100% Election 100% of the time.

then you are telling me that any one of us can totally stymie God's will, right?

"Election: Christ’s Honor and Our Blessing"

http://www.gty.org/library/sermons-library/81-49



The following passages are interpreted differently by Calvinists and Arminians:

John 6:37
"All that the Father gives me will come to me, and whoever comes to me I will never drive away."
Calvinists argue that this passages teaches irresistible grace. The individual cannot refuse God's choice, therefore all those given to Christ will respond.
Arminians reply that "those given to me" in 37 are the same as those who "believe in him" in vs. 40. In other words, when God foresees that some will believe, he gives them to Christ. See that in vs. 45, those who "have heard and learned from the father" are the ones who "come to me."


John 6:44,65
"No one can come to me unless the Father who sent me draws him, and I will raise him up at the last day."
The Calvinist holds that these passages teach total depravity, unconditional election, and also imply limited atonement and double predestination. This is because:
"No one can come to me unless . . . " because they are totally depraved
"it has been granted him from the Father" or "the Father draws him" meaning unconditional election. Unconditional in this case, because the cause is the father, not the individual.
Limited atonement and double predestination are usually inferred from the face that it is impossible to come to him without election. Therefore, those whom the Father has not drawn are naturally destined for judgement, and are therefore those for whom Christ did not die.
The Arminian agrees that these passages teach total depravity. However, they argue that the father draws all men to Christ (Jn. 12:32; 16:8). They further hold that to assign the cause exclusively to the Father ignores vss. 29; 35; 40; and 47. To attribute the cause exclusively to the Father regardless of the response of the person, flies in the face of the stated will of the Father in vs. 40 that "Everyone who beholds the Son and believes in him" be saved. Finally, with regard to limited atonement and double predestination, these positions depend on the earlier conclusion (unconditional election), and therefore beg the question.


John 15:16
"You did not choose Me, but I chose you, and appointed you, that you should go and bear fruit, and that your fruit should remain..."
Some Calvinists (and Augustine) have argued that this a proof text for unconditional election, emphasizing the irrelevance of human choice.
Arminians point out that the statement is made to the disciples with reference to their apostleship, not to their salvation. This interpretation accords well with the next phrase "that you should go and bear fruit and that your fruit should remain." See also Jn. 6:70 referring to the same choice. Judas was chosen but not saved.


Acts 13:48
"And when the Gentiles heard this, they began rejoicing and glorifying the word of the Lord; and as many as had been appointed to eternal life believed."
The Calvinists argue that this verse teaches unconditional election, because it would have been easy to say "as many as believed were appointed eternal life" but the reverse is stated.
The Arminians point out that the participle translated "were appointed to" (tetagmenoi) is in the middle-passive voice. This means that the same form is used in Greek to designate both the middle voice and the passive voice. The NASB has translated it in the passive voice. However, if it is translated in the middle voice, the passage would read ". . .as many as set themselves to eternal life believed" (cf I Cor. 16:15 where the same participle is translated in the middle voice).


Romans 9:16,22,23
The Calvinist position is that Romans 9 teaches unconditional election and double predestination. This is because:
Vs. 16 "it [God's choice] does not depend on the man who wills"
Vs. 18 refers to double predestination.
Vs. 22, 23 refer to "vessels of wrath prepared for destruction" and "vessels of mercy prepared beforehand for glory."
The election involved is not a national election, because vs. 24 states that the vessels of mercy are "us, whom He called not from among Jews only, but also from among Gentiles,"" (i.e. believing Christians).
Arminians argue that the first part of Romans 9 deals with God's choice of nations and their roles in his plans.
Vs. 1-5 make clear that the context is that of national choice. This is confirmed in verses 6,7 because all Israelites were not saved and all Ishmaelites were not damned. Also, in vs. 13 Malachi 3:2 is cited to demonstrate that God had favored the nation of Israel over the nation of Edom.
Vs. 16 refers to God's choice of how to lead the nation of Israel through the wilderness, which was independent of Moses's opinion. Personal salvation is not in view in the original passage (Ex. 33:19).
Vs. 18 is in the context of vs. 16 see above, and vs. 17 which refers to God's temporal destruction of the Egyptians when they wanted to destroy Israel. The verse teaches therefore, that God caused his choice of Israel to stand regardless of Moses' attempts to help or Pharoah's attempts to hinder. Neither Moses' nor Pharoah's personal salvation was in view in these passages.
Vs. 22,23 refers to nations which have either glorious or a judgmental role in history. God allows evil nations to exist, and often uses them to bless the chosen nation, Israel. Today, believers are able to participate in the covenant blessings of Israel, because they have been "grafted in to the rich root" of God's purpose in history.
Another explanation is that the "lump" of clay in vs. 21 refers to national Israel. God has the right to divide Israel into two vessels: unbelieving Israel, which has now become a vessel of wrath (for "prepared", read fit or suited to destruction), and believing Israel, which, along with believing Gentiles has become a vessel of mercy.
Any interpretation of Rom. 9 must account for the transition that Paul makes from national choice in vss. 1-5ff. and individual salvation in vss. 24-33. Therefore, neither view can claim that the other is completely out of context. The question becomes one of which transition is more believable, and makes the most sense of the Old Testament quotations.

