Is unconditional election biblical?

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Is unconditional election biblical?

  • Yes, unconditional election is biblical.

    Votes: 23 43.4%
  • No , unconditional election is not biblical.

    Votes: 27 50.9%
  • I don't know.

    Votes: 3 5.7%

  • Total voters
    53
Sep 1, 2019
64
27
18
Wyoming
The Cross secures the salvation of those God has given to the Son. Therefore, it is not a failure.

He DOES do what he wants. He does all his pleasure.

Claiming God does not do all He wants is SO WRONG.

Listen to yourself.
You are the one who should be listening to yourself. God never works outside of his holy nature, therefore He only does according to who He is and what He has revealed to be.
The Cross secures the salvation of those God has given to the Son. Therefore, it is not a failure.

He DOES do what he wants. He does all his pleasure.

Claiming God does not do all He wants is SO WRONG.

Listen to yourself.
Provide chapter and verse where the cross of Jesus Christ is limited only to those whom God has chosen to save, while the rest of His creation He discards as trash.
 

ForestGreenCook

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And Jesus proved in the Book of Matthew chapter 9 that faith in the spiritual power of God-Jesus would precede spiritual insight.
27 And as Jesus passed by from thence, two blind men followed him, crying out, and saying, Have mercy on us, thou son of David. 28 And when he was come into the house, the blind men came to him: and Jesus saith unto them, Believe ye that I am able to do this? They say unto him, Yea, Lord. 29 Then touched he their eyes, saying, According to your faith be it done unto you.
Wrong. If the blind man had not already been born again of the Spirit, he would not have called Jesus Lord, and would not have believed.(
Except what you do not understand or ignore is, Calvinism does not harmonize with the Gospel.

That is likely why most Christians who read of it being defended when it is converse to the Gospel are like, Whaaa? And when they hope to reach those who are being misled as Calvinists they are met with a stern sometimes rude offense so as to arrive at the decision, if it be God's will His Word will overcome.
God is Sovereign.
God is Omniscient. Of course.
God is Omnipresent. Yes, without exception.
God is Omnipotent. Yes, as He is God.
God is Omni-Genesis, the eternal source for all that exists, yes, that's the "job" description of God.
However, God is also wilful. And what can be overlooked is that God's will isn't a singular thing. In scripture it is triune, in a manner of speaking. 1Decretive, efficacious, will. *of something inanimate or abstract) successful in producing a desired or intended result; effective. Will that brings about whatever God decrees. 2. Dispositional will, that which is pleasing to God. 3. Preceptive will, the will exercised that intends order, rules, and or regulates behavior. (Preceptive defined basically) An example being the ten commandments.

1.) The Book of 1st Timothy chapter 2 verses 1 thru 6 I urge, then, first of all, that petitions, prayers, intercession and thanksgiving be made for all people— 2 for kings and all those in authority, that we may live peaceful and quiet lives in all godliness and holiness. 3 This is good, and pleases God our Savior, 4 who wants all people to be saved and to come to a knowledge of the truth. 5 For there is one God and one mediator between God and mankind, the man Christ Jesus, 6 who gave himself as a ransom for all people.

2.) The Book of Romans chapter 12 verses 1-3
Therefore, I urge you, brothers and sisters, in view of God’s mercy, to offer your bodies as a living sacrifice, holy and pleasing to God—this is your true and proper worship. 2 Do not conform to the pattern of this world, but be transformed by the renewing of your mind. Then you will be able to test and approve what God’s will is—his good, pleasing and perfect will.3 For by the grace given me I say to every one of you: Do not think of yourself more highly than you ought, but rather think of yourself with sober judgment, in accordance with the faith God has distributed to each of you.


3.) The Book of John chapter 1 verse 47 Jesus saw Nathanael coming to him, and saith of him, Behold, an Israelite indeed, in whom is no guile!


If all the world's events was pre-decided, all people's destiny preplanned by God, why would God inspire His word to all people? That they may learn and be moved toward His truth. Why does there exist scripture that informs us we have a choice. And those words that tell us to choose wisely.

