Self-Defense

Deade · Aug 16, 2019

We were given the scripture of turn the other cheek by Jesus. Let’s look at that. Matt. 5:39 “But I say unto you, That ye resist not evil: but whosoever shall smite thee on thy right cheek, turn to him the other also.”

Why do you suppose He used the term “resist not evil?” God controls everything and everybody. Therefore, if evil comes against, God has allowed it. We should consider it a test. That said, I feel God has instructed me that “turn the other cheek” is not addressing self-defense. That is more like refusing to engage in a duel, as aristocrats using their gloves to smite someone in challenge.

Jesus was not discussing self-defense. Read the next three verses and you see He is speaking handling confrontation. The account in Luke has it in the same verse: Luke 6:29 “And unto him that smiteth thee on the one cheek offer also the other; and him that taketh away thy cloke forbid not to take thy coat also.”

So, let's discuss this as it pertains to serving as police or military also.

MessageOfTheCross · Aug 16, 2019

Jesus answered, “You could have no power at all against Me unless it had been given you from above. Therefore the one who delivered Me to you has the greater sin.” John 19:11

God is just: He will pay back trouble to those who trouble you (2 Thessalonians 1:6).

JaumeJ · Aug 16, 2019

Deade said:

We were given the scripture of turn the other cheek by Jesus. Let’s look at that. Matt. 5:39 “But I say unto you, That ye resist not evil: but whosoever shall smite thee on thy right cheek, turn to him the other also.”

Why do you suppose He used the term “resist not evil?” God controls everything and everybody. Therefore, if evil comes against, God has allowed it. We should consider it a test. That said, I feel God has instructed me that “turn the other cheek” is not addressing self-defense. That is more like refusing to engage in a duel, as aristocrats using their gloves to smite someone in challenge.

Jesus was not discussing self-defense. Read the next three verses and you see He is speaking handling confrontation. The account in Luke has it in the same verse: Luke 6:29 “And unto him that smiteth thee on the one cheek offer also the other; and him that taketh away thy cloke forbid not to take thy coat also.”

So, let's discuss this as it pertains to serving as police or military also. View attachment 202843

Incredibly well formed andthought out!. It is refreshing to hear, and I do hope all who say they love, and love Jesus, will read dyour post and truly understand all it conveys. It is a truly grand post. All love and blessing in you Savior...j

CharliRenee · Aug 16, 2019

Deade, yes yes yes, perfectly written. I wish i had seen this before I wrote a 5000 word essay trying to address the same thing.

But isn't confrontation a point where self defense comes in. I def think police and military are defending others. I def agree with those and find that very honorable. I am so grateful.

MessageOfTheCross · Aug 16, 2019

It is very easy for many Believers confusing the hand of man vs. the Hand of God.

THE CONSECRATION OF THE SAINT

“12 And the LORD said unto Satan, Behold, all that he has is in your power; only upon himself put not forth your hand. So Satan went forth from the Presence of the LORD. (There were limitations placed on what Satan could do, as there are with all Believers. Concerning this, Williams says: “Job does not symbolize an unconverted, but a converted, man. It was necessary that one of God’s children should be chosen for this trial; for the subject of the Book is not the conversion of the sinner, but the consecration of the Saint. It is evident that an unconverted man needs to be brought to the end of himself; but that a man who feared God, who was perfect, and who hated evil should also need this is not so clear.

“We find in this Book that God uses Satan, calamity, and sickness to be His instruments in creating character and making men partakers of His Holiness. Such were the instruments; but the Hand that used them was God’s; and the facts of this Book explain to Christian people, who, like Job, are conscious of personal integrity, why calamities, sorrows, and diseases are permitted to afflict them.”)” Job 1:12

“22 Confirming the souls of the Disciples (pertained to the new converts in these areas), and exhorting them to continue in the Faith (it is not he who begins, but he who finishes), and that we must through much tribulation enter into the Kingdom of God (quite a different Message than that being presently proposed).” Acts14:22

Until the time came to fulfill his dreams, the LORD tested Joseph’s character. (Regarding the mission that God had for Joseph, which Joseph was not even aware of, he would have to be put to the test. Faith must be tested, and great Faith must be tested greatly.)” Psalm 105:19 NLT

