Twinkling of an eye

The Thessalonians were being wrongly convinced (by others) "that the Day of the Lord IS PRESENT" (2Th2:2 [this was perfectly REASONABLE to them because of their PRESENT and ONGOING, NEGATIVE experiences they were ENDURING, per 2Th1:4]), and in verse 3 Paul tells them WHY it is NOT SO:

"that day [the time period being referenced in the immediately-preceding verse, v.2!] will not be present if not shall have come THE DEPARTURE *FIRST*…" [ONE THING (noun-event from v.1) *FIRST*] ("*AND* the man of sin be revealed" which is the INITIAL "birth PANG [singular]"/the FIRST SEAL).

THEN it WILL INDEED "be present" to unfold upon the earth (and will involve ALL that the man of sin is slated to DO , below):

1) 2Th2:9a "whose COMING/ARRIVAL/PRESENCE..." (see also Dan9:27a[26]; and Matt24:4/Mk13:5 "G5100 - tis - 'A CERTAIN ONE']) [BEGINNING of the 7-yrs; when Jesus will "STAND to JUDGE" Isa3:13, Rev4-5, etc] ;

2) 2Th2:4 "who... sitteth in..." [MIDDLE of the 7 yrs];

3) 2Th2:8b "whom the Lord shall...destroy...") [END of the 7 yrs]


Paul is telling them how our Rapture will "fit" (time-wise) IN RELATION TO "the Day of the Lord [time period]" with its "judgments" and so forth...

"Paul is telling them how our Rapture will "fit" (time-wise) IN RELATION TO "the Day of the Lord [time period]" with its "judgments" and so forth..."

EDIT to add: and THAT "SEQUENCE" is referred to 3x in this 2Th2:3-9 passage, and is the same sequence 1Th4-5 also provided.

The departure??? Like ive said...those new books have an agenda. Back to the bible.

2 THES. 2 [1]Now we beseech you, brethren, by the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, and BY OUR GATHERING TOGETHER UNTO HIM, [2] That ye be not soon shaken in mind, or be troubled, neither by spirit, nor by word, nor by letter as from us, as that the day of Christ is at hand. [3] Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, EXCEPT THERE COME A FALLING AWAY FIRST, and that MAN OF SIN BE REVEALED, THE SON OF PERDITION; [4] WHO OPPOSETH AND EXALTETH HIMSELF ABOVE ALL THAT IS CALLED GOD, OR THAT IS WORSHIPPED; SO THAT HE AS GOD SITTETH IN THE TEMPLE OF GOD, SHEWING HIMSELF THAT HE IS GOD. [5] Remember ye not, that, when I was yet with you, I told you these things?

2THES.2 {a falling away} {bad guy exalts himself above all that is called God}
DANIEL 11 {many shall fall} {bad guy exalts himself above every God}

DANIEL 11 [32] And such as do wickedly against the covenant shall he corrupt by flatteries: but the people that do know their God shall be strong, and do exploits. [33] And THEY THAT UNDERSTAND AMONG THE PEOPLE SHALL INSTRUCT MANY: YET THEY SHALL FALL by the sword, and by flame, by captivity, and by spoil, many days. [34] Now WHEN THEY SHALL FALL, THEY SHALL BE HOLPEN WITH A LITTLE HELP: but many shall cleave to them with flatteries. [35] And SOME OF THEM OF UNDERSTANDING SHALL FALL, to try them, and to purge, and to make them white, even to the time of the end: because it is yet for a time appointed. [36] And the king shall do according to his will; and HE SHALL EXALT HIMSELF, AND MAGNIFY HIMSELF ABOVE EVERY GOD, and shall speak marvellous things against the God of gods, and shall prosper till the indignation be accomplished: for that that is determined shall be done.

verse 32, the word {covenant}={berit}. Same Hebrew word used pertaining to the covenant of the 10 commandments

So you see the falling away {not departure of 2Thes.2} in Daniel. In Daniel do you see ANYTHING that depicts a rapture? Nope! We know these scriptures are speaking of the same event as bad guy exalts himself above all Gods in both scriptures and this will happen only once. As you can plainly see its a falling away from the truth. It is not a rapture.

