3 Tactics Calvinists Use Against Non-Calvinists
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I just a moment ago, explained this same question that you ask me on the "Is unconditional election biblical?" thread. I will answer you again on this thread. I have never denied that God has given man a free choice to live his life here on earth as he chooses, but his eternal destination is strictly God's choice and not man's.
So the final product of your philosophy is that you can live any way you wish and if you are elect you are guaranteed eternity in heaven.
Not even close to what Jesus taught and not ever remotely biblical.
You simply cannot deal with the truth that Adam chose to sin and a sinner today must choose Christ. God makes it possible by grace and no man can claim credit for what Christ has done.
For the cause of Christ
Roger
Not even close to what Jesus taught and not ever remotely biblical.
You simply cannot deal with the truth that Adam chose to sin and a sinner today must choose Christ. God makes it possible by grace and no man can claim credit for what Christ has done.
For the cause of Christ
Roger
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That first part of your statement, the first sentence, is what Calvinism teaches. It is the "P" in TULIP.
Perseverance of the Saints = Since God is sovereign and His will cannot be frustrated by humans or anything else, those whom God has called into communion with Himself will continue in faith until the end. They cannot be eternally lost.
Keeping in mind that the terms, called into communion, and "continue in faith", there are not attributes arrived at by man's choice but by God's doing alone. That is the "I" in TULIP.
Irresistible Grace = God’s saving grace is applied to those whom He has determined to save (the elect), overcoming their resistance to the call of the Gospel, bringing them to a saving faith. This means that when God sovereignly purposes to save someone, that individual certainly will be saved (even against his will if necessary). This purposeful influence of God’s Holy Spirit, Who creates faith within the individual, cannot be resisted.
Perseverance of the Saints = Since God is sovereign and His will cannot be frustrated by humans or anything else, those whom God has called into communion with Himself will continue in faith until the end. They cannot be eternally lost.
Keeping in mind that the terms, called into communion, and "continue in faith", there are not attributes arrived at by man's choice but by God's doing alone. That is the "I" in TULIP.
Irresistible Grace = God’s saving grace is applied to those whom He has determined to save (the elect), overcoming their resistance to the call of the Gospel, bringing them to a saving faith. This means that when God sovereignly purposes to save someone, that individual certainly will be saved (even against his will if necessary). This purposeful influence of God’s Holy Spirit, Who creates faith within the individual, cannot be resisted.
Sure, I agree Paul counted his earlier years as dung, especially in light of his persecution of the church, including approving of the murder of Stephen. But, he never said his studying, knowledge of the Bible and languages was "dung!" In fact, he listed completely different things, mainly The things he did against the church as worthless! And his fine pedigree! Those were worthless! Read it below.
"If someone else thinks they have reasons to put confidence in the flesh, I have more: 5 circumcised on the eighth day, of the people of Israel, of the tribe of Benjamin, a Hebrew of Hebrews; in regard to the law, a Pharisee; 6 as for zeal, persecuting the church; as for righteousness based on the law, faultless.
7 But whatever were gains to me I now consider loss for the sake of Christ. 8 What is more, I consider everything a loss because of the surpassing worth of knowing Christ Jesus my Lord, for whose sake I have lost all things. I consider them garbage, that I may gain Christ 9 and be found in him, not having a righteousness of my own that comes from the law, but that which is through faith in Christ—the righteousness that comes from God on the basis of faith. 10 I want to know Christ—yes, to know the power of his resurrection and participation in his sufferings, becoming like him in his death, 11 and so, somehow, attaining to the resurrection from the dead." Phil 3:4-11
In other words, all of his human attempts at righteousness, even being faultless before the law -those things were garbage! There is no suggestion that Paul's learning was of no use.
And God certainly did not account those years as wasted. Paul was chosen partly because of his training, and then the Holy Spirit gifted him with much more, especially spiritual understanding.
