Not By Works

It is not profound at all....they were never saved.....and why?

Faith plus works for was their dogma <--Galatians states clearly this has NO POWER to save!!!

I am sure it comes in very handy!!

I wish I has some Marine in me too.....it is a tuff world!

I am not understanding your reasoning, as I USED TO BE ONE OF THOSE. I thought I was saved because I sat on a pew most SUNDAYS in my earlier life, then at the age of 29, I KNEW I never was Saved to begin with. My thinking that sitting on a church pew, Saved me, almost cost me a one way trip to hades/hell. I had tried to commit suicide three times that last week before I was born again. I know if HE did not SAVE me when He did, I would have been a suicide victim.

This is a very difficult topic to deal with but is easily proven to be false using the scriptures.The many conditional statements that accompany certain statements about salvation support this understanding.It is hard to avoid these passages.For example:

Galatians 6:
7Be not deceived; God is not mocked: for whatsoever a man soweth, that shall he also reap.
8For he that soweth to his flesh shall of the flesh reap corruption; but he that soweth to the Spirit shall of the Spirit reap life everlasting.
9And let us not be weary in well doing: for in due season we shall reap, if we faint not.


However in the long run,arguing this point is usually a fruitless discussion,as persons in life experiences and in the scriptures who fall into a backslidden state are said by proponents of OSAS to have never been truly saved ,in order to support their erroneous doctrine. The scriptures do affirm the safety of the elect but it is obvious that all who become saved may not all be the elect and hence some who were saved will not maintain the faith in Christ which will ensure their salvation.As the scriptures teach:

Hebrews 3:
12Take heed, brethren, lest there be in any of you an evil heart of UNBELIEF, in departing from the living God.

It is possible the doctrine should be OEAE.






Explain.

How can anyone with even a modicum of understanding believe that the persons who were rejected by Jesus in Matthew 7:21-23 were rejected because they had practiced faith plus works.Read what the passage says:

Matthew 7:
21Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven.
22Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works?
23And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.


The one who is saved does the will of the father in contrast to the one who does iniquity and who will not be saved.What is iniquity?

Iniquity - anomia

Thayer Definition:
1) the condition of without law
1a) because ignorant of it
1b) because of violating it
2) contempt and violation of law, iniquity, wickedness

Strongs Definition
From G459; illegality, that is, violation of law or (generally) wickedness:

According to Vine's; lit.lawlessness(a,negative,nomos, law) is used in a way which indicates the meaning as being lawlessness or wickedness.

Hence the persons who were not saved were actually working miracles,casting out devils and prophesying while still committing acts of lawlessness and wickedness.They were lying, stealing, adulterous pastors,ministers,elders, etc.

The fact that they were not obeying the word of God is confirmed by the statements of Jesus further in the passage:

Matthew 7:
24Therefore whosoever heareth these sayings of mine, and doeth them, I will liken him unto a wise man, which built his house upon a rock:
25And the rain descended, and the floods came, and the winds blew, and beat upon that house; and it fell not: for it was founded upon a rock.
26And every one that heareth these sayings of mine, and doeth them not, shall be likened unto a foolish man, which built his house upon the sand:
27And the rain descended, and the floods came, and the winds blew, and beat upon that house; and it fell: and great was the fall of it.


Two classes of persons here.

1)Those who hear and do the Lord's will - saved.
2)Those who hear and do not the Lord's will - not saved.

Hence even though empowered by God to do great things,being outside of the will of God will cause many who thought they were saved to be rejected.Many in this position are deceived by the fact that they still experience miracles and the power of God is manifesting in their lives or the lives of their ministers/pastors.Therefore they fail to recognize their departure from,or failure to be in,the will of God or they may feel their actions/works of righteousness or works of unrighteousness has no bearing on their salvation since the power of God is working in their lives..A rude awakening awaits them as they cry out Lord,Lord....

Two classes of persons here.

1)Those who hear and do the Lord's will - saved.
2)Those who hear and do not the Lord's will - not saved.

That happened to me once. I had a guy swing around be and blocked my car at a stop sign, as I was going was on the road to the gun range. I have know idea what he thought I did wrong. He got out his car and was cussing and swearing, and even smashed his fists against the car door window a couple times, while I loaded my 9 mm pistol out of his eyesight. I knew I would have to shoot if he broke my window, and thankfully a lady was in her car next to me, and she stayed there as witness. I noticed both arms were covered with tattoos, and figured he was an ex-inmate, and his severe anger problem landed him in prison once already. But thankfully after he vented for a few minutes, he flipped me off and left.

Works are the after effect of God's calling and saving a soul by grace through faith and not by works.

James 2:8
If ye fulfil the royal law according to the scripture, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself, ye do well:

Do you have a faith that truly loves your neighbor as yourself?

James 2:14-17
What doth it profit, my brethren, though a man say he hath faith, and have not works? can faith save him? 15If a brother or sister be naked, and destitute of daily food, 16And one of you say unto them, Depart in peace, be ye warmed and filled; notwithstanding ye give them not those things which are needful to the body; what doth it profit? 17Even so faith, if it hath not works, is dead, being alone.