HOSEA 4 [3] Therefore shall the land mourn, and every one that dwelleth therein shall languish, with the beasts of the field, and with the fowls of heaven; yea, the fishes of the sea also shall be taken away. [4] Yet let no man strive, nor reprove another: for thy people are as they that strive with the priest. [5] Therefore shalt thou FALL IN THE DAY, and the prophet also shall FALL WITH THEE IN THE NIGHT, and I will destroy thy mother. [6] My people are destroyed for lack of knowledge: because thou hast rejected knowledge, I will also reject thee, that thou shalt be no priest to me: SEEING THOU HAST FORGOTTEN THE LAW OF THY GOD, I WILL ALSO FORGET THY CHILDREN.

Hosea 4 points out why they are falling way from the truth. They have forgotten Gods law.

In Hosea we see the land was mourning, they forgot God's law and then they were raptured

That whole departure argument is one of the most dishonest and weak arguments for a pre-trib rapture, I wish people would stop using it. Most pre-tribbers I know don't even use it.

Apostasia = leaving the faith, not a rapture.

Apostle = one sent with the faith to hear God. Not a rapture

Airó: to raise, take up, lift= Rapture

A few things (for now... I only have a minute here):

--the first seven English translations of the Bible (before the kjv) translated it as "the departing [noun]," or "the departure [noun]"

--Liddell and Scott's Greek-English Lexicon has "departure" listed under its definitions

--Kenneth S. Wuest (a Greek scholar) demonstrates how "departure" is the basic meaning of the word (this is why elsewhere, where used, surrounding words are added to tell "WHAT KIND" of "departure," and is another reason why we don't automatically assume that here it means "a departure FROM MOSES" as its usage in Acts)

--in other writings of that (same) era, it is used in reference to "the departing of a fever," and "the departure of a boat from a dock," so it is indeed a completely legitimate definition and usage (that is, a geographical/spatial "departure"... THAT kind)

--it makes the best sense of the text (considering also that in every place where the phrase "IN THAT DAY" is used in the same contexts as the phrase "the day of the Lord," they refer to the SAME period of time; and THIS CONTEXT has both phrases, demonstrating that it is indeed a period of time [before His Own arrival/return])

--according to grammarians, the word itself ('apostasia' ), the usage of the definite article ('the') is not necessary (typically), thus draws our attention to WHY it is used here

--the phrase in 2Th2:2 is "...that the day of the Lord IS PRESENT" (this is what they were wrongly being convinced of, by others) and it makes no sense that they would be distraught over our Lord's Return/PRESENCE; additionally, if the DOTL were merely a singular 24-hr day (some do believe this) Paul would not have had sufficient TIME to: hear of their distressed minds, taken the time to compose a letter, and have it delivered to them, before the 24-hr day (they were distraught over) would have well-passed, and they would have seen for themselves that, ta da!", it wasn't "PRESENT" after all [no need for a letter regarding that!]; and they were under no such delusion that "the Rapture" had taken place (without them), all they had to do was look around to disprove such a notion (had THAT been it... but it wasn't that!)


Much more, but that's all I have time for, ATM.

Dispensation teaching is quite easy to understand to me. All you have to accept is that replacement theology is incorrect, the Gentile Church has not replaced the Jews in God's eyes.

The Gentiles are only included in the covenant ahead of time, because of the Jew rejected their Gospel. If the Jews had not rejected Stephen, the Gentiles will only be saved, after ALL the Jews accepted.

But because we are in the age of Grace now, the Gentile church will be spared from the tribulation, thru the rapture. I used to think the first view too. I guess in the flesh, I would like to "test how faithful" I can remain even in the midst of the tribulation, even if I cannot buy or sell if I reject the 666 mark. Now that I am taught that the Gentile Church is saved from wrath, I am of course happier.

There is no difference in the gentile and jew who is not ready to meet Christ. It will not be pleasant for those who are not raptured.

Yes, I was referring to the Gentile Church. Those who have accepted Jesus as their sin substitute.

Gentiles who did not accept will have to face the Tribulation too.

Consider also (the distinctions here):

--in Matthew 25:31-34 [esp v.34] is says (regarding "the Sheep [of the nations (plural)]" at the time of His Second Coming to the earth, who enter the earthly MK time period in their mortal bodies), "Come, ye BLESSED of My Father, inherit the kingdom HAVING BEEN PREPARED [perfect participle] for you FROM [G575 - apo] the foundation of the world"

[in contrast to]

--John 14:2 (your passage), "I go [present indicative] TO PREPARE a place for you..." [this form of the word "TO PREPARE" is used 4x]

Surely it does say the beast was permitted to make war against the church.