“10 Behold, I have refined you, but not with silver; I have chosen you in the furnace of affliction. (Israel was “refined” in Egypt, and was to be “refined” after Isaiah’s day in Babylon, and will be “refined” during the coming Great Tribulation. The “furnace of affliction” always has to do with wrongdoing on the part of the individual or nation. The Lord allows the affliction, hopefully, that it will bring the person or nation to Repentance! Consequently, Israel still has one great “furnace of affliction” to go through!)” Isaiah 48:10

“7 That the trial of your Faith (all Faith is tested, and great Faith must be tested greatly), being much more precious than of gold that perishes (the emphasis is the testing of our Faith to show whether or not it is genuine; the Holy Spirit says such is more precious than the testing of gold, which is the most precious commodity in the world; is our Faith really in the Cross or not?), though it be tried with fire (the fire of temptation, trouble, etc.; such are meant to show the weakness), might be found unto Praise and Honour and Glory (which can only be done if the Cross of Christ is the sole Object of our Faith) at the appearing of Jesus Christ (we are being prepared by the Holy Spirit as fit subjects for the appearing of our Lord, as it regards the Rapture):” 1 Peter 1:7

JSM

MessageOfTheCross · Aug 16, 2019

Continue

“12 Beloved, think it not strange concerning the fiery trial which is to try you (trials do not merely happen; they are designed by wisdom and operated by love; Job proved this), as though some strange thing happened unto you (your trial, whatever it is, is not unique; many others are experiencing the same thing!):

13 But rejoice (despite the trial), inasmuch as you are partakers of Christ’s sufferings (refers to suffering for Righteousness’ sake); that, when His Glory shall be revealed (refers to His Second Coming), you may be glad also with exceeding joy. (There will be great joy in the heart of every Saint when we come back with the Lord at the Second Coming.)

“14 If you be reproached for the Name of Christ, happy are you (should have been translated, “since you are reproached”); for the Spirit of Glory and of God rests upon you (refers to the Holy Spirit): on their part He is evil spoken of, but on your part He is glorified. (This refers to the fact that the world, and even the apostate Church, reproaches this sacred influence of the Holy Spirit by their treatment of true Christians. But if we conduct ourselves correctly, the Lord is Glorified in our lives.)

15 But let none of you suffer as a murderer, or as a thief, or as an evildoer, or as a busybody in other men’s matters. (This Scripture plainly tells us that if the Christian doesn’t place His Faith entirely in the Cross, which guarantees the help of the Holy Spirit, these things Peter mentioned can definitely happen. That’s why it is imperative every Believer knows and understands the Message of the Cross.)”

“16 Yet if any man suffer as a Christian (which sometimes happens for Righteousness’ sake), let him not be ashamed (such a one is not suffering because of lack of Faith, but rather because of his Faith); but let him glorify God on this behalf. (If we truly suffer for Righteousness’ sake, such suffering will always glorify the Lord. We should rejoice accordingly [Vs. 13].)

JUDGMENT

17 For the time is come that judgment must begin at the House of God (Judgment always begins with Believers, and pertains to their Faith, whether in the Cross or otherwise; the Cross alone is spared Judgment, for there Jesus was judged in our place): and if it first begin at us, what shall the end be of them who obey not the Gospel of God? (If God will Judge His Own, how much more will He Judge the unredeemed? The Cross alone stays the Judgment of God. Let that ever be understood.)”

“18 And if the Righteous scarcely be saved (can be saved only by trusting Christ and the Cross, and nothing else), where shall the ungodly and the sinner appear? (If the great Sacrifice of Christ is rejected and spurned, where does that leave those who do such a thing? There is no hope for their Salvation.)