Paul was the ideal person to take the gospel to the Gentiles. He was even a Roman citizen by birth, which got him out of a tight corner. God chose Paul because he didn't have to teach him languages, rhetoric or hermeneutics! Or many other valuable scholarly things. Paul was the full package. He was God's choice, regardless of whether Paul called himself the "chief" of all sinners. Certainly counting his former life as "dung" is another sign of Paul's ultimate humility, not that his gifts, and learning weren't an important part of his ministry.
The early church valued teaching and training. It was part of the rabbinic tradition. Even women were allowed to learn in the NT! To say scholarship is not important really throws out much of the Old and New Testaments! What was Paul's purpose? Why was he chosen to preach the gospel, as well as teaching doctrine, including obedience to God.
Paul was chosen because he was a trained scholar, even if he realized his abilities were not as important as the leading of the Holy Spirit. Paul's writing ability led him to write most of the NT epistles. His training in speaking enabled him to travel and share the gospel with Jews and Gentiles alike! And those essential items of ministry were learned the old fashioned way.
And again, none of us are Paul! God had Paul write many things, so we can read it in the Bible. To compare yourself to Paul and say, "I only need the HS!" Which Paul even never said, is the height of arrogance.
We won't even get into folks like you who declare the HS taught you, when your theology is so far out, so wrong, it is beyond left field. When you come up with some new theories, 2000 years after Paul wrote basic theology in the words of the Bible, is to say the previous history of Christianity has always been wrong. The fact is, we need to all be humble students, to understand what has gone before, and our part in participating in God's work on the earth, as we await the return of Christ. (once!)
Even your totally misusing Phil 3:8 is yet another sign of your confusion and inability to correctly interpret the Bible. Context counts!! Don't just make up stuff, and then try to present it as truth! You're another person who could really benefit from a course in hermeneutics, and learning how to correctly divide the Word of God!
"If someone else thinks they have reasons to put confidence in the flesh, I have more: 5 circumcised on the eighth day, of the people of Israel, of the tribe of Benjamin, a Hebrew of Hebrews; in regard to the law, a Pharisee; 6 as for zeal, persecuting the church; as for righteousness based on the law, faultless.
7 But whatever were gains to me I now consider loss for the sake of Christ. 8 What is more, I consider everything a loss because of the surpassing worth of knowing Christ Jesus my Lord, for whose sake I have lost all things. I consider them garbage, that I may gain Christ 9 and be found in him, not having a righteousness of my own that comes from the law, but that which is through faith in Christ—the righteousness that comes from God on the basis of faith. 10 I want to know Christ—yes, to know the power of his resurrection and participation in his sufferings, becoming like him in his death, 11 and so, somehow, attaining to the resurrection from the dead." Phil 3:4-11
In other words, all of his human attempts at righteousness, even being faultless before the law -those things were garbage! There is no suggestion that Paul's learning was of no use.
And God certainly did not account those years as wasted. Paul was chosen partly because of his training, and then the Holy Spirit gifted him with much more, especially spiritual understanding.
Paul was the ideal person to take the gospel to the Gentiles. He was even a Roman citizen by birth, which got him out of a tight corner. God chose Paul because he didn't have to teach him languages, rhetoric or hermeneutics! Or many other valuable scholarly things. Paul was the full package. He was God's choice, regardless of whether Paul called himself the "chief" of all sinners. Certainly counting his former life as "dung" is another sign of Paul's ultimate humility, not that his gifts, and learning weren't an important part of his ministry.
The early church valued teaching and training. It was part of the rabbinic tradition. Even women were allowed to learn in the NT! To say scholarship is not important really throws out much of the Old and New Testaments! What was Paul's purpose? Why was he chosen to preach the gospel, as well as teaching doctrine, including obedience to God.
Paul was chosen because he was a trained scholar, even if he realized his abilities were not as important as the leading of the Holy Spirit. Paul's writing ability led him to write most of the NT epistles. His training in speaking enabled him to travel and share the gospel with Jews and Gentiles alike! And those essential items of ministry were learned the old fashioned way.
And again, none of us are Paul! God had Paul write many things, so we can read it in the Bible. To compare yourself to Paul and say, "I only need the HS!" Which Paul even never said, is the height of arrogance.
