Mystery Babylon

You make many broad assumptions based on "Jesus told John "must take place later".
Yes the overall prophesies in Revelation are of the future, but this doesn't mean that every single verse in Revelation speak only of future events.

For example, it is clear that the events described in Rev 12: 7-9 are past events that occurred before John was born and wrote Revelation.

7- And there was war in heaven: Michael and his angels fought against the dragon; and the dragon fought and his angels,

8 And prevailed not; neither was their place found any more in heaven.

9 And the great dragon was cast out, that old serpent, called the Devil, and Satan, which deceiveth the whole world: he was cast out into the earth, and his angels were cast out with him.

These are past events that happened BEFORE John was born and wrote Revelation.

Therefore, it must be considered that the event of the "Woman gave birth to a male child" also occured in the past before John was born and wrote Revelation.
You even say that the Woman is the Nation of Israel, but you automatically assume she is Future Israel, not Past Israel.

Why can't the Woman in Rev 12 be Past Israel? Have you ever considered this?

I understand this is a very standard view among evangelicals today.

This is what I am seeing:

Christ 1st coming<-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------->Christ 2nd Coming
_____________________ This entire time the Church is present & there's Great Tribulation

Hi, the last week of years is a prophecy about Daniel’s people, Israel, and Daniel’s city, Jerusalem. If you look at chapters 1-5 of Isaiah you will see the apostate Israel when the Lord has come in His Glory for all to see and that is The Day of the Lord. The Scriptures are pretty clear who she is in those last days. Hope this helps. God bless

True there is problems, but not the GREAT tribulation which is the worst time ever to be or has been.

Good day Neb,

In response to your response above, do you believe in what the word of God says? If you do, then there is no reason for not believing in the 1000 year reign of Christ, otherwise He would be lying when He says that Satan will be bound in the Abyss for a thousand years and the great tribulation saints will rule with him during that same thousand years. But how can that be if there is no thousand years. "A thousand years" is mentioned 6 times in Revelation 20, which means that it will be exactly that, a thousand years and which takes place after the Lord returns to the earth to end the age and after Satan is locked up in the Abyss, as revealed in the chronological order of Revelation.

Again, do you believe in what the word of God has to say? If you do, what do you do and where in time do you put the following event?

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"In My Father’s house are many rooms. If it were not so, would I have told you thatb I am going away to prepare a place for you? 3And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come back and welcome you into My presence, so that you also may be where I am. 4

"For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a loud command, with the voice of an archangel, and with the trumpet of God, and the dead in Christ will be the first to rise. 17After that, we who are alive and remain will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And so we will always be with the Lord."
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Regarding the above, Jesus promised to go and prepare places for believers in the Father's house in heaven. And that He was going to come back to get us to take us back to the Father's house to those places that He prepared for us. The second scripture is the detailed account of His coming to call us up and take the church back to the Father's house. So since the scripture is clear and God cannot lie, when do you see the event of Jesus coming back to get us taking place? Obviously that event hasn't happened yet and therefore it must still be future. The only way that you can get around the literal meaning of those scriptures, is if you symbolize or allegorize them, which distorts the true meaning.

End-time events cannot be applied to past historical events. And the reason why is that Jesus said that the time of God's wrath would be unequaled from the beginning of the world, until now and never to be equaled again. and that if those days had not been cut short that no one on earth would survive. Suffice to say, we the world has never experienced that type of tribulation and therefore must still be future.

We have the seals, trumpets and bowl judgments listed in chronological order 1 thru 7 for each set. They are numbered 1 thru 7 because that is the order in which they will take place. Satan and his angels being cast out of heaven and restricted to the earth is the results of the sounding of the seventh trumpet which is also the 3rd woe and which will overlap the seven bowl judgments which follow.

In Revelation 1:19, John was told to write what he had seen, what is now and what will take place later. The events of chapter 12 fall within the "what must take place later" part of the program which John was told to write, which means that the events of chapter 12 are still future.


Here's one of the problems with your claim above.

"This is the revelation of Jesus Christ, which God gave Him to show His servants what must soon come to pass."

