Showing your faith by your works

James and Paul didnt have two different gospels. they both taught the teachings of Jesus. James made it loud and clear faith with out works is not faith. Paul agrees when He says by faith we establish the law and they both obeyed the law. the only difference is they way they taught, James taught in the Hebrew way and Paul taught in the Greek, none the less they taught the same thing. the berean Jews even tested Pauls teachings against scripture, they checked out, sorry but Paul was not teaching a new religion.

Try reading Galatians 2, and tell me how you interpret the entire chapter.

its not going to undue James - faith without works is dead.
its not going to undue Jesus - He did not come to abolish the law.

you cant use one scripture to undue one you dont like. Jesus says we can not turn scripture aside.

I am not saying it, or anything else, undo those 2 points you are making. You are misinterpreting what you are reading.

I am saying that us Gentiles do not belong to the audience that Jesus and James was addressing those 2 points to. If you want to insist, then we will just agree to disagree.

wrong again, like a said before, the berean Jews tested Pauls teachings against scripture. if Paul was teaching something new there would be no reason to do that.
your picking and choosing which parts of the bible you want to follow, Jesus says not to do that.
the idea that Jesus was teaching to Jews, and only Jews doesnt work anyway. the Jews were an example to all nations, in other words whats good for the Jews is good for the nations.

Well there is not much point rehashing that distinction. If you are not convinced, you will probably never be. Its okay you are still saved.

For the interested, you can view this long discussion thread
https://christianchat.com/bible-discussion-forum/are-there-two-gospels-or-one.182029/

no one will ever convince me its ok to cherry pick the bible when Jesus specifically said DO NOT DO THAT.

I often see people post on here insisting that faith doesnt have anything to do with works.
Then it makes me wonder just what do they do with their faith. Do they just go to church on sunday, and all during the rest of the week make money for themselves, and spend it on holidays or another new car or something?

james writes in his letter 2:14-18

What doth it profit, my brethren, though a man say he hath faith, and have not works? Can faith save him? If a brother or sister be naked, and destitute of daily food, and one of you say to him, depart in peace, and be warm and filled, notwithstanding ye give them not those things which are needful to the body, what doth it profit? Even so, faith if it hath not works, is dead, being alone. Yea a man may say thou hast faith, and I have works, shew me thy faith without thy works, and and I will show thee my faith by my works.

So all those who insist thats on 'faith alone', is James, the brother of Jesus wrong? What works have you got to show your faith?



How many of you have brothers and sisters, homeless, naked, and starving and you turn a blind eye. What do you do with your extra clothing or do you hoard it all in an overflowing wardrobe. Do you buy heaps of food, cant eat it all and then dump it to landfill? Do you have household with spare bedrooms, yet they all taken up so that nobody else can stay in them. What does that profit you? What work do you do in your neighbourhood, or is it so wealthy that nobody else needs anything because they too busy admiring their reflections in their shiny new SUVs or motorhomes in their six car garages?

