Not By Works

Hi TT,

It seems to me you believe some people are pretending something. The reason for being anonymous, is so in
a public place we can share in safety, and talk about things of interest without victimisation.
But you are suggesting victimisation.

And you talk about pretending. Without transformation into the likeness of Christ we have no hope.
Paul talks about this process in 2 places

Do not conform any longer to the pattern of this world, but be transformed by the renewing of your mind. Then you will be able to test and approve what God's will is--his good, pleasing and perfect will.
Rom 12:2

And we, who with unveiled faces all reflect the Lord's glory, are being transformed into his likeness with ever-increasing glory, which comes from the Lord, who is the Spirit
2 Cor 3:18

It is becoming clearer that you want to choose to stay as you are and not change.
Repentance and confession is a about change.

John the Baptist criticised the teachers of the law for not showing change.

But when he saw many of the Pharisees and Sadducees coming to where he was baptizing, he said to them: "You brood of vipers! Who warned you to flee from the coming wrath?
Produce fruit in keeping with repentance.
Matt 3:7-8

For, "Whoever would love life and see good days must keep his tongue from evil and his lips from deceitful speech.
He must turn from evil and do good; he must seek peace and pursue it.
1 Peter 3:10-11

You cannot walk with God without becoming like Him inside ourselves.

There is an idea, sinners can stay sinners in behaviour, speech and conduct, the just have to believe
Jesus is the son of God, and all the theology and they are eternally saved.

However you slice this theology, it has always been a part of religion and its weakness.
A pedophile can still be a pedophile, a rapest still a rapest, a murderer still a murderer, a thief still
a thief, a liar still a liar, a slave trader still a slave trader.

But the apostles said no.

The acts of the sinful nature are obvious: sexual immorality, impurity and debauchery;
idolatry and witchcraft; hatred, discord, jealousy, fits of rage, selfish ambition, dissensions, factions
and envy; drunkenness, orgies, and the like. I warn you, as I did before, that those who live like this will not inherit the kingdom of God.
Gal 5:19-22

So imagine as a sinner you behave above.
Paul is then saying you are not saved.

I listen to Christ and the apostles and the prophets. This has eternal significance.

My friend, I feel for you.
Of all the people here, you will probably be going to meet the Lord sooner than any of us.

I do not know your life or history. I just lay before you, the vision Christ gives us.

And I heard a loud voice from the throne saying, "Now the dwelling of God is with men, and he will live with them. They will be his people, and God himself will be with them and be their God.
He will wipe every tear from their eyes. There will be no more death or mourning or crying or pain, for the old order of things has passed away."
He who was seated on the throne said, "I am making everything new!" Then he said, "Write this down, for these words are trustworthy and true."
Rev 21:3-5

So I declared on oath in my anger, 'They shall never enter my rest.'"
See to it, brothers, that none of you has a sinful, unbelieving heart that turns away from the living God.
But encourage one another daily, as long as it is called Today, so that none of you may be hardened by sin's deceitfulness.
Heb 3:11-13

Hebrews is declaring a sinful unbelieving heart shall not enter heaven.
So I pray, dear brother, that you find a place where God can wash you clean, that love can be
a part of your life as you praise God and enter into His Kingdom.

Clarity.

We must walk like Jesus

Whoever claims to live in him must walk as Jesus did.
1 John 2:6

Let us think a little about this. John had walked with Jesus for 3 years. He had day in, day out
walked with the perfect man, sinless, God himself. John thought Jesus was just a teacher, a prophet
for He could not be the Father or they would die.

So John knew how it was possible to walk as Jesus did because he had seen it.
He did not think this was impossible or so far the imagination of men as some have said.

Anyone who claims to be in the light but hates his brother is still in the darkness.
Whoever loves his brother lives in the light, and there is nothing in him to make him stumble.
But whoever hates his brother is in the darkness and walks around in the darkness; he does not know where he is going, because the darkness has blinded him.
1 John 2:9-11

John is talking about loving one another. Do you love me and others who testify to the Lord?

