Amillennialists...Here's a chance to state your case.

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Apr 3, 2019
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25 I do not want you to be ignorant of this mystery, brothers and sisters, so that you may not be conceited: Israel has experienced a hardening in part until the full number of the Gentiles has come in, 26 and in this way all Israel will be saved.
How can all Israel be saved when Jesus clearly states that the elect/remnant only would be saved and the rest cast out?

(Mat 21:40-43 Now when the owner of the vineyard comes, what will he do to those tenants?" They said to him, "He will utterly destroy those evil men! Then he will lease the vineyard to other tenants who will give him his portion at the harvest." Jesus said to them, "Have you never read in the scriptures: 'The stone the builders rejected has become the cornerstone. This is from the Lord, and it is marvelous in our eyes'? For this reason I tell you that the kingdom of God will be taken from you and given to a people who will produce its fruit. )

No mention of a later restoration of them to the Kingdom.

(Mat 8:11 I tell you, many will come from the east and west to share the banquet with Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob in the kingdom of heaven )

(Mat 8:12 but the sons of the kingdom will be thrown out into the outer darkness, where there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth." )

Paul basically echoes Jesus' statement:

(Gal 4:30 But what does the scripture say? "Throw out the slave woman and her son, for the son of the slave woman will not share the inheritance with the son" of the free woman. )

(Gal 4:31 Therefore, brothers and sisters, we are not children of the slave woman but of the free woman. )

(Gal 4:22-24 For it is written that Abraham had two sons, one by the slave woman and the other by the free woman. But one, the son by the slave woman, was born by natural descent, while the other, the son by the free woman, was born through the promise. These things may be treated as an allegory, for these women represent two covenants. One is from Mount Sinai bearing children for slavery; this is Hagar. )

(Gal 4:25-26 Now Hagar represents Mount Sinai in Arabia and corresponds to the present Jerusalem, for she is in slavery with her. But the Jerusalem above is free, and she is our mother. children. )
 
U

UnderGrace

Guest
How can all Israel be saved when Jesus clearly states that the elect/remnant only would be saved and the rest cast out?
Jesus is quite clear I agree ...it is a problem:unsure:
 
U

UnderGrace

Guest
25 I do not want you to be ignorant of this mystery, brothers and sisters, so that you may not be conceited: Israel has experienced a hardening in part until the full number of the Gentiles has come in, 26 and in this way all Israel will be saved.

If we exegete correctly and look at the full context.... the key is "in this way".....Paul is telling us how so obviously....

In verse 23, after having already, in the previous verses, explained that it was because of their "faith" in the Christ and the gospel, that the Gentiles had been grafted into the good olive tree (The Israel of God), he now explains how that his kinsmen according to the flesh, could be grafted in AGAIN, but that it was dependent upon the basis that they continue NOT in their unbelief.

This would be a perpetual condition continuing on till the "fulness of the Gentiles has come in."
 
Apr 3, 2019
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25 I do not want you to be ignorant of this mystery, brothers and sisters, so that you may not be conceited: Israel has experienced a hardening in part until the full number of the Gentiles has come in, 26 and in this way all Israel will be saved.

If we exegete correctly and look at the full context.... the key is "in this way".....Paul is telling us how so obviously....

In verse 23, after having already, in the previous verses, explained that it was because of their "faith" in the Christ and the gospel, that the Gentiles had been grafted into the good olive tree (The Israel of God), he now explains how that his kinsmen according to the flesh, could be grafted in AGAIN, but that it was dependent upon the basis that they continue NOT in their unbelief.

This would be a perpetual condition continuing on till the "fulness of the Gentiles has come in."
"could be grafted in AGAIN, but that it was dependent upon the basis that they continue NOT in their unbelief."

Agree.
 
U

UnderGrace

Guest
"could be grafted in AGAIN, but that it was dependent upon the basis that they continue NOT in their unbelief."

Agree.
There "was" "is" and "will be" only one standard/door for salvation....belief in Jesus... and that is the beauty of Covenant Theology.....we do not have to eisegesis scripture to make it fit some future dispensation.
 
Apr 3, 2019
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25 I do not want you to be ignorant of this mystery, brothers and sisters, so that you may not be conceited: Israel has experienced a hardening in part until the full number of the Gentiles has come in, 26 and in this way all Israel will be saved.

If we exegete correctly and look at the full context.... the key is "in this way".....Paul is telling us how so obviously....

