Seventh-day Adventists

I agree

But again will add. Going to church on saterday is not obeying the sabaath, Church has nothing to do with being obedience to the sabaath, it is a day of rest.

A day of rest you sleep in, You rest your mind and your body, because you are getting ready to start a new week. Many things we can do on this day of rest.

Please show me these instructions for the Church in regards to the Sabbath in the New Testament. Sabbatarians often quote Mark 2:27 to imply that the Sabbath was made for all mankind, but the text doesn't say that. It doesn't say, "The Sabbath was made for "mankind", it says, "the Sabbath was made for man." When the Scripture is meant to be inclusive of all mankind it is clear. See Matthew 28:19; John 3:16; Acts 2:17; I Timothy 2:4; Titus 2:11. These verses clearly indicate that when God offers something to all mankind He clearly offers it to all.

The Sabbath was not offered to all the nations. It was given to the nation of Israel. Look at Deuteronomy 5:1-15 which gives the commandments to Israel. 2 The Lord our God made a covenant with us in Horeb. 3 The Lord did not make this covenant with our fathers, but with us, those who are here today, all of us who are alive.

Nehemiah 9:13 - Then You came down on Mount Sinai, And spoke with them from heaven; You gave them just ordinances and true laws, Good statutes and commandments. 14 So You made known to them Your holy sabbath, And laid down for them commandments, statutes and law, Through Your servant Moses.

Of course Jesus kept the Sabbath. He was born under the law (Galatians 4:4) and His disciples lived under the dispensation of law, prior to the death of Jesus. There was a transition from law to grace. (Hebrews 9:16-17) Where does the Bible say that the Sabbath was established at Creation? If every man from Adam to Moses kept the Sabbath, why is the Hebrew word for the weekly Sabbath found in the ten commandments, never found in the book of Genesis? Why is no one before Moses ever being told to keep the Sabbath? Why are there no examples of anyone keeping the Sabbath? Why were the Patriarchs never instructed about he Sabbath, but were instructed regarding: offerings: Gen 4:3-4, Altars Gen 8:20, Priests: Gen 14:18, Tithes: Genesis 14:20, Circumcision: Genesis 17:10, Marriage: Genesis 2:24 & Genesis 34:9. Why would God leave out the Sabbath command? Although God's rest on the seventh day (Genesis 2:3) did foreshadow a future Sabbath law, there is no Biblical record of the Sabbath before the children of Israel left the land of Egypt. *Nowhere in Scripture is there any hint that Sabbath keeping was practiced from Adam to Moses.

Notice the reason why the Lord links the Sabbath to creation is that He is identifying Himself to Israel as the true and living Creator God. He is separate and apart from all of the other gods of Egypt and of the Gentile world. "Keep the Sabbath, worship Me, for I AM the true, living Creator of the Universe." Notice also that this Sabbath "SIGN" (Exodus 31:13) is between God and "the sons of Israel" (Exodus 12:15,17) and not all of mankind.

An unbiased reading of Colossians 2:16 will show that this is talking about not just "ceremonial Sabbaths." The words "ton sabbaton" or "sabbath days"; are the same words translated "Sabbath day" in Exodus 20:8 in the Septuagint (the Jewish translation of the Old Testament into Greek).

Look at Paul's reasoning, "Let no one judge you regarding a,

festival - yearly Sabbaths,
a new moon - monthly Sabbaths,
or a Sabbath day - weekly Sabbaths (or if you wish Sabbath days)"
CHRIST, he goes on to say is the "Substance", these things were shadows.

When this passage is compared with Galatians 4:9 an obvious connection in Paul's teaching is revealed: "But now that you have come to know God, or rather to be known by God, how is it that you turn back again to the weak and worthless elemental things, to which you desire to be enslaved all over again? You observe days and months and seasons and years."