Even when a passage tells us of God's will and in such a way as to say, God chose us in Him before the world was created, and His instruction tells us how to behave and comport ourselves that we be blameless, holy, before him.
What gets twisted and those ideologies that are then inserted into the words of God so as to comport with someone's ideology is , as example, when we are told God predestined those who are faithful in Christ for adoption as sons and daughters through the sacrifice of our Lord Jesus Christ.

God is Omniscient and His will exercises itself in the triune manner as described above, and being human who can truly encapsulate the mind of God using such terms as would hope to explain His powers? And yet, we try. We think because the Bible says this and that about God that that is what there is and all there is. But that's not true. God's thoughts are not as ours, thank God.

Just because the scripture tells us God predestined those who would come to Him, He who was the Son, does not mean God made me to come to Him, my neighbor not to, the neighbor across the field to turn from God, etc... What the scripture tells us , in the scope of Omniscience, is God opened His grace to the world that all might be saved. And doing this He sacrificed Himself for the world's sins.
In that manner God predestined those who would be saved because God began that process with the irrevocable gift of His grace to the world. And then He begat Jesus, Yeshua, upon Mary that she bear the Savior of all people, specially those that believe, to life.
God did this so as to save the world. God preplanned Salvation for the world. All those verses that say He predetermined whom would come to Salvation aren't saying He played a celestial game like unto Duck-Duck-Go. You go to Heaven, nope you go into damnation, you go to Heaven, and so forth.

It means God's Omniscience and Omnipotence are part of His Saving Grace that He delivered to the world. And all that pertains to Salvation is part of His plan to save the worlds people from their sins. He planned that. That whosoever believeth in that, in Jesus, the Savior, the Message of that plan, shall not perish! But shall have immortal life.

God predetermined who would be saved means God's Salvation plan was to save the world's people from their sins. He graced this world with the gift of Salvation for all those for whom it would come to resonate as truth, and be saved.

The predetermination was the plan, the process, and the result of that plan coming to fruition when people would choose Christ because God's salvation resonates within them, because the message awakens the Godly spark within them, that which is within all God made of Himself.
The Beginning
(Genesis 1:1-2)
John 1:1In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. 2He was with God in the beginning. 3Through Him all things were made, and without Him nothing was made that has been made. 4In Him was life, and that life was the light of men. 5The Light shines in the darkness, and the darkness has not overcome it.

John 4:24 "God is spirit, and those who worship him must worship in spirit and truth.”

It wasn't to say God predetermined whom He would save and whom He would damn and in the end we'll all find out which one we are. Even if we only now think we have faith ourselves, it doesn't matter until we learn what God pre-determined and for whom, by name.

That's a really long response, rebuttal, however, I am weary of that argument that makes out that a doctrine such as was invented by Calvin interpolating scriptures to fit his ideal deity is sacrosanct. I realize the devout will not be moved to change. Perhaps it is a a feeling of assurance that they are what John imagined to define as his version of Elect. Perhaps it is fear of Hell should one deviate from what they've been taught or held as true for so long.
However, God gave us intellect that we may be thoughtful and discretionary and conscious as His creation. And I will not accept a fabricated deity such as that which John imagined to exist and call sacred, when what John describes as that which he believed did exist is that which one would pray salvation from!

A god that creates a race, the human race, in his image and likeness after he predetermines their fall from his grace so as to premeditate those he alone would save by his works, not their conscious awakening to His Spirit, so as to bring some home to him and send those others straight to the Hell he created to receive for his adversary and his angels and then opened to receive his chosen men and women as well.
No. That type of demigod is that which the world needs saving from.
And by God, that is the purpose, inspiration, and scope of this thread.

THINK!
And you won't let yourself be led to be a Calvinist!
Yes, that's a bit of passion there. But you know what? So to was Jesus' death on the cross.
Hallelujah! Thank you Father! Thank you for thinking us worthy. Amen.
Your thoughts are so scattered they do not deserve an answer.
 

Whispered

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Wrong. If the blind man had not already been born again of the Spirit, he would not have called Jesus Lord, and would not have believed.
That's quite a stretch you have going there. Not in the scripture of the Book of Matthew 9 but quite a stretch. One is warned not to add to the prophecy in John's Book of Revelation that Jesus inspired unto him to write. I would imagine one should not take license to do that with any of God's words.