It's not nonsense if you know what faith is and how it works.
The difference between your pray and Jesus' is, He KNEW what the will of the Father was, you don't.
Jesus didn't ask the Father what His will was, He knew what was written of Him, and what He was sent to do.
You, on the other hand, are being like doubting Thomas. You are moved by what you see, feel, and experience, and use the outcome or end results to dictate what the will of the Father was or is.
For example, let's say you pray for yourself of a loved one for healing.
Since you don't know what the will of God is concerning your prayer for a specific request, you pray saying, "if it be you will Father, would you heal so and so?"
And from there, you use the end result, usually within a day or two, to determine what God's will is.
If the person gets better, then it was God's will for them to be healed, and if they get worse, then it wasn't.
Tell me if you can, where do you see any faith in all that nonsense?
The only thing you are doing is HOPING God will heal so and so, WISHING He grant you your request, but still WONDERING what He will do, because you don't know what His will is and because you don't believe some things written in the bible. You say you believe, but like most, you don't really.
God promises to heal THE BELIEVERS, NOT THE DOUBTERS.
Do you know what faith is and how it works?
What's the difference between hoping and biblical believing?
We all know God CAN do what we ask for, the big question is, not only WILL HE, but do we know He will?
To answer my questions above, hope thinks it will happen sometime in the future, where believing thinks it's done NOW, as in, present tense.
What is faith and how does it work?
In a nutshell, faith IS the very thing you desire.
And it works by acting on what you believe in your heart.
Romans 10:8-10 tells you how it works.
You either say what you believe and/or act on what you believe.
If you don't know what the will of your Father is, you cannot have any confidence or assurance He will grant your request. You will not be "fully persuaded" God will do anything, because you either don't know the promises of His word, and/or you don't believe them.
You also most likely don't believe you have anything to do with the outcome of your request or prayer to God, so in your eyes, there is no such thing as to whether faith works or not, it's all up to God. Right?
The truth is, faith works irrespective of what God's will is for us.
I'm not advocating bypassing God's will.
We should pray IN LINE with God's will BY PRAYING ACCORDING TO HIS WORD.
If you know what He said, and believe that, then you can pray according to God's will and not just your own.
What did you do to get saved?
Did you ask God, "if it be your will, would you save me, if I receive Jesus as my personal lord and savior?"
If you read the word of God and believe what is written as truth, then you won't wonder what God's will is, you will KNOW. You won't HOPE God saves you, you KNOW He will.
What if you didn't know, would God still save you?
No, because you didn't act on it in faith.
You have to know what the will of God is and what He said, in order for you to have any faith in God to fulfill His promise.

That whole reply I personally answer with a simple sentence. No matter what “you” want to take and add to the text or put your own spin on the text.

“By His grace He has changed me and I now want to follow His example, and not only did the “Man” Christ Jesus pray Gods will be done in His toughest hour, as an example top us, but when the disciples asked Hid to teach them how to pray, He specifically said pray like this-

“Our Father in heaven,
hallowed be your name.
Your kingdom come,
Your will be done,
on earth as it is in heaven.
Give us this day our daily bread,
and forgive us our debts,
as we also have forgiven our debtors.
And lead us not into temptation,
but deliver us from evil.”

So again on two occasions Jesus Christ our King commands and leads me by example specifically to pray to be in Gods. For you to say the opposite is true, is "nonsense" from my point of view, if I am understanding you correctly, and you're pretty clear. I also don't totally disagree with what you're saying about faith either, but when you tell me that praying "not my will but Your will be done", is wrong, or makes my faith worthless or something like this, I disagree. I'm also talking specifically about the Copeland style, "word of faith" type heretical nonsense that plays like God is a tool for our gain and to bring about "our will", I completely disagree with very strongly. Honestly it seems you are not really saying that, and again I agree with pretty much everything else you're saying, but this comment specifically

"If you say, "if it be your will...", in prayer to God, then again, you have no faith for whatever you prayed for",

I say who on earth are you to tell anyone what faith they have for any reason? Sorry but you don't get to just "declare" that, and demean those who pray to be in the will of our Father, the very purpose for which we are all created. I think more people need to pray less for their will, and pray more like this, more for Gods to be done, and our wills to line up with truth. But that is admittedly just my opinion, but what is not opinion is the fact you don't get to judge the faithfulness of others prayers the way you did in that one specific comment. That's my only point, I find that single idea completely wrong, and far beyond any of our abilities to even presume to know about another persons relationship with God. The same way I don't get to do that to you and how you pray to God. Me I'm personally going to follow what Jesus clearly teaches and demonstrates by example before what you tell me, but to be fair expect you to do the same, so if you think praying like that is wrong then by all means don't do it, but you don't get to tell me how to pray or how much the prayer means to God. You have to see that.

"If you say, "if it be your will...", in prayer to God, then again, you have no faith for whatever you prayed for

That whole reply I personally answer with a simple sentence. No matter what “you” want to take and add to the text or put your own spin on the text.