We won't even get into folks like you who declare the HS taught you, when your theology is so far out, so wrong, it is beyond left field. When you come up with some new theories, 2000 years after Paul wrote basic theology in the words of the Bible, is to say the previous history of Christianity has always been wrong. The fact is, we need to all be humble students, to understand what has gone before, and our part in participating in God's work on the earth, as we await the return of Christ. (once!)
Even your totally misusing Phil 3:8 is yet another sign of your confusion and inability to correctly interpret the Bible. Context counts!! Don't just make up stuff, and then try to present it as truth! You're another person who could really benefit from a course in hermeneutics, and learning how to correctly divide the Word of God!
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Your tried and tested canard. You cannot harmonize scripture in context with scripture so you accuse others of not being able to harmonize scripture. You operate in the wisdom of a natural mind attempting to discern spiritual truth. The Holy Spirit bring conviction of sin, righteousness and judgment as revealed in the word of God. The Holy Spirit does not regenerate a man until the man asks Christ to save him.
For the cause of Christ
Roger
For the cause of Christ
Roger
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In past posts I've read FGC believes he is one of the elect.
With that in mind, I believe their post #402 rebuts that prior affirmation on their part and especially as appears in the bold underlined italicized part of their post, pasted below.
#402
"I just a moment ago, explained this same question that you ask me on the "Is unconditional election biblical?" thread. I will answer you again on this thread. I have never denied that God has given man a free choice to live his life here on earth as he chooses, but his eternal destination is strictly God's choice and not man's."
With that in mind, I believe their post #402 rebuts that prior affirmation on their part and especially as appears in the bold underlined italicized part of their post, pasted below.
#402
"I just a moment ago, explained this same question that you ask me on the "Is unconditional election biblical?" thread. I will answer you again on this thread. I have never denied that God has given man a free choice to live his life here on earth as he chooses, but his eternal destination is strictly God's choice and not man's."
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I remember when I was trying to be sinlessly perfect before the Lord. It was my understanding that was the requirement of the Lord Jesus in order to be one of His. See Matt 5:48
Well I got to Romans 9 and I was thinking that since I am not able to be sinlessly perfect I must be a vessel that was made for destruction.
So I decided at that time that I would be the best vessel that was built for destruction. I would be better than all the other ones. So I continued to try and be Perfect as God is Perfect.
I still wasn't able to be Perfect. In my mind I couldn't even be a very good vessel unto destruction. Pretty sad.
So I started asking the Lord Jesus for His Help. My last resort...lol
Things started to turn around after that. And I was finally led to understand that a vessel built for destruction probably isn't going to continue to try and be Perfect Before God. A vessel built for destruction probably would have deposited that bible in the nearest trash and wouldn't have tried to do the things that the Lord tells His People to do.
I didn't know what I was doing. But I did it perfectly, in an imperfect manner, in order to be saved. There is only one explanation for me. And that is I was led, and drawn, the whole way. I know others have different views. But if you read the bible and compare your own Salvation experience(s) I can't understand how you could come to any other conclusion than God Elects and Draws us to Christ and it is not our choices and understanding and obedience that cause Him to Save us. Although it seems like it is before we come to Christ and are shown what True Salvation is.
Well I got to Romans 9 and I was thinking that since I am not able to be sinlessly perfect I must be a vessel that was made for destruction.
So I decided at that time that I would be the best vessel that was built for destruction. I would be better than all the other ones. So I continued to try and be Perfect as God is Perfect.
I still wasn't able to be Perfect. In my mind I couldn't even be a very good vessel unto destruction. Pretty sad.
So I started asking the Lord Jesus for His Help. My last resort...lol
Things started to turn around after that. And I was finally led to understand that a vessel built for destruction probably isn't going to continue to try and be Perfect Before God. A vessel built for destruction probably would have deposited that bible in the nearest trash and wouldn't have tried to do the things that the Lord tells His People to do.