Your thoughts are so scattered they do not deserve an answer.
No, they're not scattered in the least. Those who are blind by false leading are like unto blind men who have lost their way and now fumble in the dark. Feeling just an elephants trunk and thinking that is indeed the sum total of the pachyderm itself.
I do appreciate that you have no answer. I am not surprised sadly that in lieu of just admitting that you resort to contemptuous remarks. However, that is alright because it shows me who you are as you claim God has changed what was the totally depraved immoral person into who you are now.
You may wish to ponder that. Meditate, pray on it. How you respond to people as you defend your beliefs tells people more than what your written words can.
 

Whispered

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Eph 2 says that a spiritually dead person cannot believe until he is regenerated, quickened to a new life.
The Book of James chapter 1 would disagree.
The implanted logos in verse 21( implanted Greek:emphytos, word Greek:logos), is not the Unconditional Election having taken root, but rather is the Word that is God alive within his created. Book of Colossians chapter 1 and verse 16 for in him were all things created, in the heavens and upon the earth, things visible and things invisible, whether thrones or dominions or principalities or powers; all things have been created through him, and unto him;


funny

I feel no obligation whatsoever

God allows people to go down the wrong path all the time

as you have done :)
Response:
That would be your personal opinion, and not backed up by scripture.
The Book of John chapter 8
21 He said therefore again unto them, I go away, and ye shall seek me, and shall die in your sin: whither I go, ye cannot come. 22 The Jews therefore said, Will he kill himself, that he saith, Whither I go, ye cannot come? 23 And he said unto them, Ye are from beneath; I am from above: ye are of this world; I am not of this world. 24 I said therefore unto you, that ye shall die in your sins: for except ye believe that I am he, ye shall die in your sins.

The Book of Matthew 7
13 Enter ye in by the narrow gate: for wide [a]is the gate, and broad is the way, that leadeth to destruction, and many are they that enter in thereby. 14 [b]For narrow is the gate, and straitened the way, that leadeth unto life, and few are they that find it.
...24 Every one therefore that heareth these words of mine, and doeth them, shall be likened unto a wise man, who built his house upon the rock:
 

limmuwd

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Thankfully, we have the Scripture to turn to; especially when strange doctrines appear, such as the one presented in this thread.

"Simon Peter, a bondservant and apostle of Jesus Christ,
To those who have obtained like precious faith with us by the righteousness of our God and Savior Jesus Christ:
2 Grace and peace be multiplied to you in the knowledge of God and of Jesus our Lord, 3 as His divine power has given to us all things that pertain to life and godliness, through the knowledge of Him who called us by glory and virtue, 4 by which have been given to us exceedingly great and precious promises, that through these you may be partakers of the divine nature, having escaped the corruption that is in the world through lust.

5 But also for this very reason, giving all diligence, add to your faith virtue, to virtue knowledge, 6 to knowledge self-control, to self-control perseverance, to perseverance godliness, 7 to godliness brotherly kindness, and to brotherly kindness love. 8 For if these things are yours and abound, you will be neither barren nor unfruitful in the knowledge of our Lord Jesus Christ. 9 For he who lacks these things is shortsighted, even to blindness, and has forgotten that he was cleansed from his old sins.

10 Therefore, brethren, be even more diligent to make your call and election sure, for if you do these things you will never stumble; 11 for so an entrance will be supplied to you abundantly into the everlasting kingdom of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ."
- 2Pet 1:1-11

Oh, there is indeed an "elect" of God, destined to become "One with Christ as He is One with the Father (John 17).
But to say that God has no conditions on this calling is plain foolishness and arrogance, which the Bible condemns.

I'm not into just listing a bunch of verses to prove a point, but seriously, one could easily quote almost the entire Bible, New Testament and Old to refute such a "belief" that God has bound Himself unconditionally to an "elect" that, regardless of what they do or don't do in this life are still destined to inherit the promises of God.

Yes, there is an "elect" of God.
No, they will not attain, and another will take their place, if they do not "walk worthy" and "overcome."