Verse 10 flatly states, "you observe...",

days (weekly Sabbaths, corresponding to "Sabbath days in Col. 2)
months (new moons, corresponding to "a new moon" in Col. 2)
seasons (the 7 feasts, corresponding to "festivals" in Col. 2)
and years (the sabbatical year and the 50th year of Jubilee)

Obviously Paul is clearing speaking about the observances of all Jewish holy days, including the weekly Sabbath.

When God wants to refer to the whole system of Jewish holy days, rather than name them all, He would refer to the yearly, monthly and weekly as representing the whole system. SDA's argue that the Sabbath Day of Colossians 2:16 is the years Sabbaths. But yearly Sabbaths were already referred to in Colossians 2:16 as "festivals". The "Year, Month, Week" pattern is so well established in the Old Testament, that Colossians 2:16 must refer to the weekly Sabbath.

Yearly, monthly, weekly pattern proves it is the weekly Sabbath.

1 Chronicles 23:31 - Yearly (fixed festivals), monthly (new moons), weekly (Sabbaths)

2 Chronicles 2:4 - Yearly (appointed feasts), monthly (new moons), weekly (Sabbaths)

2 Chronicles 8:13 - Yearly (annual feasts), monthly (new moons), weekly (Sabbaths)

2 Chronicles 31:3 - Yearly (fixed festivals), monthly (new moons), weekly (Sabbaths)

Nehemiah 10:33 - Yearly (appointed times), monthly (new moon), weekly (Sabbaths)

Isaiah 1:13-14 - Yearly (appointed feasts), monthly (new moon), weekly (Sabbath)

Ezekiel 45:17 - Yearly (appointed feasts), monthly (new moons), weekly (Sabbaths)

Ezek 46:1-11 - Yearly (appointed feasts), monthly (new moons), weekly (Sabbath)

Hosea 2:11 - Yearly (festal assemblies), monthly (new moons), weekly (Sabbaths)

Galatians 4:10 - years, months, days

Colossians 2:16 - festival, new moon, Sabbath day

Sabbatarians often ask for one text in the Bible that commands Sunday worship and here it is:

LEVITICUS 23:5-11 - Look at verse 11: "'And he shall wave the sheaf before the Lord for you to be accepted; on the day after the sabbath the priest shall wave it.'" The day after the Sabbath is Sunday.

Read on specifically looking at Leviticus 23:15 - "'You shall also count for yourselves from the day after the sabbath, from the day when you brought in the sheaf of the wave offering; there shall be seven complete sabbaths. You shall count fifty days to the DAY AFTER THE SEVENTH SABBATH; then you shall present a new grain offering to the Lord.'" This is the Feast of Pentecost. It was one of the compulsory feasts of Israel.

Note on the day of Pentecost, a Sunday God's people were commanded to worship. God says, "On this same day you shall make a proclamation as well; you are to have a holy convocation. You shall do no laborious work. It is to be perpetual statute in all your dwelling places throughout your generations." Leviticus 23:21.

If you think this is only applying to "ceremonial" days, Leviticus 23 starts out talking about the weekly Sabbath (see Leviticus 23:1-4). It is called an appointed time and a holy convocation, along with all the other feast days of Israel. No distinction is made by God between these holy days and the weekly Sabbath. He includes them as being equally holy. This would mean that under the Old Covenant the First Fruits Sunday and the Pentecost Sunday were as holy and sanctified as Saturday.

If you think this only applies to Israel, then that's the point. The Old Covenant was made with Israel, and NOT with the Gentiles.

Look at Exodus 31:13, 16 and 17: "But as for you, speak to the sons of Israel, saying, 'You shall surely observe My sabbaths; for this is a sign between Me and you throughout your generations, that you may know that I am the Lord who sanctifies you....So the sons of Israel shall observe the sabbath, to celebrate the sabbath throughout their generations as a perpetual covenant. It is a sign between Me and the sons of Israel forever.."