18Yea, a man may say, Thou hast faith, and I have works: shew me thy faith without thy works, and I will shew thee my faith by my works. 19Thou believest that there is one God; thou doest well: the devils also believe, and tremble. 20But wilt thou know, O vain man, that faith without works is dead?

21Was not Abraham our father justified by works, when he had offered Isaac his son upon the altar? 22Seest thou how faith wrought with his works, and by works was faith made perfect? 23And the scripture was fulfilled which saith, Abraham believed God, and it was imputed unto him for righteousness: and he was called the Friend of God. 24Ye see then how that by works a man is justified, and not by faith only. 25Likewise also was not Rahab the harlot justified by works, when she had received the messengers, and had sent them out another way? 26For as the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without works is dead also.

See verse 23?
Abraham believed God, he had grace through faith first.

That is what caused Abraham's works in verse 21.

How about Rahab in verse 25?

Hebrews 11:31
By faith the harlot Rahab perished not with them that believed not, when she had received the spies with peace.

James is not talking about praying for dead people. <---Dead works faith!
James is not talking about performing vain rituals in some religious place. <--- Dead works faith!
James is not talking about giving your used clothing and belongings to your church. <---Dead works faith!
James is not talking about showing favoritism to a particular denomination and adhering to and promoting it's bylaws. <---Dead works faith!
James is not talking about putting on a outward appearance of faith.<-- Dead works faith!

The works James is talking about are the works that come after grace through faith has already begun; that grace through faith that comes from God in Christ Jesus before time began.

Even atheists and the most evil men can deceive others by performing so called good deeds and putting on a show of faith outwardly.

Again.......

James 2:8
If ye fulfil the royal law according to the scripture, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself, ye do well:

Matthew 7:12
Therefore all things whatsoever ye would that men should do to you, do ye even so to them: for this is the law and the prophets.

Do you have a faith that truly loves your neighbor as yourself?

Grace through faith saves and not by works!

2 Timothy 1:9
Who hath saved us, and called us with an holy calling, not according to our works, but according to His own purpose and grace, which was given us in Christ Jesus before the world began,

Ephesians 2:8-10
For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God: 9Not of works, lest any man should boast. 10For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them.

No deceiver would ever teach obedience to God and no true Christian would ever teach DISOBEDIENCE TO GOD.

These people on this thread mock God.

Do they teach obedience to God? No. It will destroy their man made doctrines.

Do they teach DISOBEDIENCE TO GOD?
They attack, insult and blaspheme those who teach OBEDIENCE TO GOD and is a clear evidence of what they teach.

NIV1984 Jude 1:4
For certain men whose condemnation was written about long ago have secretly slipped in among you. They are godless men, who change the grace of our God into a license for immorality and deny Jesus Christ our only Sovereign and Lord.

How can anyone with even a modicum of understanding believe that the persons who were rejected by Jesus in Matthew 7:21-23 were rejected because they had practiced faith plus works.Read what the passage says:

Matthew 7:
21Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven.
22Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works?
23And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.


The one who is saved does the will of the father in contrast to the one who does iniquity and who will not be saved.What is iniquity?

Iniquity - anomia

Thayer Definition:
1) the condition of without law
1a) because ignorant of it
1b) because of violating it
2) contempt and violation of law, iniquity, wickedness

Strongs Definition
From G459; illegality, that is, violation of law or (generally) wickedness:

According to Vine's; lit.lawlessness(a,negative,nomos, law) is used in a way which indicates the meaning as being lawlessness or wickedness.

Hence the persons who were not saved were actually working miracles,casting out devils and prophesying while still committing acts of lawlessness and wickedness.They were lying, stealing, adulterous pastors,ministers,elders, etc.

The fact that they were not obeying the word of God is confirmed by the statements of Jesus further in the passage:

Matthew 7:
24Therefore whosoever heareth these sayings of mine, and doeth them, I will liken him unto a wise man, which built his house upon a rock:
25And the rain descended, and the floods came, and the winds blew, and beat upon that house; and it fell not: for it was founded upon a rock.
26And every one that heareth these sayings of mine, and doeth them not, shall be likened unto a foolish man, which built his house upon the sand:
27And the rain descended, and the floods came, and the winds blew, and beat upon that house; and it fell: and great was the fall of it.


Two classes of persons here.

1)Those who hear and do the Lord's will - saved.
2)Those who hear and do not the Lord's will - not saved.

Hence even though empowered by God to do great things,being outside of the will of God will cause many who thought they were saved to be rejected.Many in this position are deceived by the fact that they still experience miracles and the power of God is manifesting in their lives or the lives of their ministers/pastors.Therefore they fail to recognize their departure from,or failure to be in,the will of God or they may feel their actions/works of righteousness or works of unrighteousness has no bearing on their salvation since the power of God is working in their lives..A rude awakening awaits them as they cry out Lord,Lord....