Honour or Dishonour
- Thread starter Robertt
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It means, God (the Potter) gets to decide what He does with the clay (people). The clay doesn't tell the potter what it wants to be. A literal potter might use one lump of clay to make a soup tureen, and another to make a chamber pot.
When you find a passage in the KJV confusing, try reading it in a modern translation.
When you find a passage in the KJV confusing, try reading it in a modern translation.
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Cross ref.
Isaiah 10:15
Does an ax raise itself above the one who swings it? Does a saw boast over him who saws with it? It would be like a staff waving the one who lifts it! It would be like a staff lifting him who is not wood!
King James Bible
Shall the axe boast itself against him that heweth therewith? orshall the saw magnify itself against him that shaketh it? as if the rod should shake itself against them that lift it up, or as if the staff should lift up itself, as if it were no wood.
Isaiah 10:15
Does an ax raise itself above the one who swings it? Does a saw boast over him who saws with it? It would be like a staff waving the one who lifts it! It would be like a staff lifting him who is not wood!
King James Bible
Shall the axe boast itself against him that heweth therewith? orshall the saw magnify itself against him that shaketh it? as if the rod should shake itself against them that lift it up, or as if the staff should lift up itself, as if it were no wood.
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Rom 9:21 Hath not the potter power over the clay, of the same lump to make one vessel unto honour, and another unto dishonour?
Rom 9:22 What if God, willing to shew his wrath, and to make his power known, endured with much longsuffering the vessels of wrath fitted to destruction:
Rom 9:23 And that he might make known the riches of his glory on the vessels of mercy, which he had afore prepared unto glory.
The people that God made as a vessel of dishonor, were that way because of them, and not because of God, for God did not make them that way, but the people chose to be disobedient so God used them for a purpose according to their disobedience.
For they were already vessels of wrath fitted to destruction before God used them.
Rom 9:17 For the scripture saith unto Pharaoh, Even for this same purpose have I raised thee up, that I might shew my power in thee, and that my name might be declared throughout all the earth.
Rom 9:18 Therefore hath he mercy on whom he will have mercy, and whom he will he hardeneth.
Which Pharaoh was such a man that God knew would not change, so God used Him to show His power on earth and deliver the Jews, so the world would know of the one true God.
I do not believe that God touched Pharaoh to harden his heart, for God is not evil, but did not touch Pharaoh's heart to change him to let the people go, or Pharaoh was deceived by a devil.
God used the self exalting, and arrogant Pharaoh for a purpose, but this way about Pharaoh was because of him, and his ways, not because God chose him to be a vessel of dishonor for no reason, and Pharaoh was a good man.
Rom 9:19 Thou wilt say then unto me, Why doth he yet find fault? For who hath resisted his will?
Rom 9:20 Nay but, O man, who art thou that repliest against God? Shall the thing formed say to him that formed it, Why hast thou made me thus?
These people are already vessels of dishonor when God used them, but in case anybody wants to question it, and say why would God do that, Paul said shall the clay say to the potter what do you do, for God can do what He wants, and they were already disobedient before God used them.
For Pharaoh was already a vessel of dishonor, and disobedient, and a terrible man, before God used Moses to go to him, and the 10 plagues, so God did not make him that way, but used him because of his disobedient, and stubborn ways to free the Jews, and to show His power on earth, so all nations would know the true God.
2Ti 2:20 But in a great house there are not only vessels of gold and of silver, but also of wood and of earth; and some to honour, and some to dishonour.
2Ti 2:21 If a man therefore purge himself from these, he shall be a vessel unto honour, sanctified, and meet for the master's use, and prepared unto every good work.
Even in the physical building of God, and the people that go there that confess Christ there are many that are a vessel unto dishonor, but God did not make them that way, but it is of them, but God said if they do right then they will be a vessel unto honor.
There are people in the world that go by the truth, and do not go by the truth, but they are the ones that make themselves that way by what they believe as truth.
God does not make us that way, but it is of us what we believe as truth, and the ways about us that cause us to be a vessel of honor, or dishonor.
Psa 106:39 Thus were they defiled with their own works, and went a whoring with their own inventions.
Ecc 7:29 Lo, this only have I found, that God hath made man upright; but they have sought out many inventions.