“By His grace He has changed me and I now want to follow His example, and not only did the “Man” Christ Jesus pray Gods will be done in His toughest hour, as an example top us, but when the disciples asked Hid to teach them how to pray, He specifically said pray like this-

“Our Father in heaven,
hallowed be your name.
Your kingdom come,
Your will be done,
on earth as it is in heaven.
Give us this day our daily bread,
and forgive us our debts,
as we also have forgiven our debtors.
And lead us not into temptation,
but deliver us from evil.”

So again on two occasions Jesus Christ our King commands and leads me by example specifically to pray to be in Gods. For you to say the opposite is true, is "nonsense" from my point of view, if I am understanding you correctly, and you're pretty clear. I also don't totally disagree with what you're saying about faith either, but when you tell me that praying "not my will but Your will be done", is wrong, or makes my faith worthless or something like this, I disagree. I'm also talking specifically about the Copeland style, "word of faith" type heretical nonsense that plays like God is a tool for our gain and to bring about "our will", I completely disagree with very strongly. Honestly it seems you are not really saying that, and again I agree with pretty much everything else you're saying, but this comment specifically

"If you say, "if it be your will...", in prayer to God, then again, you have no faith for whatever you prayed for",

I say who on earth are you to tell anyone what faith they have for any reason? Sorry but you don't get to just "declare" that, and demean those who pray to be in the will of our Father, the very purpose for which we are all created. I think more people need to pray less for their will, and pray more like this, more for Gods to be done, and our wills to line up with truth. But that is admittedly just my opinion, but what is not opinion is the fact you don't get to judge the faithfulness of others prayers the way you did in that one specific comment. That's my only point, I find that single idea completely wrong, and far beyond any of our abilities to even presume to know about another persons relationship with God. The same way I don't get to do that to you and how you pray to God. Me I'm personally going to follow what Jesus clearly teaches and demonstrates by example before what you tell me, but to be fair expect you to do the same, so if you think praying like that is wrong then by all means don't do it, but you don't get to tell me how to pray or how much the prayer means to God. You have to see that.

"I'm not advocating bypassing God's will.
We should pray IN LINE with God's will BY PRAYING ACCORDING TO HIS WORD."

The above statement is a direct quote from my post you replied to.
You misunderstood what I was saying. I'm not against knowing and praying for the will of God to be done, I'm for it and propagate the same.
Again, I do NOT agree with ignoring what God's will is nor should we try to do our own thing.
On the contrary, we should seek God's will, that we may have confidence in God to answer our prayers.
That is my whole point. If you don't know what His will is, then you cannot have any confidence God will grant you your request.

1Jn 5:14 And this is the confidence that we have in him, that, if we ask any thing according to his will, he heareth us:
1Jn 5:15 And if we know that he hear us, whatsoever we ask, we know that we have the petitions that we desired of him.

So I say again, in light of the above scripture, if you don't know what God's will is, you cannot have any confidence He will grant you your request.
Knowing what His will is, will allow you to have confidence. Not knowing, will prevent you from having confidence in God.
Thayer's definition of 'confidence' is, "free and fearless confidence, cheerful courage, boldness, assurance".
Definitions of the word confidence is, Freedom from doubt, full trust, belief in the powers, trustworthiness, or reliability of a person or thing, certitude, assurance.
A synonym to that is, having faith.
Asking God without KNOWING His will, is the same as hoping, wishing, and wondering what He will do. None of those inspires confidence.
That doesn't even come close to having fearless confidence, boldness, or assurance.
So, knowing the will of God before you ask for anything, to me, is very important for you to believe or have confidence for God to answer your request.
And based on my understanding of that and what faith is and how it works, I can say, in most cases, who has faith and who does not.
I can also say, at the very least, what we should NOT pray.
Any prayer that casts doubt on the subject, is obviously NOT of faith, and should not be prayed.
Doubt is not in the will of God. If it doesn't please Him, then it is not in His will.
For we know that faith is the ONLY way to please God, and not know what His will is, is not of faith.

Good points.

One thing we must keep in mind is that "faith is a work ".The moment a person attempts to separate it from a work the house of cards falls having nothing to bind the two together as one. No work...…. no faith.