And what is clear the call to righteousness, the call to repentance is falling on deaf ears, and ears that
claim to know Jesus the Son of God and His preaching. And we are here because the Lord is unbelievably
patient, and wants a testimony from His people of His word, the true fruit of the Kingdom of God.

And those who stand against His word are like chaff burnt in the fire as if they never existed.

John answered them all, "I baptize you with water. But one more powerful than I will come, the thongs of whose sandals I am not worthy to untie. He will baptize you with the Holy Spirit and with fire.
His winnowing fork is in his hand to clear his threshing floor and to gather the wheat into his barn, but he will burn up the chaff with unquenchable fire."
Luke 3:16-17

When you mention me,,,could you please tag me so I know what you're saying about me.
That would be the courteous thing to do,,,,besides which there may be a site rule about this.

As to your preoccupation with my being here....this is an open forum and is open to all who wish to join. I'm sorry if I disturb you, but here I am....

And as to an IP address....if you know what that is and how to change it...kudos to you.
At least if YOU are ever banned PERMANENTLY, you'll know how to get back in....
But of course, being a good Christian, you wouldn't take advantage of your computer knowledge.

I agree with the above.

There does seem to be some disagreement here on very basic Christianity.
Of all the churches I personally have attended (only 2 permanently) the obedience to God has always been stressed.

I have heard a couple of preachers on YouTube state that once we are saved we can never be lost again, no matter what sin or sins we commit. This was distressing to hear and maybe some get their theology lessons from the internet? I don't know.

If we claim to know the N.T. then we should all know the same concepts.
I could understand how Calvinism could be understood from the N.T. although if one takes into account the context, it could easily be denied.

However, I CANNOT understand how anyone could come away from the N.T. with the idea that they do NOT have to conform to the likeness of Jesus.

One member here has stated, sarcastically, that we want to become deity....showing a total lack of understanding of Jesus' teachings.

This saddens me. If we could only grasp what a difficult ministry Jesus had, and its end.

When God moves

Our civilisation is based on Jesus and His concepts.
12 apostles, 3 years, a stunning weak, one resurrection and the world changed, the Kingdom of God came to earth.

How deep is the unbelief in the heart of man?

I admit my friends, I myself do not know the end of this unbelief.
I can speak for a whole day, and only touch the surface, which I did with a loving brother yesterday.

And I am still learning, bowing my knee and beginning to see.
We are the word of God springing forth from our lips, the praise of a Holy, pure people, redeemed by
His precious blood, an eternal flame that will walk into heaven.

And in this we can but wonder how God the Lord of All brought this about.
But that is His gospel and His promise and His fulfilment and none can stand against it.
So if you try and oppose Him or His word, it is like a grain of sand on the beach opposing an ocean.
Irrelevant.

What do you mean you think TT will be meeting the LORD before any of us ?...
Only God knows when we take our last breath , and yours could be anytime soon like mine...
Are you using TT sickness against him , please tell me I am wrong because otherwise that is a terrible thing to say ...xox...

I am saying we are all in the hands of the Lord, and in all our struggles we need to know His presence.
Often through sickness, we gain a sense of our mortality, our vulnerability, our frailty.

I have found in my darkest hours, there the Lord has been with me, beside me, showing me my needs
and how He supplies. Have you not also experienced the Kingdom of heaven touching your heart in
this way? It is a great joy to know His touch. Paul put it like this

I want to know Christ and the power of his resurrection and the fellowship of sharing in his sufferings, becoming like him in his death,
and so, somehow, to attain to the resurrection from the dead.
Phil 3:10-11

The presence of the Lord in these times of difficulty, have often meant I miss them, which seems so wrong.
Yet when we see the superficial nature of life and meaning and grasp the eternal nature of the Kingdom and
the cross, we seem to bridge from the mortal into the eternal.

The LORD is my shepherd, I shall not be in want.

He makes me lie down in green pastures, he leads me beside quiet waters,

he restores my soul. He guides me in paths of righteousness for his name's sake.