It's just that simple.
To Him Who Overcomes
 
7

7seasrekeyed

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Therefore, one cannot truly believe/trust the gospel. It takes accountability out of the equation.

right

and the flip side is that those who are sent to hell, according to Calvinists, are nothing more than another log on the fire

Calvinism creates a god that does not equate with God the Father

He becomes more like god who creates favorites for no reason any of us can fathom
 

ForestGreenCook

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The Book of James chapter 1 would disagree.
The implanted logos in verse 21( implanted Greek:emphytos, word Greek:logos), is not the Unconditional Election having taken root, but rather is the Word that is God alive within his created. Book of Colossians chapter 1 and verse 16 for in him were all things created, in the heavens and upon the earth, things visible and things invisible, whether thrones or dominions or principalities or powers; all things have been created through him, and unto him;



Response: The Book of John chapter 8
21 He said therefore again unto them, I go away, and ye shall seek me, and shall die in your sin: whither I go, ye cannot come. 22 The Jews therefore said, Will he kill himself, that he saith, Whither I go, ye cannot come? 23 And he said unto them, Ye are from beneath; I am from above: ye are of this world; I am not of this world. 24 I said therefore unto you, that ye shall die in your sins: for except ye believe that I am he, ye shall die in your sins.

The Book of Matthew 7
13 Enter ye in by the narrow gate: for wide [a]is the gate, and broad is the way, that leadeth to destruction, and many are they that enter in thereby. 14 [b]For narrow is the gate, and straitened the way, that leadeth unto life, and few are they that find it.
...24 Every one therefore that heareth these words of mine, and doeth them, shall be likened unto a wise man, who built his house upon the rock:
You fail to understand that the inspired scriptures are not written to the natural man that cannot discern the things of the Spirit, but are written to God' elect, who have been regenerated and have been given a new heart that is able to discern the things of the Spirit. This is why you try to give liberty of understanding spiritual things to the unregenerated man. As long as you hold to that position, there is no advantage in conversing with you.
 

ForestGreenCook

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right

and the flip side is that those who are sent to hell, according to Calvinists, are nothing more than another log on the fire

Calvinism creates a god that does not equate with God the Father

He becomes more like god who creates favorites for no reason any of us can fathom
That is your problem. You try to elevate your reasoning powers to be equal to God's reasoning powers. The scriptures say that God's reasoning ways are higher than our reasoning ways. and we are not to say "What doest thou" to God (Dan 4:35).
 

notuptome

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That is your problem. You try to elevate your reasoning powers to be equal to God's reasoning powers. The scriptures say that God's reasoning ways are higher than our reasoning ways. and we are not to say "What doest thou" to God (Dan 4:35).
I would be concerned that it will ultimately be your problem. You do not present a biblical knowledge of salvation. You reason with the natural mind that you accuse everybody else of doing.

Did Adam choose to sin or did God compel Adam to sin?

For the cause of Christ
Roger
 

ForestGreenCook

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Thankfully, we have the Scripture to turn to; especially when strange doctrines appear, such as the one presented in this thread.

"Simon Peter, a bondservant and apostle of Jesus Christ,
To those who have obtained like precious faith with us by the righteousness of our God and Savior Jesus Christ:
2 Grace and peace be multiplied to you in the knowledge of God and of Jesus our Lord, 3 as His divine power has given to us all things that pertain to life and godliness, through the knowledge of Him who called us by glory and virtue, 4 by which have been given to us exceedingly great and precious promises, that through these you may be partakers of the divine nature, having escaped the corruption that is in the world through lust.


5 But also for this very reason, giving all diligence, add to your faith virtue, to virtue knowledge, 6 to knowledge self-control, to self-control perseverance, to perseverance godliness, 7 to godliness brotherly kindness, and to brotherly kindness love. 8 For if these things are yours and abound, you will be neither barren nor unfruitful in the knowledge of our Lord Jesus Christ. 9 For he who lacks these things is shortsighted, even to blindness, and has forgotten that he was cleansed from his old sins.
10 Therefore, brethren, be even more diligent to make your call and election sure, for if you do these things you will never stumble; 11 for so an entrance will be supplied to you abundantly into the everlasting kingdom of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ."
- 2Pet 1:1-11

Oh, there is indeed an "elect" of God, destined to become "One with Christ as He is One with the Father (John 17).
But to say that God has no conditions on this calling is plain foolishness and arrogance, which the Bible condemns.