I don't mind talking about her...I believe she was a good woman who loved Jesus. I think she wrote a lot of thought-provoking things. I just want to make it clear that her writings are NOT on level with the Bible. There have been many Christian writers that are admired for their eloquence, and how their writings draw us closer to God and point us in the right direction on our Christian journey. But we should never lift them to a level equal to or above the Bible. I just believe that Ellen White had some very pertinent things to say about the times we're living in, and that they make sense when you study them out in the Bible. But I'm not going to force that belief on anyone. We should all study for ourselves and weigh the evidence.

I appreciate your dedication to Bible study, mailmandan, because I think it's good to study and think about these things rather than simply going by traditions. I don't take offense at your disagreement, and I hope you won't take offense at mine. There are just some points that I wanted to talk about.

"The Sabbath was not offered to all the nations. It was given to the nation of Israel. Look at Deuteronomy 5:1-15 which gives the commandments to Israel. 2 The Lord our God made a covenant with us in Horeb. 3 The Lord did not make this covenant with our fathers, but with us, those who are here today, all of us who are alive.

...

Of course Jesus kept the Sabbath. He was born under the law (Galatians 4:4) and His disciples lived under the dispensation of law, prior to the death of Jesus. There was a transition from law to grace. (Hebrews 9:16-17) Where does the Bible say that the Sabbath was established at Creation? If every man from Adam to Moses kept the Sabbath, why is the Hebrew word for the weekly Sabbath found in the ten commandments, never found in the book of Genesis? Why is no one before Moses ever being told to keep the Sabbath? Why are there no examples of anyone keeping the Sabbath? Why were the Patriarchs never instructed about he Sabbath, but were instructed regarding: offerings: Gen 4:3-4, Altars Gen 8:20, Priests: Gen 14:18, Tithes: Genesis 14:20, Circumcision: Genesis 17:10, Marriage: Genesis 2:24 & Genesis 34:9. Why would God leave out the Sabbath command? Although God's rest on the seventh day (Genesis 2:3) did foreshadow a future Sabbath law, there is no Biblical record of the Sabbath before the children of Israel left the land of Egypt. *Nowhere in Scripture is there any hint that Sabbath keeping was practiced from Adam to Moses."

But why are the other commandments still in force? The law (explained in the Ten Commandments) was always there in spirit, it was just being unfolded and laid out at Mount Sinai. Since the Sabbath was established at Creation week, then why would God have to tell the fathers about it? They already knew what Adam and Eve knew. The reason Moses had to lay out the Ten Commandments to the Israelites was that their time in Egypt had caused them to lose sight of how God wants us to live. God said to "Remember the Sabbath day, to keep it holy..." The Sabbath has always been there, we're just inclined to forget it.


"An unbiased reading of Colossians 2:16 will show that this is talking about not just "ceremonial Sabbaths." The words "ton sabbaton" or "sabbath days"; are the same words translated "Sabbath day" in Exodus 20:8 in the Septuagint (the Jewish translation of the Old Testament into Greek).

Look at Paul's reasoning, "Let no one judge you regarding a,

festival - yearly Sabbaths,
a new moon - monthly Sabbaths,
or a Sabbath day - weekly Sabbaths (or if you wish Sabbath days)"
CHRIST, he goes on to say is the "Substance", these things were shadows."


But the weekly Sabbath can't be a "shadow of things to come," as well as being established at Creation and part of the Ten Commandments. The ceremonial days, months, seasons, and years were all pointing forward to their fulfillment in Jesus. But the Ten Commandments are the principles that God builds His kingdom on. I believe that Jesus fulfills the Sabbath, but as the Lord who sanctifies us. He only explained the Sabbath more perfectly when He was alive on earth--He never did away with it. The Sabbath is a "sign" of His Creation and also His redemption. If we try to make our own memorial day, in a way we're saying that we can save ourselves by our own customs, instead of making the Lord of heaven and earth our focus. He established the Sabbath before sin ever existed--so how could it be bondage to keep the Sabbath as God Himself did?