The word "anastasis" translated "Revelation" means an unveiling of what was previously hidden, therefore the tribulation could not have possibly have begun in the 1st century. The other ginormous problem with that, is that Jesus said that all of this would take place in the last generation, which is anywhere from 40 to 70 years. Jesus also said that there would be a time of great tribulation unequaled from the beginning of the world, until the time He said, until now. This time of tribulation, which is God's wrath, will be carried out via the seals, trumpets and bowl judgments, of which none have yet taken place. Have you even read about the severity of those plagues of wrath? These are going to take place like birth pains, which means that they will get closer together and more intense as they go on. With just the first four seals and the 6th seal, over half of the worlds population will be killed and that within the first 3 1/2 years of that seven year period. This is the day of the Lord, not some typical event that took place in history.

We know that the first seal hasn't been opened yet because for one, the church is still here and two, the antichrist has not yet been revealed which is represented by the 1st seal rider on the white horse. The fact that no seven year covenant has been established by the antichrist, then the tribulation could not have yet begun.

The church will never see the antichrist! For believers will be caught up before he is revealed.





Is Rev 12 through Rev 19 all in chronological order? No!
However, I believe there is an overall forward progression from Rev 12 through Rev 19, but by no means is it all in chronological order.

For example, I believe the bowls of wrath are not in chronological order.

I believe no one can understand Revelation without the guidance and teaching of the Holy Spirit.
Yes, I believe the Holy Spirit has opened my eyes and taught me certain things in Revelation, but by no means do I understand it all and have all the answers.

I would like to share what I see with other true believers who are open to discussing the historicist view.[/QUOTE]

Hey too fast turtle, the only thing I would consider changing is the second second coming. The reason I would do that is after the Lord has come in His Second Coming He stays here reigning in the Millennial Temple during the thousand year reign.

yeah the great and terrible day of the Lord will happen at the end of the thousand year reign on earth at that time will be the faithful remnant saved out of Israel and now serving as priests in the Lord’s temple.the Gentiles will also be alive, the survivors from the first time Jerusalem was attacked and destroyed. They are deceived by Satan and so not to be too much of a bother they go to the Lord at Jerusalem. All the Gentiles die except a faithful remnant of them who come to belief in the Lord. The bodies of the dead Gentiles will be a feast for the birds of the air.

End of the millennium? Are you saying we are in the milennium now?

I believe we can still see what happens on earth after we are caught up...we will be a part of the "cloud of witnesses"

Actually, it is an assumption on your part that I am making assumptions. Listen to what I am saying, When it comes to the word of God, I don't make assumptions, but teach what the scriptures have to say. I study every day and have been doing so for most of my life. So please don't relegate my teachings to being assumptions. This is why I provide the scriptures and expound on them. I didn't just make up what I said about Jesus telling John what to write. In fact, Revelation 1:19 is the key to understanding the chronological order to revelation. Those who reject it do so because it screws up the beliefs that they have adopted from false teachers.

Please show me one!

What you have seen = Everything that John wrote from Rev.1:1 thru 1:19

What is now = Represented by the letters to the seven churches and which also represents the entire church period

what will take place later = Everything that happens after the "what is now," i.e. after the church period

That said, we are currently still in the "what is now" part of the program that John was told to write. Once the church is completed, the Lord will appear and call us up. After that will start the "what must take place later" which is supported in Rev.4:1 which where the Lord says "Come up here, and I will show you what must happen after these things.” What things? The church period.

First of all, it is only clear to you because you don't understand these end-time events. The war in heaven is a future event. Satan and his angels currently have access into heaven and will continue to do so until that 7th trumpet is sounded and up until they are cast out. In support of this, it is said that when the dragon is cast down to the earth that he pursues the woman/Israel and that she flees out into the wilderness to that place that God will have prepared for her for 1260 days. If you split this up into 30 day increments, it equals 3 1/2 years, which is referring to the last 3 1/2 years of that seven year period.

"For the accuser of our brothers and sisters, who accuses them before our God day and night, been hurled down.

Notice that Satan is accusing our brothers and sisters before God day and night up until he is cast out. Up until the 7th trumpet which is when Satan and his angels cast out, they will have access to heaven until that time.

If you go back to Daniel 9:27, that seven year period is divided up into two 3 1/2 year periods with the establishing of that seven years by the antichrist initiating it and the setting up of the abomination marking the middle of the seven. The 1260 days, 42 months and a time, times and half a time, which are all equal to 3 1/2 years, are referring to the two 3 1/2 year periods which make up that seven year period. The seven year period, which is the wrath of God, ends after the 7th bowl has been poured out. This is all future.