19 Wherefore let them who suffer according to the Will of God (it really doesn’t matter what we have to go through in order to live for God, the end result will be worth it a million times over) commit the keeping of their souls to Him in well doing (victory is assured if we continue to look to the Cross), as unto a Faithful Creator. (This means God hasn’t created an insufficient Salvation. He has created a Way through the Death of Christ that guarantees victory, if we will only follow that Way.)” 1 Peter 4:12-19

“12 Fight the good fight of Faith (in essence, the only fight we’re called upon to engage; every attack by Satan against the Believer, irrespective of its form, is to destroy or seriously weaken our Faith; he wants to push our Faith from the Cross to other things), lay hold on Eternal Life (we do such by understanding that all Life comes from Christ, and the means is the Cross), whereunto you are also Called (Called to follow Christ), and have professed a good profession before many witnesses. (This does not refer to a particular occasion, but to the entirety of his life for Christ.)” 1 Timothy 6:12

JSM

MessageOfTheCross · Aug 16, 2019

The violent process of separating the wheat and the chaff

“11 I indeed baptize you with water unto Repentance (Water Baptism was an outward act of an inward work already carried out): but He (Christ) Who comes after me is mightier than I, Whose Shoes I am not worthy to bear: He shall baptize you with the Holy Spirit, and with fire (to burn out the sinful dross [Acts 2:2-4]):

12 Whose fan is in His Hand (the ancient method for winnowing grain), and He will thoroughly purge His Floor (“purging it, that it may bring forth more fruit” [Jn. 15:2]), and gather His Wheat into the garner (the end product as developed by the Spirit); but He will burn up the chaff with unquenchable fire (the wheat is symbolic of the Work of the Spirit, while the chaff is symbolic of the work of the flesh).” Matthew 3:11-12

WHOSE FAN IS IN HIS HAND

The Work of the Holy Spirit is here outlined, which will, without fail, take place in the hearts and lives of Believers.

The phrase, "Whose fan is in His Hand," refers to the ancient method of winnowing grain.

After the stalks had been pulverized on the threshingfloor, a worker would use a pitchfork of sorts, throwing the grain and the husk in the air.

Another worker, that is, if there was no wind, would use giant palm fronds or some other type of apparatus, fanning the grain and the husk. Consequently, the husks, which were much lighter, would be blown to the side of the threshingfloor, with the grain falling back to the floor.

This would be continued until all the husks were separated from the grain, with the grain being placed into the garner.

The idea is, the primary task of the Holy Spirit in the life of the Believer is to bring about this process, using whatever is necessary in order to separate the chaff from the grain. This "wind" created by the "fan" may come in various ways, such as adversity, persecution, chastisement, etc., but, to be sure, it will come.

As well, it speaks of a violent process, which is not at all appetizing to the flesh, but will prove to be invigorating to the spirit.

DAVID

As an example, one would ask as to why the Lord, after having Samuel anoint David to be the future king of Israel, would allow Saul to persecute him as he did, even causing great tribulation for a period of about 15 years.

The answer is found in Verse 12. Even though David was anointed by God to be the king of Israel, still, there were traits in David’s life that needed to be removed. Regrettably, those traits, as in all of us, could not be removed easily but only by adversity and persecution, which are meant to teach us trust and dependence on the Lord, in other words, that the flesh may be humbled.

David was anointed, but he was not ready! It would take this crucible of persecution by Saul to make him ready!

The story of Moses teaches us that “40 years in the desert was needed to humble the strength of the “flesh” and destroy its hope; the possible king of Egypt was now an obscure shepherd.” Exodus 3:1-2

THE BRANCH

2 Every branch (Believer) in Me (to have Salvation, we must be “in Christ” which refers to trusting in what He did at the Cross) that bears not fruit (the Holy Spirit Alone can bring forth fruit within our lives, and He does such through the Finished Work of Christ, which demands that the Cross ever be the Object of our Faith) He takes away (if the Believer refuses the Cross, ultimately, he will be taken out of the Body of Christ): and every branch that bears fruit (has some understanding of Christ and the Cross), He purges it (uses whatever means necessary to make the Cross the total Object of one’s Faith), that it may bring forth more fruit (only when the Cross becomes the total Object of one’s Faith can the Holy Spirit perform His Work of bringing forth proper fruit [Rom. 8:1-2, 11]).” John 15:2

MessageOfTheCross · Aug 16, 2019

THE PURGING OF THE FLOOR

The Phrase, "And He will thoroughly purge His Floor," is actually the violent part of the process.