It can get confusing at times. Faith, looking for the eternal understanding is mysterious as a work. Faith without the working of it are dead. Because in it effect it takes two to make one faith complete .A person must be careful how we say we hear..

Like the verse below. It might appear to some "if it be your will...", but rather Jesus was working with the father (Isaiah 53) asking that it only pass if the two work to together as one work of faith to make it complete.

Jesus praying out loud was for our benefit . He was already being faithful to the will of the father by asking for strength to finish the work he had begun . He always finishes or he does not begin to create as our Faithful Creator

In most case that I have experienced usually it has to with the idea God needing faith. Many say God does not need or have faith.

Makes the enemy grin as in "you're in". It was the goal of devil to take away the faith of two working together ,when mankind chose to do the pleasure of one seen .Instant gratification no faith needed in respect to God unseen.

What we need is. The faith of Christ, the Holy Spirit of God. Don't leave Earth without it

Matthew 26:39 And he went a little farther, and fell on his face, and prayed, saying, O my Father, if it be possible, let this cup pass from me: nevertheless not as I will, but as thou wilt.

Two wills working together as one mutual work of faith or wlls working in submission to one anther. The fathers the greater and the Sons that took the lower seat of humility Together they e rbig the peace of God that surpases our understanding.

Ephesians 4:5 One Lord, "one faith", one baptism,

Fair enough, and I tried to say that through the whole thing, that it was only that single thing I even felt the need to comment on because of it's attachment to false teachers. I just truly have a problem with the idea anyone thinks they can tell someone how they are supposed to speak to God. That was how I took it, but I see how you meant it and agree. Sorry if I came off too strong or anything, I just like to get strait to the point anymore, and when I see Jesus say "pray this way", then see a guy say "don't pray exactly like Jesus told us too because it really means this x..y..x..", and hope you can appreciate that. But see this is what I like, we actually listen to each other and respond to what is actually being said, instead of just labeling each other, then attacking the things I think you believe that you've never even actually ever said, yet you are "label" and we all know what they believe.

So I too believe God does give us that boldness and confidence to pray for and ask of Him knowing He will do it, but if you for 1 second think that at all excludes me from praying "but not my will but YOURS be done", full trusting in, and boldly knowing the He knows whats best for me SO much better than I do. When you get down to the core it's about Him, not "ME". Period. Again that's how I have grown to see it this far. Salvation only enables us to actually go out and glorify Him, I'm not born again to glorify me. In Him I am glorified, in Him I am bold, in Him I know who I can trust. Not me.

Even though I tell people, faith is having a confident assurance, that what we ask for will manifest, I don't actually see it that way.
I tell them that because that is what they understand it to be. Which is what I use to think as well.
I believe the KJV interpreted Hebrews 11:1 correctly, in that faith, being a noun, is a person, place, or thing.

Heb 11:1 Now faith is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen.

I see faith being the very thing we desire or ask for. Whether is be for a material thing or healing, it is the thing we envision as having. Not, will have some day, but having, as in, present tense.
James put it a different way.

Jas 2:26 For as the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without works is dead also.

James relates or connects the body to faith, and the spirit with works.
He shows faith as a person with a body, similar to our physical bodies or an animal, bird, or fish.
According to both Paul and James, every physical body requires a spirit to live of have life, even as faith requires a spirit to live.
Remove the spirit, and there goes the life.
Jesus put it another way.

Mar 4:24 And he said unto them, Take heed what ye hear: with what measure ye mete, it shall be measured to you: and unto you that hear shall more be given.
Mar 4:25 For he that hath, to him shall be given: and he that hath not, from him shall be taken even that which he hath.

Have what, and what shall be given?
How can you presently have something you don't really have, but will have or shall be given to you, sometime in the future?
Point being, if you ask for something and know it has been given, then you will act on that by doing a work that corresponds to the thing you believe you have, or the thing you know has been given to you.
God said, EVERYONE that asks, RECEIVES. NOT some, but EVERYONE.

Mat 7:11 If ye then, being evil, know how to give good gifts unto your children, how much more shall your Father which is in heaven give good things to them that ask him?