Rom 9:22 What if God, willing to shew his wrath, and to make his power known, endured with much longsuffering the vessels of wrath fitted to destruction:
Rom 9:23 And that he might make known the riches of his glory on the vessels of mercy, which he had afore prepared unto glory.
The people that God made as a vessel of dishonor, were that way because of them, and not because of God, for God did not make them that way, but the people chose to be disobedient so God used them for a purpose according to their disobedience.
For they were already vessels of wrath fitted to destruction before God used them.
Rom 9:17 For the scripture saith unto Pharaoh, Even for this same purpose have I raised thee up, that I might shew my power in thee, and that my name might be declared throughout all the earth.
Rom 9:18 Therefore hath he mercy on whom he will have mercy, and whom he will he hardeneth.
Which Pharaoh was such a man that God knew would not change, so God used Him to show His power on earth and deliver the Jews, so the world would know of the one true God.
I do not believe that God touched Pharaoh to harden his heart, for God is not evil, but did not touch Pharaoh's heart to change him to let the people go, or Pharaoh was deceived by a devil.
God used the self exalting, and arrogant Pharaoh for a purpose, but this way about Pharaoh was because of him, and his ways, not because God chose him to be a vessel of dishonor for no reason, and Pharaoh was a good man.
Rom 9:19 Thou wilt say then unto me, Why doth he yet find fault? For who hath resisted his will?
Rom 9:20 Nay but, O man, who art thou that repliest against God? Shall the thing formed say to him that formed it, Why hast thou made me thus?
These people are already vessels of dishonor when God used them, but in case anybody wants to question it, and say why would God do that, Paul said shall the clay say to the potter what do you do, for God can do what He wants, and they were already disobedient before God used them.
For Pharaoh was already a vessel of dishonor, and disobedient, and a terrible man, before God used Moses to go to him, and the 10 plagues, so God did not make him that way, but used him because of his disobedient, and stubborn ways to free the Jews, and to show His power on earth, so all nations would know the true God.
2Ti 2:20 But in a great house there are not only vessels of gold and of silver, but also of wood and of earth; and some to honour, and some to dishonour.
2Ti 2:21 If a man therefore purge himself from these, he shall be a vessel unto honour, sanctified, and meet for the master's use, and prepared unto every good work.
Even in the physical building of God, and the people that go there that confess Christ there are many that are a vessel unto dishonor, but God did not make them that way, but it is of them, but God said if they do right then they will be a vessel unto honor.
There are people in the world that go by the truth, and do not go by the truth, but they are the ones that make themselves that way by what they believe as truth.
God does not make us that way, but it is of us what we believe as truth, and the ways about us that cause us to be a vessel of honor, or dishonor.
Psa 106:39 Thus were they defiled with their own works, and went a whoring with their own inventions.
Ecc 7:29 Lo, this only have I found, that God hath made man upright; but they have sought out many inventions.
What it does NOT mean is that God predestines some for salvation and others for damnation. That is the false interpretation of Calvinists.
What it does mean is that God foresees the faith and obedience of some, and assigns then to honour, while He foresees the unbelief and disobedience of some and assigns them to dishonour (and destruction).
The example of the wicked Pharaoh who opposed God and Moses is given in this context. Did God make Pharaoh evil or did he choose to be evil? Did God give Pharaoh many opportunities to repent, or did God harden his heart arbitrarily?
Since the Bible is clear that God does not desire the destruction of the wicked, nor does He desire to see anyone in Hell, it should be clear that choosing evil over good prepares some for dishonour, destruction, and Hell.
What it does mean is that God foresees the faith and obedience of some, and assigns then to honour, while He foresees the unbelief and disobedience of some and assigns them to dishonour (and destruction).
The example of the wicked Pharaoh who opposed God and Moses is given in this context. Did God make Pharaoh evil or did he choose to be evil? Did God give Pharaoh many opportunities to repent, or did God harden his heart arbitrarily?
Since the Bible is clear that God does not desire the destruction of the wicked, nor does He desire to see anyone in Hell, it should be clear that choosing evil over good prepares some for dishonour, destruction, and Hell.
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very interesting interpretations.
So it clearly says God made them for dishonour, and we cant complain if that is how we made.
And yet people above say GOD didn't make them that way, they chose to be that way.
