Is unconditional election biblical?

When you say "God saves all kinds of men" if you mean all kinds of "elect" men, then I agree, because I do not believe the scriptures to teach that God eternally saves any that are not included in those of his elect. Then that would make 2 Tim 2:4 read "all kinds of elect men". Would it not? If I could persuade you, could you give me your views on Rom 10:1-2-3?

this means i was sheep before i even believed how is that possible?

They are not innocent. They are enemies of God. And, so are all of those that God extends mercy to.

By the way, free-willer thought appeals to the fleshly man, so expect your heart strings to be plucked by the alleged injustices of Reformed theology. The reality is that NO MAN DESERVES ANYTHING.

What they receive is more mercy than they deserve. That includes me and you.

Fleshly men have an entitlement mentality. They think they are entitled, and therefore don't recognize grace when they see it.

i see in john 10:26 Jesus states it clearly. its opposite of what i have been taught and what i say. and it doesnt seem right to me but it says what it does. i look at all translations and in the greek linear too.

2 Chronicles 19:7: “Now therefore, let the fear of the Lord be upon you; take care and do it, for there is no iniquity with the Lord our God, no partiality, nor taking of bribes.”

Job 34:19: “Yet He is not partial to princes, nor does He regard the rich more than the poor; for they are all the work of His hands.”

Romans 2:10-11: “But glory, honor, and peace to everyone who works what is good, to the Jew first and also to the Greek. For there is no partiality with God.”

Galatians 5:6: “For in Christ Jesus neither circumcision or uncircumcision avails anything, but faith working through love.”

1 Peter 1:17: “And if you call on the Father, who without partiality judges according to each one’s work, conduct yourselves throughout the time of your stay here in fear.”

Colossians 3:25
For he who does wrong will receive the consequences of the wrong which he has done, and that without partiality.

Acts 10:34
Opening his mouth, Peter said: "I most certainly understand now that God is not one to show partiality,


Ephesians 6:9
And masters, do the same things to them, and give up threatening, knowing that both their Master and yours is in heaven, and there is no partiality with Him.

Acts 15:9
and He made no distinction between us and them, cleansing their hearts by faith.

Romans 10:12
For there is no distinction between Jew and Greek; for the same Lord is Lord of all, abounding in riches for all who call on Him;

Verse after verse tells us who our God is... Impartial, loving, no respecter of persons. Who tells us what He expects from us...

But the wisdom from above is first pure, then peaceable, gentle, open to reason, full of mercy and good fruits, impartial and sincere.
James 3:17 ESV

I will not claim full understanding of the process of election or disclaim His work that shows choosing, such as in the cases of Pharaoh or Judas. But I believe that their ways, thoughts and hearts, were susceptible to the hardened, reprobate, heart condition. Just as satan himself was once a creature of good, until His pride caused His fall. Do we believe God created satan to cause us to fall, to have depraved minds, such that there is no hope for some, even with Christ's death and resurrection, because God chose to make no choice for some?

Wouldn't that make God who is love very partial, wouldn't that oppose who we believe Him to be, what He tells us He is, time and time again... impartial?

We can not add words like all elect men, to all men to find harmony in the scripture. We have to find harmony in the word as it is written.

I believe now that we are elected, chosen, once we give our lives to the One who saved us. I understand the sheep who hear his voice belong to Him, but that does not equate to me that God made it such that we are without choice, because God loves us enough to give us a choice.

He show His mercy and impartiality, with our choice given.

I'd encourage you to spend the hour and watch this video. I think this guy does about as good a job as possible on this very difficult issue:

Thanks, I think we are on the same page so far. I have a different understanding than everyone on this forum of what the scriptures teach on the salvation scriptures, in that, I do not believe that all salvation scriptures are referring to an eternal deliverance, and that many of them are referring to a deliverance we receive as we live here on earth, such as 2 Tim 2:4 and Rom 10:1-2-3.

The Faith of Christ . . not that which we offer towards Christ is the gift of God. . . not of our own selves least any man boast in unbelief .

I would ask delivered from what? The entanglement of sin , or Romans. deliverance from trying to establish ones own righteousness?

By the way, I don't deny that the salvation of the elect is "in Christ".

I totally believe in union with Christ.

However, election is unto union with Christ. God elects specific individuals to be joined to Christ, These individuals form his Church, the spiritual body of Christ.

The claim of "corporate election" guys is that God does not elect. The person somehow finds their way into salvation, and is united with Christ, and thus becomes "the elect" by virtue of being identified with Christ, the elect one.

However, the language of John 6, 10 is clear that the Father draws the elect person, because the person has been chosen to belong to Christ. And, the reason they believe is BECAUSE of this election. They do not believe to become part of the elect.