The problem with your "therefore" is that it is built upon false interpretations and is therefore not valid.

The woman which represents Israel, will figuratively give birth to the male child which is a collective name for the 144,000. In short, out of unbelieving Israel will come believing Israel, a 144,000 of them, 12,000 from each tribe, ergo, gives birth to.

Because #1, and as I already made known to you, everything from the Revelation 4 onward is the "what must take place later," i.e. what takes place after the church period. My claim is made from bringing in other scriptures related to end-time events. Since we know that the first seal has not yet been opened and that Satan and his angels being cast out of heaven to the earth will be the result of the sounding of the 7th trumpet, then the woman giving birth to the male child and dragon pursuing the woman, must still be future event. Nowhere in history has Israel fled out into the wilderness to a place prepared for her by God for 3 1/2 years.

All of this information that I have been sharing with you comes from a lot years of in depth study. I know what I am talking about. The people of this world and many professing Christians, have no idea what is coming upon this earth.

No. The last week of the 70 weeks of years begins when anti-christ and the false prophet come. Seven years later the Day of the Lord takes place. Anti-christ and false prophet defeated and thrown into lake of fire. Satan brought down in chain by an angel and placed in the Abyss for 1,000 years. The Nillennium takes place with the Millennial temple and Christ’s reign. Satan released after the thousand years leads Gentile nations against the Jerusalem where Lord is reign and meets with his defeat and being thrown into lake of fire where anti-christ and false prophet have been for 1,000 years.

Yes, I agree in that, after we are caught up we will probably be aware of the events happening on the earth. But prior to being caught up, we will never see the antichrist while we are here. To be clear, he won't be revealed until after we have been gathered.

Greetings Shekinahglory,

The phrase "the day of the Lord" is a time period which covers the entire seven years after the church has been caught up and should not be applied to just referring to the end of the seven years. The day of the Lord, which is that time of God's wrath/tribulation, will be carried out via the seals, trumpets and bowl judgments, which all make up the day of the Lord. In other words, the day of the Lord should be applied to the entire seven years.

Hi nice threading with you. I love it when good discussions start. The term can be used for the entire seven year period but is most associate with that one Day when the Lord makes His visible return. In like manner the Great and Terrible Day at the end of the millennium can be applied to both the one day He acts and to at the unspecified length of the tribulation which is so awful must be cut short for the elect. Long way to say I think we both have Scripture to back us up.

Cast Out Of God's Presence At His Fall?

The fact that Satan will eventually be thrown down to the earth brings up a question. The casting of Satan out of heaven, that is recorded in the Book of Revelation, can mean one of two things: either Satan will be thrown out of God's presence only at this particular point in history - which is still future - or that he had previously been thrown out of God's presence, but still had access to the stellar heavens. Some feel that he was cast out of God' presence the moment he sinned and now only has temporary access to the Lord. Others feel that he was not banished from God's presence when he sinned but rather will be only at this point that the Book of Revelation records (Revelation 12).

I see that Satan was cast down to Earth along time ago.

The LORD said to Satan, "Where have you come from?" Satan answered the LORD, "From going to and fro on the earth, and from walking up and down on it" (Job 1:7).

Ok
The seven hills part seems like the case for Rome but doesnt Jerusalem also sit on seven hills. Theres a lot of mention of different mounts around Jerusalem.

As for reigning over Kings ...isnt that mentioning ISRAELITE kings not heathen kings?

Sometimes I think that washington DC is like a subisdary of Rome though. Its styled like
Rome and reinforces republican ideals and like to think it rules over all nations. Perhaps.

Well, the problem that I see with Satan being thrown out of God's presence previously is that, He appeared twice before God in the book of Job. We also have Revelation 12:10 which says:

"Now have come the salvation and the power and the kingdom of our God, and the authority of His Christ. For the accuser of our brothers has been thrown down—he who accuses them day and night before our God.

In addition, in the scripture above we have Satan accusing the saints before God day and night, i.e. in God's presence, day and night

Yes, while it is true that Satan said the above, the part that we should be paying attention to is that He appeared before God at His throne, with the other angels to present themselves before God. In the scripture that you quoted above, God is simply saying to Satan "where have you been?" However, the thing to take note of is that Satan is in heaven in God's presence when He answers Him. If he was cast down to earth due to his original rebellion and had no more access to heaven, how could he appear before God in heaven to have Job tested?