The bondage comes when we believe that we can save ourselves by doing that. We are not saved by worshipping God on a particular day. We are saved by Jesus alone, and when He saves us, He sanctifies us to become like Him. He said, "If you love me, keep my commandments" (John 14:15). Love and faith produce devotion to God's heavenly principles, which are laid out in the Ten Commandments. "He that saith, I know him, and keepeth not his commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him." (1 John 2:4)

How does that work out with the faith vs. works issue? The whole crux is that we can't keep the law or save ourselves on our own. Only Jesus can do that. Anything that we do is based on His righteousness, not our own. A Christian who lies, steals, and murders is not reflecting Christ's character, but when you see someone being kind, forgiving, generous, and humble--you know that person has been with Jesus. That's how faith works. Faith turns into action, but the actions do not save us. They are not the root of salvation, but the fruits of it.

"Sabbatarians often ask for one text in the Bible that commands Sunday worship and here it is:

LEVITICUS 23:5-11 - Look at verse 11: "'And he shall wave the sheaf before the Lord for you to be accepted; on the day after the sabbath the priest shall wave it.'" The day after the Sabbath is Sunday.

Read on specifically looking at Leviticus 23:15 - "'You shall also count for yourselves from the day after the sabbath, from the day when you brought in the sheaf of the wave offering; there shall be seven complete sabbaths. You shall count fifty days to the DAY AFTER THE SEVENTH SABBATH; then you shall present a new grain offering to the Lord.'" This is the Feast of Pentecost. It was one of the compulsory feasts of Israel."

You can worship on Sunday, but that doesn't make it God's hallowed day of His authority over creation and redemption. There is only one day that God made holy, and it was made holy before sin, before Israelites, before SDAs ever existed. Just as Adam and Eve were joined together in marriage at Creation (Gen. 2:22-25), the Sabbath was established as a sign between God and humanity.

"For in six days the Lord made heaven and earth, the sea, and all that in them is, and rested the seventh day: wherefore the Lord blessed the sabbath day, and hallowed it." (Ex. 20:11)

Even in Revelation 14:7 it says to "worship Him that made heaven, and earth, and the sea, and the fountains of waters." This language points back not only to the 4th commandment in Ex. 20:11, but also to Genesis. That is why the Sabbath is such an important point of interest as we near the end of time, because God is calling us back to the type of worship He created at the very beginning.

Thank you for being reasonable with study and thought, and not just attacking. I really appreciate it, and I pray God leads us both in our understanding of Him.

Starflower did you look at the post from Brother Dan I linked you to?

Here it is again: https://christianchat.com/bible-discussion-forum/seventh-day-adventists.181765/page-11#post-3807893

btw: I doubt my 24hours a day gas station shop thats next to me is going to stop being open on sundays.

Its the new era of sabbaths fitting for the new generation of Christ, as children of light .The first day.. let there be light.

The word sabbath which means rest is not a time sensitive word .It was simply added to . Its easy to see the word rest(sabbath) does not mean bi-weekly.

Again the ceremonial law that went from eating once on the sabbath cooked the day before as a ceremonial laws was changed by the Kosher process (oral tradition of men) to three meals a day and many other new traditions were added like the distance a person could walk making the word of God without effect. .The Pharisee wanted to be one up on the others in false pride said he fast twice of the Sabbath (singular)

Luke 18:11-13 King James Version (KJV)The Pharisee stood and prayed thus with himself, God, I thank thee, that I am not as other men are, extortioners, unjust, adulterers, or even as this publican. I fast twice in the week, (on the Sabbath) I give tithes of all that I possess. And the publican, standing afar off, would not lift up so much as his eyes unto heaven, but smote upon his breast, saying, God be merciful to me a sinner.