I also mentioned 1 Corinthians 1, that states God does not choose noble, strong, intelligent people, but chooses common, weak, less intelligent people so that his glory will be magnified through them.

A good analogy would be the star athletes who are often picking teams for intramural games. Generally, what happens is that the star athletes pick the best athletes for their team, and the worst ones are chosen last. Well, in God's economy, he would choose the worst athletes, so that his glory can be displayed maximally through weakness.

And, like I've said, Reformed theology is all about glorifying God, not man. Well-instructed Reformed believers know that man is full of pride and vanity, and that God hates pride more than anything else. If someone develops pride as a believer, he can expect to be humbled through the sanctification process....and that "someone" is all of us at some points, I'm afraid.

Some scriptures will not make sense until Christ is fully done with all dispensations. Like the debate over John 3: 16: "For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life."

When it says whosoever, it means just that. The devil is very much into religion and has been for a very long time. He started with his counterfeit Christianity as far back as the first century (see 1 John 2:18).

2 Chronicles 19:7: “Now therefore, let the fear of the Lord be upon you; take care and do it, for there is no iniquity with the Lord our God, no partiality, nor taking of bribes.”

Job 34:19: “Yet He is not partial to princes, nor does He regard the rich more than the poor; for they are all the work of His hands.”

Romans 2:10-11: “But glory, honor, and peace to everyone who works what is good, to the Jew first and also to the Greek. For there is no partiality with God.”

Galatians 5:6: “For in Christ Jesus neither circumcision or uncircumcision avails anything, but faith working through love.”

1 Peter 1:17: “And if you call on the Father, who without partiality judges according to each one’s work, conduct yourselves throughout the time of your stay here in fear.”

Colossians 3:25
For he who does wrong will receive the consequences of the wrong which he has done, and that without partiality.

Acts 10:34
Opening his mouth, Peter said: "I most certainly understand now that God is not one to show partiality,


Ephesians 6:9
And masters, do the same things to them, and give up threatening, knowing that both their Master and yours is in heaven, and there is no partiality with Him.

Acts 15:9
and He made no distinction between us and them, cleansing their hearts by faith.

Romans 10:12
For there is no distinction between Jew and Greek; for the same Lord is Lord of all, abounding in riches for all who call on Him;

Verse after verse tells us who our God is... Impartial, loving, no respecter of persons. Who tells us what He expects from us...

But the wisdom from above is first pure, then peaceable, gentle, open to reason, full of mercy and good fruits, impartial and sincere.
James 3:17 ESV

I will not claim full understanding of the process of election or disclaim His work that shows choosing, such as in the cases of Pharaoh or Judas. But I believe that their ways, thoughts and hearts, were susceptible to the hardened, reprobate, heart condition. Just as satan himself was once a creature of good, until His pride caused His fall. Do we believe God created satan to cause us to fall, to have depraved minds, such that there is no hope for some, even with Christ's death and resurrection, because God chose to make no choice for some?

Wouldn't that make God who is love very partial, wouldn't that oppose who we believe Him to be, what He tells us He is, time and time again... impartial?

We can not add words like all elect men, to all men to find harmony in the scripture. We have to find harmony in the word as it is written.

I believe now that we are elected, chosen, once we give our lives to the One who saved us. I understand the sheep who hear his voice belong to Him, but that does not equate to me that God made it such that we are without choice, because God loves us enough to give us a choice.

He show His mercy and impartiality, with our choice given.

I made a post covering some of "John 6" some time back:

[quoting that entire post (some things might not transfer correctly, the emphasis, etc)]


[note, this post will cover the following passages: Acts 3:22-26; Matthew 10:5-7; John 12:32-33; John 6:41-58 [64][35]; John 7:17; John 17:6-20; 1 John 4:14; 1 John 5:10-12; along with my comments]

Acts 3 [blb]-

22 For Moses said, ‘The Lord your God will raise up to you [this is His earthly ministry BEFORE His death] a prophet like me out from your brothers. You will listen to Him in all things, as many as He might say to you. 23 And it will be that every soul who might not heed that prophet will be utterly destroyed out from the people.’
24 And also all the prophets from Samuel, and those subsequently, as many as have spoken, also have proclaimed these days. 25 You are the sons of the prophets and of the covenant that God made with your fathers, saying to Abraham, ‘And in your seed all the families of the earth will be blessed.’ 26 God, having raised up His servant [that is, in His earthly ministry BEFORE His death], sent Him first to you, blessing you in turning away each of you from your wickednesses.”