I'm not into just listing a bunch of verses to prove a point, but seriously, one could easily quote almost the entire Bible, New Testament and Old to refute such a "belief" that God has bound Himself unconditionally to an "elect" that, regardless of what they do or don't do in this life are still destined to inherit the promises of God.

Yes, there is an "elect" of God.
No, they will not attain, and another will take their place, if they do not "walk worthy" and "overcome."

It's just that simple.
To Him Who Overcomes
A lot of the scriptures are written as a mystery to some, but you fail to understand John 6:38 which is written in plain and simple language that Jesus did not die for all mankind, but just for those that his Father gave him and that none would be lost, but he would raise them up at the last day. How could any of those he died for "not attain" if Jesus said that none of them would be lost? You must be interpreting some scriptures wrong because your interpretation does not harmonize with all scriptures.
 

ForestGreenCook

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I would be concerned that it will ultimately be your problem. You do not present a biblical knowledge of salvation. You reason with the natural mind that you accuse everybody else of doing.

Did Adam choose to sin or did God compel Adam to sin?

For the cause of Christ
Roger
As closely as you seem to follow my posts, you must have overlooked the fact that I believe the scriptures to teach that God did, indeed, give man the freedom to choose how he wants to live his life here on earth, but that man has no choice in his eternal destination, that is strictly by God's choice and not man's. All scriptures must harmonize.
 

John146

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A lot of the scriptures are written as a mystery to some, but you fail to understand John 6:38 which is written in plain and simple language that Jesus did not die for all mankind, but just for those that his Father gave him and that none would be lost, but he would raise them up at the last day. How could any of those he died for "not attain" if Jesus said that none of them would be lost? You must be interpreting some scriptures wrong because your interpretation does not harmonize with all scriptures.
Who are those that the Father has given? You fail to read on:

39 And this is the Father's will which hath sent me, that of all which he hath given me I should lose nothing, but should raise it up again at the last day.

40 And this is the will of him that sent me, that every one which seeth the Son, and believeth on him, may have everlasting life: and I will raise him up at the last day.

Those that are His are those that believeth on Him. The believing comes first, then they become His. That’s the Father’s plan from the beginning.
 

limmuwd

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A lot of the scriptures are written as a mystery to some, but you fail to understand John 6:38 which is written in plain and simple language that Jesus did not die for all mankind, but just for those that his Father gave him and that none would be lost, but he would raise them up at the last day. How could any of those he died for "not attain" if Jesus said that none of them would be lost? You must be interpreting some scriptures wrong because your interpretation does not harmonize with all scriptures.
Amen.
As God has been unveiling His Truth to me (among others) through His Word over the past couple decades now, He has commissioned me to teach the whole of His Word concerning the Kingdom and the Priesthood. (and no, I am not Mormon in the least.)

Indeed there is an Elect. But even, and especially these, must prove themselves Worthy if they are to enter into "His rest" and receive the promises in Rev 2 & 3, "to those who overcome."

But, that being said, and True... Jesus indeed DID die for ALL mankind. May our religious bent blind our eyes to the very Word of God in the Scripture -

"My little children, these things I write to you, so that you may not sin. And if anyone sins, we have an Advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous. 2 And He Himself is the propitiation for our sins, and not for ours only but also for the whole world.
3 Now by this we know that we know Him, if we keep His commandments."
- 1John 2:1-3

We see from the Apostles letter, that Jesus indeed died for ALL. Not that all will receive Him, or even that all are called, but He did die for all. We must adhere to ALL the Word of God.

Oh, yes, there are mysteries abound in the Scripture; but as we are moving closer to "Tabernacles", the veil is being lifted to those with eyes to see and ears to hear.