The Threshingfloor of old generally consisted of a large flat portion of rock that could be used for this purpose.

The grain would be piled on top of this rock (floor), with several different methods used to purge the grain from the husk. At times, an ox cart was used, with it being pulled back and forth across the grain, with its heavy wheels breaking the grains loose from the husk. This was done repeatedly until it was ready to be thrown in the air, as recently stated.

The purging process has to do with what Jesus spoke of in taking away the branches from the tree that did not bear fruit and, consequently, "purging it, that it may bring forth more fruit" (John 15:2).

As stated, this is a violent process, which, at times, makes the Believer think he will not survive it. This has to do with the age old struggle of the "flesh and the Spirit." They constantly war against one another because one or the other must ultimately go. To be sure, this war is not quick, and the battle is not won easily.

THE THRESHINGFLOOR

Many have attempted to circumvent the "threshingfloor" with many and varied schemes, not the least of them being the modern confession principle. However, regardless of how Scripturally valid that it may be in its place, the flesh cannot be confessed out, and this work be effected in one's heart. Too oftentimes, this method only produces more religious flesh. Even though such is covered up with religious phraseology, petted and pampered, and made to seem holy to a carnal world, still it is "flesh" and must ultimately be purged, that is, if we want the Lord.

THE GARNER

The phrase, "And gather His Wheat into the garner," concerns the end product as developed by the Spirit.

Even after Conversion, and especially after Conversion, our Spiritual Eyes are still a mixture of "chaff" and "wheat." The "chaff" constitutes the work of the flesh while the "wheat" constitutes the Work of the Spirit. They must, and without fail, be separated. The reason should be obvious!

Any and all accepted by God can only be that which is the Product of the Holy Spirit. Any product of man, i.e., the flesh, must be rejected out of hand, and not only rejected, but separated and ultimately burned. As stated, this is the great basic Work of the Holy Spirit in the life of the Believer. It is a Work that He will carry out with vigor and faithfulness with one view in mind, and that is to "present us faultless before the Presence of His Glory with exceeding joy" (Jude 24).

This is also the reason Jude said, "And others save with fear, pulling them out of the fire; hating even the garment spotted by the flesh" (Jude 23).

UNQUENCHABLE FIRE

He was speaking of this "fire" mentioned by John the Baptist!

The phrase, "But He will burn up the chaff with unquenchable fire," pertains to that which will be done to the "chaff." This speaks of all our trust and our good works, plus religious acceptance, place and position, and all we prize so highly other than Christ.

Regrettably, this "chaff" abides even in the godliest and, consequently, must be separated, and at whatever price.

JSM

MessageOfTheCross · Aug 16, 2019

HE PURGED BRANCH

The phrase, "And every branch that bears fruit, He purges it, that it may bring forth more fruit," proclaims the exact opposite of the first phrase.

He plainly tells us that the branch which bears fruit will be purged, which, in the Greek, means "to cleanse, as in to make pure.'

One may wonder as to how fruit could be developed when there is uncleanness and impurities.

The truth is, there are no perfect Christians, but the Lord looks beyond the surface and, as well, the impurities, etc., "searching the heart, trying the reins, even to give every man according to his ways, and according to the fruit of his doings" (Jeremiah 17:10). The very fact that the branch is bearing fruit shows there is a hunger for God, even a hunger and thirst which are intensifying, desiring all that God has for the Believer.

However, once again, this does not mean perfection, and indeed cannot, at least as long as we live in this body of flesh.

However, many, if not the majority, in the church wrongly interpret purging, thinking it is destruction. As such, they write off such as being of no more consequence. What they do not seem to realize is that the "purging" is not because of a lack of fruit but the very opposite. There has been fruit, and wonderful fruit at that, but the Holy Spirit sees that there is a potential for much more. Consequently, the Father, Who is the Vinedresser, purges the branch in order that it may bring forth "more fruit," which refers to greater quantity, but above all, greater quality.