Yes, thank you. I saw it and replied to it.

like physical circumcision, for example?

indisputably this is a commandment that predates the law.
it takes precedence over sabbath observance - John 7:23
i am sure i don't need to repost all the very clear instruction in the NT that it is not however required of us, and can in fact be symbolic of rejecting Christ and making His sacrifice of no effect.

conundrum?
it is observed spiritually in us, a circumcision not by human hands.

what do these facts about circumcision, which is the sign of the Abrahamic covenant, tell us about sabbath observance - which is a sign of the Sinaitic covenant?

Its true God made the seventh day and He rested on it. I dont see anything wrong with keeping the .sabbath and doing no work on that day...which is today you dont have to be an SDA to recognise this.
The thing is if you honoring God you wouldnt force others to work on the weekend as well.

I'm afraid I don't understand your line of reasoning. It's true we have to be humble and see ourselves as great sinners, and that keeping Sabbath or fasting has no weight in terms of crafting our own righteousness. But I believe that the Sabbath is a time-sensitive word. Why else would God specifically designate the seventh day in Genesis 2 and Exodus 20 when He spoke of His day of rest? We find rest in Jesus, and He invites us to come every day of the week for this rest. But His Sabbath is a gift of unique significance--it is His crowning jewel of Creation, and I believe He invites us to meet with Him in a special way on this day.

Yes, it's a day of rest. I believe that God intended it for a day of rest and restoration, and that is why He invites us to come fellowship and worship Him on this day, as Adam and Eve did in Genesis. It's a day for reconnecting with your Creator, and while I don't think you have to attend church to connect with God, I think that it's a Biblically-sanctioned way to worship Him and fellowship with other believers. Jesus and the disciples attended the synagogue on the Sabbath, and as long as attending church honors God and draws your mind to Him, I believe that's what the essence of the Sabbath is about. That's why the OT had guidelines for keeping the Sabbath--it was all about keeping the day holy as God envisioned it when He "hallowed" it, and it's all about getting nearer to the Savior who redeemed us. If Sabbath isn't doing that, then it's not a true day of rest and worship.

The Millerites were the followers of the teachings of William Miller, who in 1833 first shared publicly his belief that the Second Advent of Jesus Christ would occur in roughly the year 1843–1844. Coming during the Second Great Awakening, his beliefs were taken as predictions, spread widely, and were believed by many, leading to the Great Disappointment.

Miller was a prosperous farmer, a Baptist lay preacher, and student of the Bible, living in northeastern New York. Miller spent years of intensive study of symbolic meaning of the prophecies of Daniel, especially Daniel 8:14 (Unto two thousand and three hundred days; then shall the sanctuary be cleansed), the 2300 day prophecy.[1]

Miller believed that the cleansing of the sanctuary represented the Earth's destruction by fire at Christ's Second Coming. Using the year-day method of prophetic interpretation, Miller became convinced that the 2,300-day period started in 457 BC with the decree to rebuild Jerusalem by Artaxerxes I of Persia. Simple calculation then indicated that this period would end about 1843.[specify] In September 1822, Miller formally stated his conclusions in a twenty-point document, including article 15, "I believe that the second coming of Jesus Christ is near, even at the door, even within twenty-one years,—on or before 1843."[1] This document remained private for many years.

Miller did eventually share his views, first to a few friends privately and later to some ministerial acquaintances. Initially he was disappointed at the lack of response from those he spoke to. "To my astonishment, I found very few who listened with any interest. Occasionally, one would see the force of the evidence, but the great majority passed it by as an idle tale."[2]

Miller states that he began his public lecturing in the village of Dresden, Washington County, New York, some 16 miles from his home, on "the first Sabbath in August 1833."[3] However, as Sylvester Bliss points out, "The printed article from which this is copied was written in 1845. By an examination of his correspondence, it appears that he must have begun to lecture in August 1831. So that this date is a mistake of the printer or an error in Mr. Miller's memory."[1]

In 1832, Miller submitted a series of sixteen articles to the Vermont Telegraph—a Baptist paper. The first of these was published on May 15, and Miller writes of the public's response, "I began to be flooded with letters of inquiry respecting my views, and visitors flocked to converse with me on the subject."[4] In 1834, unable to personally comply with many of the urgent requests for information and the invitations to travel and preach that he received, Miller published a synopsis of his teachings in a "little tract of 64 pages." These he "...scattered, the most of them gratuitously, sending them in reply to letters of inquiry and to places which I could not visit."[5]

Left Behind is a series of 16 best-selling religious novels by Tim LaHaye and Jerry B. Jenkins, dealing with Christian dispensationalist End Times:

You know google is a wonderful thing if you have questions you can google it and find the answers. Left Behind has nothing to do with SDA.