Is it a good thing we are asking for? Then we should have confidence in God's faithfulness to fulfill His promise to us.
That is some of what I see faith as being.

I hate to break this to you sir, but many here on CC consider me a heretic. One who teaches false doctrines and lies of the devil. One who twists scripture to make it say what I believe.
None of that bothers me, because I know different.
I know me, and what I am like, and if my conscience is clear, then I shouldn't try to change what I believe just to please those who are out for my hurt or to destroy me.
Given time, if you read more of my posts, I am sure you will see me as some others do.
But for now, it is nice we can agree on something.
A quick story about God's will and prayer.
Years ago, when gps's first came out, I had one that got fried in the summer heat on the dash of my vehicle.
So I bought another one, but it was a different kind.
I didn't like the new one as much as the old one I had, so I asked God if He would get me another one of the old ones, even though they had stopped making them, for about three years.
So, one day, I was driving down the freeway, when suddenly I had a strong prompting to take and exit.
I almost missed it, and had to swerve pretty hard to make the off ramp in time.
After I pulled off, I kept saying out loud, "why did I pull off here?"
So I pulled into a gas station, and when I went inside, what do you think I saw in the enclosed glass showcase?
The very gps I wanted and asked God for.
I never asked God if it was His will for me to have it or not. I just asked Him for it and expected Him to give it and though it took months before He led me to it, I still got what I asked for.
Why did I expect God to give it to me without asking Him if it was His will for me to have it or not?
Because my conscience didn't bother me when I asked and because I knew it was not a bad thing to ask for, even though it was for me and not someone else.
My wife did something similar in that she wanted two of something that was sold out after Christmas.
My daughter said she looked all over and there was only one left.
My wife said she asked God for two, so there will be two when she gets there.
She said when she got there, the store had two of the very thing she believed God for. And to my daughter's amazement, she said, that wasn't they earlier.
God gives to them who believe it is already given.

Man this is such a touchy issue for so many, and rightly so really, I mean we are dealing with the truth of all reality here right? I know I have found myself neck deep in this debate (works salvation vs. easy believeism) and have been told strait up that I am preaching works salvation because I say that "AS A RESULT OF" salvation, as in after we are save by grace through faith in Jesus, that being born again WILL product works. I honestly struggle to see how anyone who has been truly reborn of the Spirit can possible misunderstand or disagree this truth clearly written and described in the whole NT.

The message those I have had this debate with most recently seems to be "we still sin", "we will always sin", "Christian's still sin", "do you still sin". They come with this weak message that keeps the false convert in the dark thinking he is a Christian when he does not know Jesus, and has no idea what a Christian truly is. I say this firsthand, but they never give an inch or even try hear me when I say that I don't even think they are wrong in anything they're saying, technically, but it's the way they preach that makes this powerless message that you can be a Christian and never do anything for God. Why? I don't know at all, but to suggest one could meet his very Creator, could have his spirit brought to life and have it reconciled to His Spirit, forever changing the way you see and approach EVERYTHING in life, and not change. I strongly disagree. This "change" is what we call "works", and what I will forever proclaim WILL happen to ALL truly in Christ.

To be honest the way I see it is that one side see's salvation more as the "objective", the goal or "finish line", and the other see it for what it is, the very beginning of you being blessed with the ability to fulfill the very purpose for which you were created. If the God I serve draws you to Himself and by His grace and through Jesus blood gives you a brand new life, you will get very busy working for your Father in true peace and true joy, praising His name, and proclaiming His power to "save a wretch like me" to everyone that will listen, or can hear.8^)
In my opinion you will not be proclaiming mans power to resist God and do nothing for Him. It blows my mind ANY follower of Jesus would want to speak of Him in this way. I truly think it can only be because they have not yet truly seen the power of Jesus in their own lives, or maybe that's just the only way they've heard it preached, but this is just my opinion on the matter and the way I see it.

I agree with you and James though, we will work when we are saved because we now desire to, that's the whole point, be reborn into the kingdom to build the kingdom.