I teach much concerning the Elect: the "royal priesthood" of God that will inherit the nations in Eternity, to minister to them, AS Christ, healing and Life. The understanding of "Inheritance" has been largely lost or misunderstood in most assemblies today.

Peace & Blessings as you walk with Jesus.
 

notuptome

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As closely as you seem to follow my posts, you must have overlooked the fact that I believe the scriptures to teach that God did, indeed, give man the freedom to choose how he wants to live his life here on earth, but that man has no choice in his eternal destination, that is strictly by God's choice and not man's. All scriptures must harmonize.
There is little doubt that your philosophy is not biblical. You cannot eve harmonize your own thoughts and must take great pains to avoid the obvious truths of the scriptures.

For the cause of Christ
Roger
 

ForestGreenCook

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What is your interpretation of John 6:38 that will harmonize with the scriptures that state he died for all mankind?
 

notuptome

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What is your interpretation of John 6:38 that will harmonize with the scriptures that state he died for all mankind?
Read John 1:9-14. John 6:38 in context has nothing to say in support of Jesus only dying those you see as elect. Post facto elect.

For the cause of Christ
Roger
 

ForestGreenCook

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Who are those that the Father has given? You fail to read on:

39 And this is the Father's will which hath sent me, that of all which he hath given me I should lose nothing, but should raise it up again at the last day.

40 And this is the will of him that sent me, that every one which seeth the Son, and believeth on him, may have everlasting life: and I will raise him up at the last day.

Those that are His are those that believeth on Him. The believing comes first, then they become His. That’s the Father’s plan from the beginning.
Does not harmonize with other scriptures; The natural man (1 Cor 2:14) cannot discern (believe) in the things of the Spirit, until he has been born again and given a new heart that is able to discern the things of the Spirit. (Eph 2) the natural man is "yet dead"(spiritually) when God regenerates him to be spiritually alive. The same principle applies in John 3:16; World of "believers", not "will believe".
 

Whispered

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right

and the flip side is that those who are sent to hell, according to Calvinists, are nothing more than another log on the fire

Calvinism creates a god that does not equate with God the Father

He becomes more like god who creates favorites for no reason any of us can fathom
True.
Just the import of "Total Depravity" in the TULIP formula is enough to know Calvin was one odd duck. To imagine that is what people were created first to be by God.
Total Depravity = All men have inherited the sin of Adam through their parents and are morally unable to choose to follow God and be saved because of their own depraved, sinful nature which extends to every part of their personality.

Wouldn't you agree that people who you've met that are kind hearted, generous, compassionate, loving, are examples that definition of people is greatly flawed?
What the devout to Calvin's idea of God don't appear to get, because there are still Calvinists in the world hoping to lead people to believe John's ideas, is that the TULIP that coincides with Calvinism describes the qualities of a Devil. Not a benevolent Father.
 
7

7seasrekeyed

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That is your problem. You try to elevate your reasoning powers to be equal to God's reasoning powers. The scriptures say that God's reasoning ways are higher than our reasoning ways. and we are not to say "What doest thou" to God (Dan 4:35).
your assessement of my spiritual life is based on your own very strange renderings and you do not have a clue what I think since you cannot even decipher what I write

God is not on your side

WE choose

CHOOSE THIS DAY WHOM YOU WILL FOLLOW does not equate with 'oh gee I had no choice and could not resist the Holy Spirit'

how does a person grieve the Spirit of God if He cannot be resisted?

don't you know that a person can renew their mind according to the word of God and function with understanding that God grants?

if that were not so, the entire human race would have killed each other a long long time ago

you are just one more person who has elevated themself to what they think is a superior position and you hide behind a fake god while you do it

it seems you do not actually know the One you speak about because you have very badly misrepresented His words
 
7

7seasrekeyed

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You fail to understand that the inspired scriptures are not written to the natural man that cannot discern the things of the Spirit, but are written to God' elect, who have been regenerated and have been given a new heart that is able to discern the things of the Spirit. This is why you try to give liberty of understanding spiritual things to the unregenerated man. As long as you hold to that position, there is no advantage in conversing with you.

actually, you cannot converse with someone who actually knows the truth

it is above your understanding

ever hear of santification? your heart is still more than capable of sinning