There is no reason to believe that the actual mark of the beast is not real. Perhaps those that God has sealed is not readily visible but the mark of the beast is definitely real and visible. Not everything in the book of Revelation is figurative but a lot is actual and will happen as so stated.

I read the first 9 years ago but then stalled and haven't read any since. Kind of cloying but highly entertaining. You are right in that Left Behind has nothing to do with SDA.

I know many Catholics and member of the SDA and not once heard a private revelation that was claimed to be from God. Sabbath is very much a time sensitive word because it occurs every 7th day on Saturday. Occasionally, there is also a high Sabbath too. Not at all sure what Mary has to do with anything that is related to this topic.

Thank you for your honest reply to my post. In my estimation you are certainly on the right spiritual track. Oh, thanks for not putting me on ignore either.

Mary was used as a negative example.

The Bible speaks of two kinds of sabbaths

The ceremonial Sabbath as a shadow is used once a week .A day set aside when a person can perform the fast (getting the gospel out into the world so that we can be heard on high) . The true unseen Sabbath which is not part of the shadow, Is anytime we mix faith in what we do hear by believing God and therefore do not harden our hearts indicating we have believed the gospel as the true fast .And not kind of fast the apostles at first believed was the way of being heard on high they simply did not eat. For he that is entered into his Sabbath , he also hath ceased from his own works, as God did from his.

As always Sabbath shadows point to the true unseen substance.

Hebrews 4:1-7 King James Version (KJV) Let us therefore fear, lest, a promise being left us of entering into his rest, any of you should seem to come short of it. For unto us was the gospel preached, as well as unto them: but the word preached did not profit them, not being mixed with faith in them that heard it. For we which have believed do enter into rest, as he said, As I have sworn in my wrath, if they shall enter into my rest: although the works were finished from the foundation of the world.For he spake in a certain place of the seventh day on this wise, And God did rest the seventh day from all his works.And in this place again, If they shall enter into my rest.
Seeing therefore it remaineth that some must enter therein, and they to whom it was first preached entered not in because of unbelief:Again, he limiteth a certain day, saying in David, To day,(non time sensitive) after so long a time; as it is said, To day if ye will hear his voice, harden not your hearts.

The true sabbath is not time sensitive and we are not to judge shadows of the true.

Private revelations are the same as private interpretations or personal commentaries everyone has one like fingerprints . Without the use of private revelations coming from what they call the mystics the Catholics have no foundation to add to the word of God.

Their foundation is not built alone on all things written in the law and the prophets . But rather they serve a law of the father as oral traditions of men that make the word of God without effect .

You could say their private revelations as private interpretations rise above that which is written . The Bible in the hand of a Catholic is useless without what they call apostolic succession and there private interpretation And is why sola scriptura (all things written in the law and the prophets was successful in brining about the fifteenth century reformation as it did according to the law of the father as unbelieving Jews the first century reformation.

We can see how that works in the book of the law of the fathers #80 below

II. THE RELATIONSHIP BETWEEN TRADITION AND SACRED SCRIPTURE

One common source. . .

#80 "Sacred Tradition and Sacred Scripture, then, are bound closely together, and communicate one with the other. For both of them, flowing out from the same divine well-spring, come together in some fashion to form one thing, and move towards the same goal."40 Each of them makes present and fruitful in the Church the mystery of Christ, who promised to remain with his own "always, to the close of the age".41