REVELATION 19 [7] Let us be glad and rejoice, and give honour to him: for the MARRIAGE OF THE LAMB is come, and his wife hath made herself ready. [8] And to her was granted that she should be arrayed in fine linen, clean and white: for the fine linen is the righteousness of SAINTS.

Marriage of the Lamb to the Saints

DANIEL 7 [27] And the kingdom and dominion, and the greatness of THE KINGDOM UNDER THE WHOLE HEAVEN, SHALL BE GIVEN TO THE PEOPLE OF THE SAINTS OF THE MOST HIGH, whose kingdom is an everlasting kingdom, and all dominions shall serve and obey him.

The kingdom given to the Saints

1 CORINTHIANS 1 [2] Unto the CHURCH OF GOD WHICH IS AT CORINTH, to them that are sanctified in Christ Jesus, CALLED TO BE SAINTS, with all that in every place call upon the name of Jesus Christ our Lord, both theirs and ours:

Church of the Corinthians that are called to be Saints

ROMANS 1 [7] To all that be in Rome, beloved of God, CALLED TO BE SAINTS: Grace to you and peace from God our Father, and the Lord Jesus Christ.

Church of the Romans that are called to be Saints

EPHESIANS 1 [1] Paul, an apostle of Jesus Christ by the will of God, TO THE SAINTS WHICH ARE AT EPHESUS, and to the faithful in Christ Jesus:

And again, the Ephesians are the Saints of God

COLOSSIANS 1 [1] Paul, an apostle of Jesus Christ by the will of God, and Timotheus our brother, [2] TO THE SAINTS and faithful brethren in Christ WHICH ARE AT COLOSSE: Grace be unto you, and peace, from God our Father and the Lord Jesus Christ.

The church of Colossians are the Saints

REVELATION 13 [3] And I saw one of his heads as it were wounded to death; and his deadly wound was healed: and all the world wondered after the beast. [4] And they worshipped the dragon which gave power unto the beast: and they worshipped the beast, saying, WHO IS LIKE UNTO THE BEAST? WHO IS ABLE TO MAKE WAR WITH HIM? [5] And there was given unto him a mouth speaking great things and blasphemies; and power was given unto him to continue forty and two months. [6] And he opened his mouth in blasphemy against God, to blaspheme his name, and his tabernacle, and them that dwell in heaven. [7] And IT WAS GIVEN UNTO HIM TO MAKE WAR WITH THE SAINTS, and to overcome them: and power was given him over all kindreds, and tongues, and nations.

Looky looky! Here we find the beast making war against Gods Saints. If you believe the above scriptures that say the Saints belong to the various churhes you gotta know they have not been raptured as the Rapturist claim. They claim the church will not confront the beast at all. Dilly Dilly!

We are in the tribulation .It began at the renting of the veil . The graves were opened the first resurrection began it work. The time of reformation has come.

God puts no difference between a Jew and a Gentile. Sin is sin.

He purifies the heart of all men by a work of His faith a labor of His love that he works in them, with them, to both will and do His good pleasure. We should do so without murmuring or complaining. Like what about my flesh does it profit? Christ said of his own Jewish flesh and blood (the temporal) it could never profit.

1 THES. 4 [16] For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and THE DEAD IN CHRIST SHALL RISE FIRST: [17] Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord. [18] Wherefore comfort one another with these words.

1COR.15 [51] Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but WE SHALL ALL BE CHANGED,[52] In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.[53] for this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality.

Will Job be amoung the dead in Christ who will be “changed” at the 1Cor.15 event?

1 CORINTHIANS 10[1] Moreover, brethren, I would not that ye should be ignorant, how that all OUR FATHERS were under the cloud, and all passed through the sea; [2] And were all baptized unto Moses in the cloud and in the sea; [3] And did all eat the same spiritual meat; [4] And did all drink the same spiritual drink: for they DRANK OF THAT SPIRITUAL ROCK that followed them: and THAT ROCK WAS CHRIST.