In verse 23, after having already, in the previous verses, explained that it was because of their "faith" in the Christ and the gospel, that the Gentiles had been grafted into the good olive tree (The Israel of God), he now explains how that his kinsmen according to the flesh, could be grafted in AGAIN, but that it was dependent upon the basis that they continue NOT in their unbelief.

This would be a perpetual condition continuing on till the "fulness of the Gentiles has come in."
"could be grafted in AGAIN".

Interesting to note, the grafting back in is into the church/Jesus, not the nation.
 
Apr 3, 2019
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"could be grafted in AGAIN".

Interesting to note, the grafting back in is into the church/Jesus, not the nation.
The above needs some clarification:

(1 Pet 2:9 But you are a chosen race, a royal priesthood, a holy nation, a people of his own, so that you may proclaim the virtues of the one who called you out of darkness into his marvelous light. )

(1 Pet 2:10 You once were not a people, but now you are God's people. You were shown no mercy, but now you have received mercy. )

In the above Peter is addressing the diaspora tribes:

(1 Pet 1:1 Peter, an apostle of Jesus Christ, To those who reside as aliens, scattered throughout Pontus, Galatia, Cappadocia, Asia, and Bithynia, who are chosen )
 
E

eternally-gratefull

Guest
How can all Israel be saved when Jesus clearly states that the elect/remnant only would be saved and the rest cast out?
Actually. It gives you the answer in the text.

It says clearly. That Isreal has been blinded IN PART (the remnant Israel vs the unsaved Israel) and this would remain until the fulness of the gentiles has been completed. THEN All Isreal will be saved.


Thats the problem with people side stepping issues and not reading the text.. or trying to insert their interpretation to the text/ You miss what it CLEARLY there
 
E

eternally-gratefull

Guest
Jesus is quite clear I agree ...it is a problem:unsure:
Yeah It is a problem for Amills

Even Gabriel said clearly at the end of the 70th week. The sin of Isreal will come to and end And all will be fulfilled

I guess God told Gabrial the wrong information?
 
E

eternally-gratefull

Guest
"could be grafted in AGAIN, but that it was dependent upon the basis that they continue NOT in their unbelief."

Agree.
Yep

Hw do you think they will ALL Get saved?

THEY REPENTED!!

Oh wait. Thats what the “time of jacobs trouble” is for!!
 
E

eternally-gratefull

Guest
There "was" "is" and "will be" only one standard/door for salvation....belief in Jesus... and that is the beauty of Covenant Theology.....we do not have to eisegesis scripture to make it fit some future dispensation.
Covenant theology is a lie.

And no one believ es anyone is saved apart from faith. So your whole argument against us is based on a LIE..

This argument is not based on how anyone gets saved, Its based on what God claims will happen in the future (prophesy)

Salvation or how anyone is saved has no bearing, Thats the lie you all have been fed against us//
 
E

eternally-gratefull

Guest
"could be grafted in AGAIN".

Interesting to note, the grafting back in is into the church/Jesus, not the nation.
The church has ALWAYS been in Christ. Even in OT times

In the OT times the church was administered by Isreal. In NT times the churhc is administered by Jew and Gentile alike.
 
E

eternally-gratefull

Guest
The above needs some clarification:

(1 Pet 2:9 But you are a chosen race, a royal priesthood, a holy nation, a people of his own, so that you may proclaim the virtues of the one who called you out of darkness into his marvelous light. )

(1 Pet 2:10 You once were not a people, but now you are God's people. You were shown no mercy, but now you have received mercy. )

In the above Peter is addressing the diaspora tribes:

(1 Pet 1:1 Peter, an apostle of Jesus Christ, To those who reside as aliens, scattered throughout Pontus, Galatia, Cappadocia, Asia, and Bithynia, who are chosen )
Yep. Thank you for proving they were STLL SCATTERED/ proving the prophecies of God restoring them from where they were scattered has not yet occurred
 
Dec 12, 2013
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The church has ALWAYS been in Christ. Even in OT times

In the OT times the church was administered by Isreal. In NT times the churhc is administered by Jew and Gentile alike.
AMEN....it does say....The assembly of the firstborn in the wilderness.....SAME WORD EKKLESIA
 

FollowHisSteps

Well-known member
Feb 15, 2019
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The church has ALWAYS been in Christ. Even in OT times

In the OT times the church was administered by Isreal. In NT times the churhc is administered by Jew and Gentile alike.
This did make me do a double take.
Using church language applied backwards to Israel does not work, with sacrifices, priests, the 12 tribes,
civil and criminal law, judges, rulers, armies.

