (our free will)?" I was born of God Sept. 1978, 40yrs. ago, but it was as if it happened to day, praise God.

I was conscious of the fact that something dynamic was happening in my life and a peace that surpasses all understanding had taken hold of me. The only thing that occupied my thinking was praise and thanksgiving to God, and I recall it was a very beautiful and personal experience.

Some of the actions of God are veiled or even known only to God. As a babe in Christ I experienced many unanswered questions and so that one by one my questions were being revealed through the study of the bible and the light of the Holy Spirit.

God bless and enjoy your heavenly adoption as a son of the Most High God.

Deuteronomy29:29 The secret things belong to the LORD, our God, but the things revealed belong to us and to our children forever,

John5:21
For as the Father raiseth up the dead, and quickeneth them; even so the Son quickeneth whom he will.

John6:63
63 It is the Spirit that quickeneth; the flesh profiteth nothing: the words that I speak unto you, they are spirit, and they are life.

Colossians2:2-3; "that they may be encouraged in heart knit together in love, and filled with the full riches of complete understanding, 'so that they may know the mystery of God', namely Christ, 3) in whom are hidden all the treasures of wisdom and knowledge.

My point was simply that, while yes, we are dead in our trespasses and sins, God revives (draws) us enough to make our free will choice between eternal life through Christ, or the second death.

If we don't have that choice, it made no sense for Jesus to pay for the sins of the whole world. We would also have to accept that God chooses some people (including children) to go to hell, and there is nothing they can do about it. No mercy, no redemption, no pardon whatsoever. Also, how would one know they are one of the saved? By good works? How do you know you won't stop doing good works one day? There would be no assurance. We actually couldn't know we have eternal life, as 1 John 5:13 says we will.

Also, it makes no sense for Jesus to command us to share the gospel with all the world. Those chosen to be saved, will be saved, no matter if they hear the gospel or not. The choice has already been made for them.