I didn't know what I was doing. But I did it perfectly, in an imperfect manner, in order to be saved. There is only one explanation for me. And that is I was led, and drawn, the whole way. I know others have different views. But if you read the bible and compare your own Salvation experience(s) I can't understand how you could come to any other conclusion than God Elects and Draws us to Christ and it is not our choices and understanding and obedience that cause Him to Save us. Although it seems like it is before we come to Christ and are shown what True Salvation is.
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Matthew 6:33
But seek first the kingdom of God and his righteousness, and all these things will be added to you.
But seek first the kingdom of God and his righteousness, and all these things will be added to you.
Proverbs 8:17
I love those who love me, and those who seek me diligently find me.
I love those who love me, and those who seek me diligently find me.
Deuteronomy 4:29
But from there you will seek the Lord your God and you will find him, if you search after him with all your heart and with all your soul.
Lamentations 3:25
The Lord is good to those who wait for him, to the soul who seeks him.
James 4:8 But from there you will seek the Lord your God and you will find him, if you search after him with all your heart and with all your soul.
Lamentations 3:25
The Lord is good to those who wait for him, to the soul who seeks him.
Draw near to God, and he will draw near to you. Cleanse your hands, you sinners, and purify your hearts, you double-minded.
Seeking God
Romans 3:10-19
10 As it is written, There is none righteous, no, not one:
11 There is none that understandeth, there is none that seeketh after God.
12 They are all gone out of the way, they are together become unprofitable; there is none that doeth good, no, not one.
13 Their throat is an open sepulchre; with their tongues they have used deceit; the poison of asps is under their lips:
14 Whose mouth is full of cursing and bitterness:
15 Their feet are swift to shed blood:
16 Destruction and misery are in their ways:
17 And the way of peace have they not known:
18 There is no fear of God before their eyes.
19 Now we know that what things soever the law saith, it saith to them who are under the law: that every mouth may be stopped, and all the world may become guilty before God.
10 As it is written, There is none righteous, no, not one:
11 There is none that understandeth, there is none that seeketh after God.
12 They are all gone out of the way, they are together become unprofitable; there is none that doeth good, no, not one.
13 Their throat is an open sepulchre; with their tongues they have used deceit; the poison of asps is under their lips:
14 Whose mouth is full of cursing and bitterness:
15 Their feet are swift to shed blood:
16 Destruction and misery are in their ways:
17 And the way of peace have they not known:
18 There is no fear of God before their eyes.
19 Now we know that what things soever the law saith, it saith to them who are under the law: that every mouth may be stopped, and all the world may become guilty before God.
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Pretty harsh remarks you make about me, but I am use to it. The doctrine that I defend has never been popular with the majority of the population, as is documented when Jesus taught it. I have not misused Phil 3:8, but if you want to falsely uphold your thinking that a higher education and being instructed by other educated men's false interpretations of the scriptures will teach you what the truth is of the doctrine that Jesus taught, it is not up to me to unteach you. Jer 9:21, Thus saith the Lord, Let not the wise man glory in his wisdom, neither let the mighty man glory in his might, let not the rich man glory in his riches. Why would Jesus say "I thank thee Father that thou hast hid these things from the wise and prudent and delivered them unto babes. 1 Cor 1:19-20, For it is written, I will destroy the wisdom of the wise, and will bring to nothing the understanding of the prudent. Where is the wise? Where is the scribe? Where is the disputer of this world? Hath not God made foolish the wisdom of this world? 1 Cor 1:26-27, For ye see your calling, brethren, how that not many wise men after the flesh, nor many mighty, nor many noble, are called, But God hath chosen the foolish things of the world to confound the wise, and God hath chosen the weak things of the world to confound the things which are mighty, and base things of the world, and things which are despised, hath God chosen, yea, and things which are not, to bring to naught things that are, that no flesh should glory in his presence.
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Your thoughts do not make sense to me. You admit that the natural man cannot discern the things of the Spirit, then you turn around and say that the Holy Spirit brings him the conviction of his sin (of breaking God's law) when he cannot discern anything about a spiritual law. The natural man will not repent of a spiritual law that he cannot discern. These things you say happens to the natural man cannot happen until he is born again of the Holy Spirit.