Even though I walk through the valley of the shadow of death, I will fear no evil,

for you are with me; your rod and your staff, they comfort me.

You prepare a table before me in the presence of my enemies. You anoint my head with oil; my cup overflows.

Surely goodness and love will follow me all the days of my life, and I will dwell in the house of the LORD forever.

Psalm 23:1-6

There is a point were things become farce, not because the subject is not serious, but when
really stupid things are said which are obviously stupid, not just a little bit stupid like
totally not even worthy of anything but laughter.

When you go into a hospital for the mentally insane, you meet Jesus, Hitler, Napoleon

There are guys who claim they can control the weather, others that their words predict
their future, that the aura round a person speaks about their soul.

So a put down saying believers think they are Jesus with His status is the same idea.

But when Jesus says He will put us on His throne beside Him if we overcome, now that
is being exalted by the Son into a place we can barely imagine.

Now who would mock the word of God, or the real blessing He will bring His people.


Here I am! I stand at the door and knock. If anyone hears my voice and opens the door,
I will come in and eat with him, and he with me.
To him who overcomes, I will give the right to sit with me on my throne, just as I
overcame and sat down with my Father on his throne.
Rev 3:20-21

You may mock spirits that speak, but you know His coming judgement, and these tools
you control, are of no import against the Hand of the Lord. So be gone, in
the Name of Jesus Christ of Nazareth.

How could it have nothing to do with Catholicism when they make the same argument about works of the law and good works? Other works-salvationists make the same argument that we are saved by "these" works and just not "those" works and here is an example below from a statement made by someone who attends the church of Christ:

"It is works of obedience that help to save us and not works of the law or works of merit."

The N.T. speaks against works in general AS THE BASIS OR MEANS BY WHICH WE RECEIVE ETERNAL LIFE. Christ saves us through faith based on the merits of His finished work of redemption alone and NOT based on the merits of our works. Titus 3:5 - not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to His mercy He saved us, through the washing of regeneration and renewing of the Holy Spirit. 2 Timothy 1:9 - who has saved us and called us with a holy calling, not according to our works, but according to His own purpose and grace which was given to us in Christ Jesus before time began. So works are not merely limited to specific works of the law, but works in general and you cannot dissect good works from the law (Matthew 22:37-40)

This covers everything. Which good works are "completely detached" from loving God and our neighbor as ourself? The bases are all covered.

When it comes to the moral aspect of the law, you cannot dissect good works from the law. In James 2:15-16, the example of a "work" that James gives is: "If a brother or sister is naked and destitute of daily food, and one of you says to them, "Depart in peace, be warmed and filled," but you do not give them the things which are needed for the body, what does it profit?" To give a brother or sister these things needed for the body would certainly be a "good work" yet to neglect such a brother or sister and not give them the things needed for the body is to break the second great commandment "love your neighbor as yourself" (Matthew 22:39) as found written in the law of Moses (Leviticus 19:18).

In Matthew 22:37-40, we read: Jesus said to him, 'You shall love the Lord your God with all your heart, with all your soul, and with all your mind.' This is the first and great commandment. And the second is like it: 'You shall love your neighbor as yourself.' On these two commandments hang all the Law and the Prophets. So please explain to me, which good works could a Christian do which are "completely detached" from these two great commandments which are found in the law of Moses? (Deuteronomy 6:5; Leviticus 19:18).

I'm not speaking against good works as the FRUIT of salvation, but only as the ROOT of salvation. We are saved FOR good works and NOT BY good works (Ephesians 2:8-10). You are still hung up on type 2 works salvation.

Hi MMD,

I all sincerity, I do not understand the mocking that is occurring here on this thread.
Is it possible that the enemy is prompting many to oppose the very word of God, to try and rip holes in His
revelation, and then claim some victory.

I appreciate your kind heart and desire for truth. The words I have shared are basic faith and following Jesus.

My approach is to merely ask what is possible and wonder where the truth lies amongst different ideas.
And the idea about "mental assent" is important.