THE PURGING

The cleansing effect of the purging is brought on by the Word of God; consequently, it is the criterion for all things pertaining to God. In other words, the "Vinedresser" does whatever is necessary to bring one's life in every respect in accordance with the "Word." The actual carrying out of this task is done by the Holy Spirit through Whom the "Vinedresser" works. This is partly what John the Baptist meant when he spoke of Jesus "baptizing with the Holy Spirit, and with fire" (Matthew 3:11-12) This is the refiner's fire, as spoken of by Malachi (Malachi 3:3).

Malachi 3:3 - "And He shall sit as a Refiner and Purifier of silver," refers to the purifier who sits watching the silver and maintaining the temperature; directly when he sees his face reflected in the metal, he stops the process.

The word "clean" in the Greek is "Katharos" and means "to be free from impure admixture, without blemish, spotless, and blameless, " which can only be brought about by the shed Blood of Jesus Christ, with the Believer making that the Object of his Faith.

Crustyone · Aug 16, 2019

The police and military are acting on God's behalf and are therefore "instructed" to use force to contain evil. [Romans 13:4 (For the one in authority is God’s servant for your good. But if you do wrong, be afraid, for rulers do not bear the sword for no reason. They are God’s servants, agents of wrath to bring punishment on the wrongdoer. )] In Luke 3:14 John the Baptist did not tell soldiers not to kill and the soldiers of that day also acted as police. [Luke 3:14 (Then some soldiers asked him, “And what should we do?” He replied, “Don’t extort money and don’t accuse people falsely—be content with your pay.”)]

It seems obvious that when acting on our own we need to let God protect us as he and his Son said they would. God wants others to see that is his power that protects and not our own abilities. [Exodus 9:13-16 (13 Then the Lord said to Moses, “Get up early in the morning, confront Pharaoh and say to him, ‘This is what the Lord, the God of the Hebrews, says: Let my people go, so that they may worship me, 14 or this time I will send the full force of my plagues against you and against your officials and your people, so you may know that there is no one like me in all the earth. 15 For by now I could have stretched out my hand and struck you and your people with a plague that would have wiped you off the earth. 16 But I have raised you up for this very purpose, that I might show you my power and that my name might be proclaimed in all the earth. )] [All scripture from the New International Version (NIV) bible]

MessageOfTheCross · Aug 16, 2019

12 And hath seen in a vision a man named Ananias coming in, and putting his hand on him, that he might receive his sight.

13 Then Ananias answered, Lord, I have heard by many of this man, how much evil he hath done to thy saints at Jerusalem:

14 And here he hath authority from the chief priests to bind all that call on thy name.

15 But the Lord said unto him, Go thy way: for he is a chosen vessel unto Me, to bear My Name before the Gentiles, and kings, and the children of Israel:

16 For I will shew him how great things he must suffer for My Name's sake.

17 And Ananias went his way, and entered into the house; and putting his hands on him said, Brother Saul, the Lord, even Jesus, that appeared unto thee in the way as thou camest, hath sent me, that thou mightest receive thy sight, and be filled with the Holy Ghost.

18 And immediately there fell from his eyes as it had been scales: and he received sight forthwith, and arose, and was baptized. Acts 9

2 Timothy 3:12 12Yea, and all that will live godly in Christ Jesus shall suffer persecution.

Deade · Aug 16, 2019

Crustyone said:

To me, self-defense is just common sense. You say Jesus instructed the soldiers to kill no man? Would that not amount to desertion? They would have to completely leave the military as conscientious objectors, which would go over really well in ancient Rome.

Let's look at what Jesus said in you verse: Luke 3:14 "And the soldiers likewise demanded of him, saying, And what shall we do? And he said unto them, Do violence to no man, neither accuse any falsely; and be content with your wages."

The word used for violence is:

Violence = G1286
διασείω
diaseiō
dee-as-i'-o
From G1223 and G4579; to shake thoroughly, that is, (figuratively) to intimidate: - do violence to.

So, this is a little different than "do not kill." Jesus would have instructed them to complete leave their ranks if they couldn't carry out their duties (which might include kill).

dcontroversal · Aug 16, 2019

This horse named Ignorance was trodden under foot when a former member peddled praying if his girlfriend was being raped or murdered....He also said that is he seen a murder or rapist going after his girlfriend he would try to "TRIP" the guy......