[and verse 19 had said, "Repent ye therefore, and be converted, that your sins may be blotted out, when the times of refreshing shall come from the presence of the Lord; And He shall send Jesus Christ... Whom..." etc]

[Matt10:5-7 had said, "5 These twelve, Jesus sent forth, having instructed them, saying: “Do not go into the way of the Gentiles and do not enter into any city of the Samaritans. 6 But go rather to those being the lost sheep of the house of Israel. 7 And going on, proclaim, saying, ‘The kingdom of the heavens has drawn near!’ (this is not what is to be proclaimed presently [in "this present age [singular]"], but will again in the future trib, in slightly differing phrasing) ]


John 12:32-33 [blb] -

32 And I, if I am lifted up from the earth, will draw all to Myself.” 33 Now He was saying this, signifying by what death He was about to die. [compare this with your John 6:44 verse]


John 6:41-58 [blb] - [dialogue with skeptical inquiring multitude (vv.24-29), that though they'd seen Him, still did not believe (v.36) ]

41 Therefore the Jews were grumbling about Him because He said, “I am the bread having come down from heaven.” 42 And they were saying, “Is this not Jesus the son of Joseph, whose father and mother we know? How then does He say, ‘I have come down from heaven?’”

43 Jesus answered and said to them, “Do not grumble with one another. 44 No one is able to come to Me unless the Father, the one having sent Me, draws him, and I will raise him up in the last day. 45 It is written in the prophets: ‘And they will all be taught of God.’ Everyone having heard from the Father and having learned, comes to Me. 46 Not that anyone has seen the Father, except the One being from God; He has seen the Father.
47 Truly, truly, I say to you, the one believing has eternal life. 48 I am the bread of life. 49 Your fathers ate the manna in the wilderness and died. 50 This is the bread coming down from heaven, that anyone may eat of it and not die. 51 I am the living bread, having come down from heaven. If anyone shall have eaten of this bread, he will live to the age. And also, the bread that I will give for the life of the world is My flesh.”
52 Therefore the Jews were arguing with one another, saying, “How is this man able to give us His flesh to eat?”
53 Therefore Jesus said to them, “Truly, truly, I say to you, unless you shall have eaten the flesh of the Son of Man, and shall have drunk His blood, you do not have life in yourselves. 54 The one eating My flesh and drinking My blood has eternal life, and I will raise him up in the last day. 55 For My flesh is true food, and My blood is true drink.
56 The one eating My flesh and drinking My blood abides in Me, and I in him. 57 As the living Father sent Me and I live because of the Father, so also the one feeding on Me, he also will live because of Me. 58 This is the bread having come down from heaven, not as the fathers ate and died. The one eating this bread will live to the age.”


[the key issue all through is: faith or lack of faith - Jn6:29, 35, 40, 47, 64, and He symbolizes faith as appropriating/eating/drinking Himself - Jn6:35, 51, 53, 58; and then in JOHN 7:17 He emphasized the human response factor: "17 If anyone desires to do His will, he will know concerning the teaching, whether it is from God, or I speak from Myself."]


John 17:6-20 [blb] -

Prayer for the Disciples

6 I revealed Your name to the men whom You have given Me out of the world. [<--He did this personally] They were Yours, and to Me You gave them, and they have kept Your word. 7 Now they have known that all things You have given Me are of You. 8 For the words that You have given Me I have given them, and they received them, and knew truly that I came forth from You; and they believed that You sent Me.
9 I am praying concerning them. I do not pray concerning the world, but concerning those whom You have given Me, for they are Yours. 10 And all things of mine are Yours, and Yours Mine. And I have been glorified in them. 11 And I am no longer in the world, and yet they are themselves in the world, and I am coming to You.
Holy Father, keep them in Your name, which You have given Me, that they may be one as we are. 12 When I was with them, I was keeping them in Your name, which You have given Me. And I guarded them, and none of them has perished, except the son of destruction, that the Scripture might be fulfilled.
13 But now I am coming to You, and I speak these things in the world, so that they may have My joy fulfilled within them. 14 I have given them Your word, and the world hated them, because they are not of the world, even as I am not of the world.

15 I do not ask that You should take them out of the world, but that You should keep them from evil. 16 They are not of the world, as I am not of the world. 17 Sanctify them by the truth; Your word is truth. 18 As You sent Me into the world, I also sent them into the world; 19 and for them I sanctify Myself, that they also may be sanctified in truth.

Prayer for all Believers

20 But I do not ask for these only, but also for those believing in Me through their word, [...]


[so this is showing the distinction between "they have kept your word" / He had [aorist] shown the Father to them, personally (that is, to living disciples the Father had given Him, especially the Apostles), AND "those believing IN ME through their word"--Recall 1Jn4 "14 And we have seen and testify that the Father has sent the Son as Savior of the world." And 1Jn5, "10 The one believing in the Son of God has the testimony in himself; the one not believing God has made Him a liar, because he has not believed in the testimony that God has testified concerning His Son. 11 And this is the testimony: that God has given to us eternal life, and this life is in His Son. 12 The one having the Son has life; the one not having the Son of God does not have life."]