It reminds me of the scripture of the blind man, the disciples wanted to know by whos sin was he blind.
jesus replied, no ones. GOD made him blind so he could show his power.
So it clearly says God made them for dishonour, and we cant complain if that is how we made.
And yet people above say GOD didn't make them that way, they chose to be that way.
It reminds me of the scripture of the blind man, the disciples wanted to know by whos sin was he blind.
jesus replied, no ones. GOD made him blind so he could show his power.
U
Maybe surreptitiously...kidding
John Calvin a man who lived during the Reformation period, a french theologian.
Here is more general info...
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/John_Calvin
John Calvin a man who lived during the Reformation period, a french theologian.
Here is more general info...
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/John_Calvin
U
I think all of this has to be read and understood in context.
Paul was teaching that God was now hardening the Jews in their self-chosen unbelief to further his sovereign purposes. He was going to use their rebellion to do what he had always hoped their obedience would do, bring the Gentile world into a relationship with him ..... see Romans 11.
Paul was teaching that God was now hardening the Jews in their self-chosen unbelief to further his sovereign purposes. He was going to use their rebellion to do what he had always hoped their obedience would do, bring the Gentile world into a relationship with him ..... see Romans 11.
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I have twisted nothing and we need to understand the meaning of "God made them" in the context of all Scripture, especially the Gospel.
1. Does God offer salvation to all? Absolutely.
2. Did Christ die for the sins of the whole world? Absolutely
3. In view of this, would God turn around and arbitrarily assign some to Hell? ABSOLUTELY NOT.
So in view of the above what does it means when the Bible says this (Rom 9:21-23):
21 Hath not the potter power over the clay, of the same lump to make one vessel unto honour, and another unto dishonour?
22 What if God, willing to shew his wrath, and to make his power known, endured with much longsuffering the vessels of wrath fitted to destruction:
23 And that he might make known the riches of his glory on the vessels of mercy, which he had afore prepared unto glory,
The contrast here is between God's wrath and God's mercy (or grace) and who receives one or the other. So (1) when does a person become subject to God's wrath, and (2) how does he become a "vessel of wrath"? The answer is found in John chapter 3.
REJECTION OF CHRIST BRINGS WRATH
He that believeth on the Son hath everlasting life: and he that believeth not the Son shall not see life; but the wrath of God abideth on him. (John 3:36)
REJECTION OF CHRIST IS A CHOICE
He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God. And this is the condemnation, that light is come into the world, and men loved darkness rather than light, because their deeds were evil. (John 3:18,19)
Thus the unbelievers are chosen by God to become vessels of wrath, but ONLY AFTER they made their own choices. But through divine foreknowledge He knows all the outcomes.
Do not accuse me of twisting Scripture when you do not have a proper understanding of Gospel truth. If you are here to learn then learn.
1. Does God offer salvation to all? Absolutely.
2. Did Christ die for the sins of the whole world? Absolutely
3. In view of this, would God turn around and arbitrarily assign some to Hell? ABSOLUTELY NOT.
So in view of the above what does it means when the Bible says this (Rom 9:21-23):
21 Hath not the potter power over the clay, of the same lump to make one vessel unto honour, and another unto dishonour?
22 What if God, willing to shew his wrath, and to make his power known, endured with much longsuffering the vessels of wrath fitted to destruction:
23 And that he might make known the riches of his glory on the vessels of mercy, which he had afore prepared unto glory,
The contrast here is between God's wrath and God's mercy (or grace) and who receives one or the other. So (1) when does a person become subject to God's wrath, and (2) how does he become a "vessel of wrath"? The answer is found in John chapter 3.
REJECTION OF CHRIST BRINGS WRATH
He that believeth on the Son hath everlasting life: and he that believeth not the Son shall not see life; but the wrath of God abideth on him. (John 3:36)
REJECTION OF CHRIST IS A CHOICE
He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God. And this is the condemnation, that light is come into the world, and men loved darkness rather than light, because their deeds were evil. (John 3:18,19)
Thus the unbelievers are chosen by God to become vessels of wrath, but ONLY AFTER they made their own choices. But through divine foreknowledge He knows all the outcomes.
Do not accuse me of twisting Scripture when you do not have a proper understanding of Gospel truth. If you are here to learn then learn.