Yes, according to scripture

JOB 14 [10] But man dieth, and wasteth away: yea, man giveth up the ghost, and where is he?[11] As the waters fail from the sea, and the flood decayeth and drieth up:[12] So MAN LIETH DOWN, AND RISETH NOT: TILL THE HEAVENS BE NO MORE, they shall not awake, nor be raised out of their sleep.[13] O that thou wouldest hide me in the grave, that thou wouldest keep me secret, until thy wrath be past, that thou wouldest appoint me a set time, and remember me! [14] IF A MAN DIE, SHALL HE LIVE AGAIN? all the days of my appointed time will I WAIT, TILL MY CHANGE COME.

Job says after the heavens be no more, then shall his "change" come

2PET.3 [10] But THE DAY OF THE LORD WILL COME as a thief in the night; in the which THE HEAVENS SHALL PASS AWAY with a great noise, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat, the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up

Job says his "change" will come when the heavens be no more. Above scripture tells us the heavens be no more at the coming of the Day of the Lord. Which occurs {according to scripture} after the great tribulation

ISAIAH 34 [2] For the indignation of the LORD is upon all nations, and his fury upon all their armies: he hath utterly destroyed them, he hath delivered them to the slaughter.[3] Their slain also shall be cast out, and their stink shall come up out of their carcases, and the mountains shall be melted with their blood.[4] And all the host of HEAVEN SHALL BE DISSOLVED, and the heavens shall be rolled together AS A SCROLL: and all their host shall fall down, as the leaf falleth off from the vine, and as a falling fig from the fig tree. [8] For it is THE DAY OF THE LORD'S VENGEANCE, and the year of recompences for the controversy of Zion.

REVELATION 6 [12] And I beheld when he had opened THE SIXTH SEAL, and, lo, there was a great earthquake; and the sun became black as sackcloth of hair, and the moon became as blood; ......[14] And the heaven departed AS A SCROLL when it is rolled together; and every mountain and island were moved out of their places...... [16] And said to the mountains and rocks, Fall on us, and hide us from the face of him that sitteth on the throne, and from the wrath of the Lamb: [17] For the great day of his wrath is come; and who shall be able to stand?

So scripture proves Job will be changed {in the twinkling of an eye} after the tribulation period on the Day of the Lord. So why wasnt he invited to the to Darbys pre-trib rapture

I believe Paul (in 1 Cor) is addressing specifically "the Church which is His body," but in this "resurrection chapter" also speaks of all who will be a part of "the resurrection OF LIFE"... but verses 51-53 speak specifically of "THIS corruptible ['the dead IN Christ' of 'the Church which is His body'] and "THIS mortal [the 'we which are alive and remain unto']" (and it is the LATTER of these two that he speaks of specifically in 2Cor5:2-4 ['that mortality might be swallowed up OF LIFE'], that is, the still-living believers at the time of our Rapture [i.e. the 'we which are alive and remain unto' at the time of our Rapture/Departure 'IN THE AIR' when we are 'caught up together with' ('AS ONE') the dead IN Christ--of whom "the Rapture" SOLELY pertains]--this is what believers are EAGER for!)

These, as are ALL OT saints, will be "resurrected" (to stand again on the earth) at the END of the trib, at the time of Christ's Second Coming to the earth (and these passages speak to that: Daniel 12:13, Matthew 8:11 and parallel, Job 19:25-27; etc). ALL saints of ALL times will be "present" FOR the MK time period (differing capacities... some still in mortal bodies who can bear children/reproduce, for example)

I would say, no, Job did not say that. He said "man" would not be resurrected (as ALL "saints" WILL be) FOR the Last Day (the MK age)… "man" apart from God, which is what VERSE 1-4 speak of, so we have to view verse 14+ in that context. He's speaking of HIMSELF (a "saint"/believer) in these later verses. But we cannot just blur them altogether to make them say what you are suggesting they say, because they are referring to distinct things: "man [unsaved man]" in the earlier verses, "saved man" in the latter ones.

We should view 2Pet3:10-12 in view of the entire two chpts of Isa34-35 (as opposed to pulling a singular verse out from its entire context [34:4] and make it say something it doesn't say).

Nope. He said that of "man born of women" (the natural, UNSAVED man, apart from God).