Listen.....GOD uses governments to work his will (Romans 13) and Solomon said their is a time to KILL which is different than MURDER found in the "BIG 10".......

NO ONE will ever convince me that it would be a sin or against the word of GOD to rise up and lethally defend a woman, child or believer being raped, murdered or accosted by a violent bloody man or men.........

I can tell you that as a MARINE (from the 80's) and a man, that I would defend ANY cop, fireman, neighbor, believer, Jewish person, woman or child lethally if need be.....I pack every where I go and WILL do it with a clear conscience.....!!

Deade · Aug 16, 2019

dcontroversal said:

Don, I thank you for your service in the Corp. I used to fellowship with the Denver Conference of the Church of God Seventh-Day which chose to be conscientious objectors. A young marine from there was courting my daughter while we were in missions in Oakland, CA. Obviously, he felt he could fight a legitimate battle or he wouldn't have enlisted.

He recognized me as an elder as did many others from that denomination. But he knew of my stance and he came to me right before the Desert Storm (I believe that was the first?) and asked me what he should do.

I guess some thought he shouldn't fight. I assured him that Sadam was just like a bandit and needed to be stopped. He seemed to have peace of mind with it after our talk.

TheLearner · Aug 16, 2019

Deade said:

We were given the scripture of turn the other cheek by Jesus. Let’s look at that. Matt. 5:39 “But I say unto you, That ye resist not evil: but whosoever shall smite thee on thy right cheek, turn to him the other also.”

Why do you suppose He used the term “resist not evil?” God controls everything and everybody. Therefore, if evil comes against, God has allowed it. We should consider it a test. That said, I feel God has instructed me that “turn the other cheek” is not addressing self-defense. That is more like refusing to engage in a duel, as aristocrats using their gloves to smite someone in challenge.

Jesus was not discussing self-defense. Read the next three verses and you see He is speaking handling confrontation. The account in Luke has it in the same verse: Luke 6:29 “And unto him that smiteth thee on the one cheek offer also the other; and him that taketh away thy cloke forbid not to take thy coat also.”

So, let's discuss this as it pertains to serving as police or military also. View attachment 202843

TheLearner · Aug 16, 2019

Exodus 22:4 Easy-to-Read Version (ERV)
2-4 If he owns nothing, then he will be sold as a slave. But if the man still has the animal and you find it, that man must give the owner two animals for every animal he stole. It doesn’t matter if the animal was a bull, a donkey, or a sheep.

“If a thief is killed while trying to break into a house at night, then no one will be guilty for killing him. But if this happens during the day, the one who killed him will be guilty of murder.

Should you protect your family?

TheLearner · Aug 16, 2019

Self defense does not mean you must kill your attacker, just use enough force to subdue them for the purpose of keeping them from harming others or harming yourself.

Exodus 15:3 Easy-to-Read Version (ERV)
3 The Lord is a great soldier.
The Lord is his name.

TheLearner · Aug 16, 2019

Deade said:

We were given the scripture of turn the other cheek by Jesus. Let’s look at that. Matt. 5:39 “But I say unto you, That ye resist not evil: but whosoever shall smite thee on thy right cheek, turn to him the other also.”

Why do you suppose He used the term “resist not evil?” God controls everything and everybody. Therefore, if evil comes against, God has allowed it. We should consider it a test. That said, I feel God has instructed me that “turn the other cheek” is not addressing self-defense. That is more like refusing to engage in a duel, as aristocrats using their gloves to smite someone in challenge.

Jesus was not discussing self-defense. Read the next three verses and you see He is speaking handling confrontation. The account in Luke has it in the same verse: Luke 6:29 “And unto him that smiteth thee on the one cheek offer also the other; and him that taketh away thy cloke forbid not to take thy coat also.”

So, let's discuss this as it pertains to serving as police or military also. View attachment 202843

Your proof texts are in the context of controlling anger. It simply means do not seek to retaliate.

TheLearner · Aug 16, 2019

Luke 11:21 “When a strong man, fully armed, guards his own mansion, his property is safe.”

TheLearner · Aug 16, 2019

https://www.biblicalselfdefense.com/

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