Paul talked about the vine of the people of God and we as gentiles have been grafted in to the vine.
If one is saying this is one continuous reality, one has to face the role of the law as governing Gods people,
and helping them bring justice to their society, not just pointing to Jesus, who had not yet be revealed.

But to write something like this shows the simple projection of ones current situation into every other
situation whether it fits or not. Amazing, but then not that unexpected.
 
Apr 3, 2019
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Yep. Thank you for proving they were STLL SCATTERED/ proving the prophecies of God restoring them from where they were scattered has not yet occurred
Not so, Christ's mission was to gather the tribes into his body/church as per John's gospel:

(John 11:51 Now he did not say this on his own, but because he was high priest that year, he prophesied that Jesus was going to die for the Jewish nation )

(John 11:52 and not for the Jewish nation only, but to gather together into one the children of God who are scattered.)

The dispensational claim that this has not been accomplished ignores the actual scriptures and inserts it own definition of the gathering supposedly in the physical land (1900-1948 etc. which comprises mainly atheists).

Peter calls them a holy nation and elect:

(1 Pet 1:2 elect according to the foreknowledge of God the Father, in sanctification of the Spirit, for obedience and sprinkling of the blood of Jesus Christ )

Christ gathered only the elect not all Israel ( For they are not all Israel, which are of Israel - Rom 9:6 )

(Mat 24:31 And He will send His angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they will gather together His elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other. )

(Mat 24:34 “Assuredly, I say to you, this generation will by no means pass away till all these things take place." )

The elect were being gathered together in Christ in the 1st century.
 
E

eternally-gratefull

Guest
Not so, Christ's mission was to gather the tribes into his body/church as per John's gospel:

(John 11:51 Now he did not say this on his own, but because he was high priest that year, he prophesied that Jesus was going to die for the Jewish nation )

(John 11:52 and not for the Jewish nation only, but to gather together into one the children of God who are scattered.)

The dispensational claim that this has not been accomplished ignores the actual scriptures and inserts it own definition of the gathering supposedly in the physical land (1900-1948 etc. which comprises mainly atheists).

Peter calls them a holy nation and elect:

(1 Pet 1:2 elect according to the foreknowledge of God the Father, in sanctification of the Spirit, for obedience and sprinkling of the blood of Jesus Christ )

Christ gathered only the elect not all Israel ( For they are not all Israel, which are of Israel - Rom 9:6 )

(Mat 24:31 And He will send His angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they will gather together His elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other. )

(Mat 24:34 “Assuredly, I say to you, this generation will by no means pass away till all these things take place." )

The elect were being gathered together in Christ in the 1st century.
Yes so

Many OT prophets speak of God regathering Isreal, who was scattered all over the earth, and bringing them back into her land. And even PUNISHING the gentiles who treated them badly.

I am sorry man, But the church is not Gods fulfillment of these prophesies.

Your talking about the elect which had no name (jew or gentile) Not the promises God made a a nation.

Until you realise these are two different things, You can not see.
 
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eternally-gratefull

Guest
AMEN....it does say....The assembly of the firstborn in the wilderness.....SAME WORD EKKLESIA
Yes The church is not new. It has always been the children of God. Whether jew or gentile. I think people forget Nineveh was gentile. Yet they repented at the preaching of Jonah, and became part of the church. Separate from the covenant God had with Israel.
 

iamsoandso

Senior Member
Oct 6, 2011
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It's late tonight my friend but tomorrow lets examine the four Gospels from the point our Lord was Crucified until he ascended to heaven and take a very close look at how the disciples reacted to it,,,there's something I want to ask about the Olivet discourse okay?

So then from the time that our Lord was Crucified Mary/s go to the tomb but think the gardener moved his body,Peter says he's going fishing, Thomas says he wont believe that it's Jesus unless he puts his hands in the nail and spear holes/hole,,they are afraid that they saw a spirit when Jesus appears to them and Cleopas says they had trusted in that Jesus was who was to redeem Israel but that he was killed thee days before. Does any of their comments or actions seem as though the disciples were anticipating Jesus to be raised three days after his death according to Scripture? ,,,,@crossnote
 
Jan 12, 2019
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Does any of their comments or actions seem as though the disciples were anticipating Jesus to be raised three days after his death according to Scripture? ,,,,@crossnote
None of them understood that Jesus must die for their sins and be resurrected for their justification.

Even in early Acts, they preached the death of Christ as a murder indictment against their Jewish listeners, and his resurrection as proof that he is indeed the Jews promised Messiah,