You do it every day buddy.

then you are telling me that any one of us can totally stymie God's will, right?

Faith is the passive result of being persuaded, convinced, and convicted that something is true.

One cannot determine faith......this is essential to understanding how people come to believe and being dead in their sins does not mean people cannot be persuaded.
Faith is not an act of the will....we cannot will ourselves to believe.

i agree

Who is it that persuades?

Will anyone fail to be saved because i wasn't clever enough to use the right words or the music wasn't quite emotional enough at the benediction?

Or is it about the word of God that goes out, not crafty arguments? In that case isn't it God Himself persuading?

If i can't make myself believe - and i agree i can't - then why would i think i can make someone else? Then i sure could boast! And salvation would be by fine rhetoric and oration, not grace, wouldn't it?

i agree

Who is it that persuades?

Will anyone fail to be saved because i wasn't clever enough to use the right words or the music wasn't quite emotional enough at the benediction?

Or is it about the word of God that goes out, not crafty arguments? In that case isn't it God Himself persuading?

If i can't make myself believe - and i agree i can't - then why would i think i can make someone else? Then i sure could boast! And salvation would be by fine rhetoric and oration, not grace, wouldn't it?

I think we were here once before about a year ago ... feels like deja vu!!

This is not the God of the Bible, He does select people just willy nilly and leaves others out of luck as @dcontroversal so aptly put it ....let's just leave it there.

i agree

Who is it that persuades?

Will anyone fail to be saved because i wasn't clever enough to use the right words or the music wasn't quite emotional enough at the benediction?

Or is it about the word of God that goes out, not crafty arguments? In that case isn't it God Himself persuading?

If i can't make myself believe - and i agree i can't - then why would i think i can make someone else? Then i sure could boast! And salvation would be by fine rhetoric and oration, not grace, wouldn't it?

I think we were here once before about a year ago ... feels like deja vu!!

This is not the God of the Bible, He does select people just willy nilly and leaves others out of luck as @dcontroversal so aptly put it ....let's just leave it there.

You do it every day buddy.

God also has a permissive will that allows sin to continue. Don't be seduced into thinking God's will can be "stymied". God declares dozens of times that His will shall be fulfilled, to whatever degree He chooses.

There is almost a visceral fear surrounding the thought that it IS God that saves us, from start to finish. I do not fear that and am so thankful to Him for saving me.

No it is the visceral fear of falsely promoting the idea that God plays favorites with His free gift of eternal life. Yes God saves us from start to finish, but it is FALSE DOCTRINE to claim that sinners do not have to obey the Gospel in order to be saved. Indeed, every Calvinist had to repent and believe on the Lord Jesus Christ in order to be saved.

No it is the visceral fear of falsely promoting the idea that God plays favorites with His free gift of eternal life. Yes God saves us from start to finish, but it is FALSE DOCTRINE to claim that sinners do not have to obey the Gospel in order to be saved. Indeed, every Calvinist had to repent and believe on the Lord Jesus Christ in order to be saved.

it is FALSE DOCTRINE to claim that sinners do not have to obey the Gospel in order to be saved.

@posthuman and @cv5 what is your statement of belief? Please point me to a prior post if you've given it. It's kind of hard to confidently determine what you believe.
Are you Calvinists? If so all TULIP? Arminians? Neither?

I've working on adding mine to my signature.

Thank you

lol here:

https://aruljohn.com/Bible/kjv/

Come on Mine are all based in the same bible. I’m working on adding scripture links to my sig.
What are your beliefs? I’m not asking for a label, what do you believe because I am trying to see your POV