Blessings family! I am asking you what you believe scripturally! I am NOT asking for a fierce debate of "why I'm right and you are wrong" here! I and most likely others want to know the facts about His end time coming. I'm not looking for any of you to tell me what you've been taught nor what your Pastor says! I am sincere in my asking and I need feed back that is easy to understand in the word,organized and precise! Simplistic terms please but be concise to prove your point. I have been serving the Lord many years and until now,no one has satisfied my question. There seems to be MUCH division on this study! So plz play nice and help myself and others to understand! Thank you in advance for your input and your Christian behaviour!🙏🙏🙏
Three of the major problems regarding the misunderstanding of the timing of the gathering of the church is:
1). Not recognizing that the gathering of the church and the Lord's return to the earth as being two separate events.
2). Not differentiating between common trials and tribulation vs. God's coming wrath
3). Not understanding the severity and magnitude of God's coming, unprecedented wrath
4). Not understanding the underlying principal that Christ already experienced God's wrath on behalf of all believers.
PennEd described the differences succinctly between the two events in post #13. Prior to the Lord's return to the earth to end the age, the wrath of God must take place via the seals, trumpets and bowl judgments. It is shortly after the seventh bowl has been poured out that Jesus returns to the earth. Since Jesus already experienced God's wrath on behalf of every believer satisfying it completely, then believers will not and cannot be on the earth during the time of God's wrath, which begins at the opening of the first seal.
There are those who believe that God is going to preserve the church on the earth during the time of His wrath, which brings us to number 3). God's coming wrath via the seals, trumpets and bowl judgments, as well as the plagues that the two witnesses bring, will be the worst time in history, with the majority of the earths population being decimated and all human government being dismantled (See Dan.2:31-45, Rev.6 thru 18). With just the results of the 4th seal and the 6 trumpet alone, (which are the only two places that give a percentage of the fatalities), a fourth and a third of the earths population will be killed, which is well over half of the earths population and that within just the first 3 1/2 years. This is not including the fatalities resulting from trumpets 1, 2 and 3, nor the fatalities resulting from the seven bowl judgments. This is all supported by what Jesus said:
"For then there will be a great tribulation, such as has not occurred since the beginning of the world until now, nor ever will. “Unless those days had been cut short, no life would have been saved; but for the sake of the elect those days will be cut short."
In the scripture above, Jesus is basically saying that as a result of God's wrath/tribulation, that if it was allowed to go on any longer, no one would be left alive on the earth.
Beginning from the middle of the seven years, scripture states that the beast will be given 42 months (last 3 1/2 years) to make war against the saints and to conquer them. If the church was here on the earth as some claim, then they would have to be those saints spoken of in Rev.13:5-7, which would demonstrate that God would not be protecting the church during that time, for many of them are beheaded. Fortunately, this is not in reference to the church, but the great tribulation saints.
Those who place the church on the earth during the time of God's wrath will make the comment that the apostles and the first century church were not protected or removed, but were persecuted and killed for their faith. The problem with this thinking is that they did not suffer God's wrath. They are not recognizing the difference between the common trials and tribulation which come at the hands of men and the powers of darkness, which Jesus said all believers would experience vs. God's direct, unprecedented, coming wrath. It is the latter that believers are not appointed to suffer.
Regarding God's wrath and believers not being exposed to it, see the following scriptures:
Romans 5:9 - "Since we have now been justified by his blood, how much more shall we be saved from God’s wrath through him!"
1 Thess.1:10 - "They tell how you turned to God from idols to serve the living and true God, and to wait for his Son from heaven, whom he raised from the dead—Jesus, who rescues us from the coming wrath."
1 Thess.5:9 - "For God did not appoint us to suffer wrath but to receive salvation through our Lord Jesus Christ."
In continuing with their claim that the church will be on the earth, some have claimed that the above mentioned wrath is referring to the wrath at the great white throne judgment the result being the lake of fire. However, believers are not appointed to suffer any of God's wrath, whether the unprecedented wrath coming upon this earth, nor the ultimate wrath at white throne judgment. And that, as previously stated, is because Jesus already took upon himself God's wrath on behalf of every believer, otherwise it would be a double payment. Then we have the following promise:
Revelation 3:10 - "Because you have kept the word of My perseverance, I also will keep you out of the hour of testing, that
hour which is about to come upon the whole world, to test those who dwell on the earth."
The word "ek" is translated as "out of" meaning that for those who endure patiently, they will be kept out of that hour of trial, not thru it or during, but keep out of the time of God's wrath. And that by being changed and caught up according to His promise.
In addition to all of this, I would also add that within Revelation chapters 1 thru 3, the word "ekklesia" translated as "church" is used 19 times. Then from Rev.4:1 onward, the word ekklesia/church never appears again within the narrative. In Rev.4:1 where John hears that voice that sounds like a trumpet, which was identified in Rev.1:10 as being Jesus' voice, is saying "come up here and I will show you what must take place after this!" I truly believe that this is a prophetic allusion to where the church is called up, which again is substantiated by the fact that the word ekklesia/church no longer appears from that time forward. The next time the church is alluded to is in Rev.19:6-8 as the bride. And the next time we actually see the word church again is in Rev. 22:16 in the epilog.
Further more, Rev.19:11-21 is a detailed account of the second coming when Jesus returns to the earth to end the age. Prior to that in Rev.19:6-8 we see the bride/church receiving her fine linen, white and clean at the wedding of the Lamb. Then in Rev.19:14, we see the bride/church wearing her fine linen and riding on white horses following the Lord out of heaven. Consequently, the bride/church would already have to be in heaven in order to follow the Lord out of heaven. This is also supported by the following:
"They (the beast and the ten kings) will wage war against the Lamb, but the Lamb will triumph over them because he is Lord of lords and King of kings—
and with him will be his called, chosen and faithful followers.”
The conclusion is that, because Jesus took upon himself God's wrath on behalf of every believer, satisfying it completely, then we cannot be exposed to God's wrath. And since God's wrath takes place prior to the Lord's return to the earth to end the age, then believer's must be removed prior to the first seal being opened which initiates God's wrath. This will all be in fulfillment of the Lord's promise in John 14:1-31 and Thessalonian 4:13-17.