When I was alone once as a teenager, thinking about God, I knew scripture, I knew the gospel, I had repented
yet it felt like a mental assent. It felt like I was passive waiting for something to happen, and yet nothing did.

I then stood up and started to praise God. In my heart and mind it was like something exploded in joy and
response. My confession seemed like a spiritual confirmation of something in my mind.

Still to this day, I can but say this is what happened, and encourage others to learn praise as a statement of
faith, of love, of eternity into the realm of this world.

So when I am told I know nothing, am not saved, deceived, cursed doubly, I kind of laugh.
My walk has been slow, like a snail, each step, working through experiences, seeing a change, wondering why
and then learning another reality. I have wondered why I am as I am, a life lived slowly walking.

But now I know. I see it demonstrated here. Like waves tossed around, throwing truth and eternal realities
like they are leaves in autumn, that can be shifted and burnt like they are nothing. But it is wealth, security
and prosperity that creates these illusions. So God bless you, and may we walk and encourage one another
as we partner with Jesus, full of the Holy Spirit and learn more of Him, and encourage one another, Amen.

Not one of these passages of scripture above teach that we are saved BY works. Good works are the fruit, by product and demonstrative evidence of authentic faith in Christ, but not the essence of faith and not the means of our salvation.

*In regards to James 2:14-26, which seems to be the main passage of scripture that works-salvationists use to try and support salvation by works, see post #808 from the link below:

https://christianchat.com/bible-dis...saved-always-saved.136509/page-41#post3374477

I have for many years talked with fellow believers about such concepts.
What are works, what is faith?

Works are something that relates to actions, like sins, but that bring blessing, help, eternity and love rather
than destruction harm and death.

We all accept in the protestant confession our root in faith in Jesus.
But the question posed by extreme groups is works can be ignored, or even absent totally.

So for a meaningful discussion we need to agree it is the extremes we are talking about.
As James says, faith without works is dead.
Or love cannot exist where people hate others.

It appears plainly some do not believe this, which is odd, because to my heart, they do not know God.
This is what the apostles who walked with Jesus testify as the working out of all their experiences.

I am aware though only those willing to hear will hear.

I met a man on a forum. Lets call him Alex. A true legalist who lived his life counting every action and condemning himself
constantly. A kind of perfectionist.

Love came and blew his mind. So Alex junked any morality and now stands against all who hold any
basis in walking in good things.

Interestingly, God has showed me who He is through His word and His Spirit, so I know He loves
and is embedded in the law, His law, and provides His victory.

But Alex now hates me, not a little, but with his whole being.
So love turned a believer into a hater, by taking legalism and turning it on its head.

Once Alexs heart turned cold and hard, no words or testimony can break through.
So we need to beware that the blessing of God does not become our snare and judgementalism
and superiority make us prisoners of the sin in our hearts.

I had a friend who had cancer. I had worked with him for a year before he was diagnosed.
We used as a group of work colleagues have a meal every now and then over 4 years.

I wondered if he would show any spiritual interest because of his change of circumstance.
At his funeral I met a mason lodge leader. Turns out he had shown interest in becoming
a mason.

So though I thought facing death might focus ones heart, it does not necessarily.
If ones heart is cold, shocks do not break in. What does is love and connections with people
you truly love and care about.

It is hard to see, even though God can be in the same room as us, we can still ignore Him.
Judas saw it all, and failed.

But what does that have to do with you assuming he will be with the LORD before us ?...xox...

that was low. can't believe the former peterjens said this about someone else. follow his steps? who's steps? certainly not Jesus.

The thing is you do not know of what I speak.
Are we walking in victory or walking to hang on to life?

Would you live differently if you knew tomorrow was your last?

In the Lord, those I walk with know I love them and desire to bring praise to His name.
If the Lord took you tomorrow what would you feel today? I would say, thank you Jesus
tomorrow I walk with the King of Kings, the Lord my Saviour.

It is easy to say lots of things that are pure heresy and darkness, yet what man hears means
nothing compared to the Living God and His great throne. How stand you my friend?

We bow to His word, because His word is eternal and has no end.