"The Day of the Lord" ARRIVES at the same moment "the man of sin" is also the "whose COMING" at the START of the 7-yr trib [SEAL #1; the INITIAL "birth PANG [singular; 1Th5:2-3]"] (I've already covered this in past posts, so I won't re-do here )

Ditto what I said, above.

The "sixth SEAL" is located in the first half of the 7-yrs/70th-Wk (well after the "first SEAL" at the START of the 7-yrs/70th-Wk when Jesus will "STAND to JUDGE" [Isa3:13; Rev4-5; Lam2:3-4; etc] parallel with "the beginning of birth PANGS" and particularly the INITIAL one [Matt24:4/Mk13:5 "G5100 - tis - 'A CERTAIN ONE'"])

The phrase "in the twinkling of an eye" pertains to our Rapture (which pertains SOLELY to "the Church which is His body" [Eph1:20-23 WHEN], not to all other saints of all OTHER time periods: not to OT saints [Dan12:13], not to Trib saints [Rev20:4], not to MK saints [the Rapture is WELL-PAST from this perspective]); The phrase "the Day of the Lord" (a time period of long duration, with MUCH transpiring within it) ARRIVES at the START of the 7-yrs/70th-Wk... (this involves "the man of sin" and ALL he is slated to do THROUGHOUT the [7] trib yrs, its BEGINNING, MIDDLE, *AND* END)... and the DOTL continues on well after his demise, as well, for the MK age is also known as "the DOTL" (… so we see that "IN THE NIGHT" always precedes "the SUN... RISE" and the "GLORIOUS" full sun of day!) The phrase "in the twinkling of an eye," I've read (I can't prove it, or even find the source where I first read it many years ago), [likely, according to said source] speaks to: "the precise moment when one day turns into the next, when the sun is eight-degrees below the horizon, at sundown" (once that happens, at our "change," then "the DOTL [time period with its man of sin] WILL be present to unfold upon the earth ["DARK"/"DARKNESS"--"man of sin"/"SEAL #1" and all the rest that follows on from there...])

The kingdom of God does not come by observation .Christ is here reigning with us as ambassadors a kingdom of priest sent from the presence of God the Holy place. also called the Bosom of Abraham or the heavenly Jerusalem His eternal bride

This corrupted creation will go up in smoke as the other creation he created in the beginning when he was still doing the work comes over the horizon. Its the glorious light at the end of the darkness

Funny thing....Jesus left the Holy Spirit as comforter to lead and guide into all truth as well as convince the world of SIN judgment.......so.....if no spirit because it has been removed how do the people get convicted, enlightened and saved during the tribulation period....another hole in the false imminent return fable started in the 1800's.............

My argument (which is the pre-trib stance) is not to say that the "Spirit" is "removed FROM THE EARTH," but that His "restraining role" (and in connection with "the Church which is His body") will be taken away (at the time of our Rapture), and I've pointed out in past posts (not sure if in this thread or in related threads) the great similarities between what 2 Thessalonians 2:7b-8a is saying, to that of Lamentations 2:3-4 [context Lam2:1-7], where it says (in a "judgment" context):

--"He hath cut off in his fierce anger all the horn of Israel: he hath drawn back his right hand from before the enemy [meaning, 'have at it, dudes!'], and he burned against Jacob like a flaming fire, which devoureth round about." (showing a removal of a "restraining force/role" [though we know "God" is everywhere present, so not saying HE HIMSELF is removed, see]), and where...

--2Th2:7 says, "the One restraining at present, will restrain, UNTIL out of the midst he be come [come to be], 8 AND THEN [kai tote] shall that Wicked be revealed..." (which "revealed" I believe occurs at the START of the 7-yrs/70th-Wk, not the later mid-point that many suggest, and I've explained why I see it this way, in many posts). I've pointed out how THIS SEQUENCE is repeated 3x in the 2Th2:3-9 text, as well as being the identical SEQUENCE that 1Th4-5 also had stated. [much more, but this should suffice for now... no one reads the long posts ]



Bottom line: the Spirit is NOT removed (He will still have those other roles DURING the trib... one of the purposes of the trib is to bring Israel to their Messiah [Jesus Christ], this is not done apart from the Holy Spirit, as I understand it... so this has not been my point [as a pre-tribber])