[end of quoting that post]

This is my take,

A study of Scripture on the subject of foreknowledge and predestination shows us that the way is predestined, not the individual. If that were not so, we would be saved by decree, not by faith. In His omniscience, God sees all things in advance. He predestined Christ as the way, and He predestined all who are "in Christ" to be conformed to the image of Christ. He predestined that we would not have to bring ourselves to glorification by practices of legalism and religious forms.

The Greek word here translated "foreknow" is used five times in the New Testament (Acts 26:5; Romans 8:29; 11:2; 1 Peter 1:20; 2 Peter 3:17). To "foreknow" does not imply prompting or the extraordinary working of God's elective will.

He foreknows by the ordinary process of His prescience (knowledge of events before they take place). No future event or thing could hide from God. The knowledge of those who would accept Christ could not be eliminated from the omniscience (all-knowledge) and omnipresence (everywhere present) of God.

To foreknow is a divine attribute of God. He sees the past and the future just as clearly as the present. Being infinite He is not in any way limited by time or space. That God knows what will take place does not mean He is responsible for all that happens. His foreknowledge declares that He is unmistakably certain about all that will take place, but He does not determine what takes place. He knows all wrongdoings of men as well as their good deeds.

The sequence which defines the purpose of God as given in verses 28-30 is as follows: The passage begins with a statement of certainty, "And we know," followed by a reason based on that certainty, "For." God's call is associated with His purpose.

The term predestination has often been misunderstood. John Calvin defined predestination by saying, "God has once for all determined, both whom he would admit to salvation, and whom he would condemn to destruction" (Institutes of the Christian Religion, 3:21:181). He went on to state that their perdition depends on the predestination of God.

Scripturally, predestination is never related to any person outside Christ. It always refers to those whom God foreknew would be in Christ (Romans 8:29, 30; Ephesians 1:5, 11). And the predestination is not to heaven per se, but "to be conformed to the image of his Son."

To those God gives their calling, justification, and glorification.

God's purpose will be complete in us when our glorification is complete. We shall be like Jesus, the firstborn of many. Already we are glorified spiritually—sanctification has begun. We are being changed "from glory to glory" (2 Corinthians 3:18). At the first resurrection (verse 23) our bodies will be glorified—sanctification completed.

Complete Biblical Library Commentary - The Complete Biblical Library – Romans-Corinthians.

2 Chronicles 19:7: “Now therefore, let the fear of the Lord be upon you; take care and do it, for there is no iniquity with the Lord our God, no partiality, nor taking of bribes.”

Job 34:19: “Yet He is not partial to princes, nor does He regard the rich more than the poor; for they are all the work of His hands.”

Romans 2:10-11: “But glory, honor, and peace to everyone who works what is good, to the Jew first and also to the Greek. For there is no partiality with God.”

Galatians 5:6: “For in Christ Jesus neither circumcision or uncircumcision avails anything, but faith working through love.”

1 Peter 1:17: “And if you call on the Father, who without partiality judges according to each one’s work, conduct yourselves throughout the time of your stay here in fear.”

Colossians 3:25
For he who does wrong will receive the consequences of the wrong which he has done, and that without partiality.

Acts 10:34
Opening his mouth, Peter said: "I most certainly understand now that God is not one to show partiality,


Ephesians 6:9
And masters, do the same things to them, and give up threatening, knowing that both their Master and yours is in heaven, and there is no partiality with Him.

Acts 15:9
and He made no distinction between us and them, cleansing their hearts by faith.

Romans 10:12
For there is no distinction between Jew and Greek; for the same Lord is Lord of all, abounding in riches for all who call on Him;

Verse after verse tells us who our God is... Impartial, loving, no respecter of persons. Who tells us what He expects from us...

But the wisdom from above is first pure, then peaceable, gentle, open to reason, full of mercy and good fruits, impartial and sincere.
James 3:17 ESV

I will not claim full understanding of the process of election or disclaim His work that shows choosing, such as in the cases of Pharaoh or Judas. But I believe that their ways, thoughts and hearts, were susceptible to the hardened, reprobate, heart condition. Just as satan himself was once a creature of good, until His pride caused His fall. Do we believe God created satan to cause us to fall, to have depraved minds, such that there is no hope for some, even with Christ's death and resurrection, because God chose to make no choice for some?

Wouldn't that make God who is love very partial, wouldn't that oppose who we believe Him to be, what He tells us He is, time and time again... impartial?

We can not add words like all elect men, to all men to find harmony in the scripture. We have to find harmony in the word as it is written.

I believe now that we are elected, chosen, once we give our lives to the One who saved us. I understand the sheep who hear his voice belong to Him, but that does not equate to me that God made it such that we are without choice, because God loves us enough to give us a choice.

He show His mercy and impartiality, with our choice given.