God talked to Adam and Even and to the serpent when there were on earth.

Genesis 3:8-15
Then the man and his wife heard the sound of the Lord God as he was walking in the garden in the cool of the day, and they hid from the Lord God among the trees of the garden. 9 But the Lord God called to the man, “Where are you?”

10 He answered, “I heard you in the garden, and I was afraid because I was naked; so I hid.”

11 And he said, “Who told you that you were naked? Have you eaten from the tree that I commanded you not to eat from?”

12 The man said, “The woman you put here with me—she gave me some fruit from the tree, and I ate it.”

13 Then the Lord God said to the woman, “What is this you have done?”

The woman said, “The serpent deceived me, and I ate.”

14 So the Lord God said to the serpent, “Because you have done this,

“Cursed are you above all livestock
and all wild animals!
You will crawl on your belly
and you will eat dust
all the days of your life.
15 And I will put enmity
between you and the woman,
and between your offspring[a] and hers;
he will crush[b] your head,
and you will strike his heel.”

----1----- So God communicated to the serpent on the earth as He did with the man and woman.
----2----- Satan is relegated to crawling and eating dust/dirt. It sounds like he is banished to reside on Earth for the rest of his life. How can he fly back and forth to heaven when he must crawl on his belly?
----3----- God has put enmity between the serpent and the woman and this happened long ago. Sounds similar to the relationship between the dragon (also called serpent) and the woman in Rev 12, which could have also happened long ago.

Other verses to look at:

Acts 2:34
For David did not ascend to heaven, and yet he said, "'The Lord said to my Lord: "Sit at my right hand

Mark 12:36
David himself, speaking by the Holy Spirit, declared:

“‘The Lord said to my Lord:
“Sit at my right hand
until I put your enemies
under your feet.”

-----4------ David did not ascend to heaven to interact with God and receive his word. David received God's word through the Holy Spirit.

Luke 22:31-32
And the Lord said, “Simon, Simon! Indeed, Satan has asked for you, that he may sift you as wheat. But I have prayed for you, Simon, that your faith will not fail. And when you have turned back, strengthen your brothers.”…

----5---- We do not have to go to heaven to pray to God and petition Him.
----5---- Therefore, Satan does not have to go to heaven to petition God and to accuse us.

It seems that Satan could present himself to the Holy Spirit here on Earth.
Satan could accuse us day and night to the Holy Spirit (who is God) here on Earth.

Exactly!! But it can be put in simpler terms. There is only one city which Jesus declares would be destroyed (Lk 19:43-44, Mt 24:2, Mk 13:2) and that city, CLEARLY was Jerusalem. Not only did He predict it, He said it would happen in that generation. While Rome went through a civil war in 68-69, it wasn't destroyed. Jerusalem was totally and utterly destroyed with "not one stone left upon another."

The description of "Babylon's" destruction in Rev 18 was likened to that of a millstone being throw into the sea and "shall not be found anymore." This is exactly what happened to Jerusalem in 70 AD. It did not happen to Rome. John goes on in Rev 18 to say, "And in her was found the blood of prophets and saints, and of all who were slain on the earth.” This is exactly what Jesus says in Mat 23: 29-38.

Jesus doesn't name which disciples would die where, does He? Paul wasn't even known to them at the time. The first to die, was Jesus - in Jerusalem. Next was Stephen - in Jerusalem. Let's not forgot all the early Christians Paul was killing, WHERE? In Jerusalem. Lastly James, Jesus half-brother was killed - in Jerusalem.

In the passage you quote, Jesus was discussing the OT prophets, not his followers. He speaking of the past, "from the blood of righteous Abel to the blood of Zechariah son of Berechiah, whom you murdered between the temple and the altar." We know they killed many more too, like Isaiah, Amos, Michah, Habakkuk, and Jeremiah all killed by the Jews. Not only does He name some of the them (Zechariah), He also identified them (the Priests) as the responsible party. Then He says, "Assuredly, I say to you, all these things will come upon this generation.' THIS GENERATION, not some future one to us. It is clear as DAY!!

Forgot about all the horns and the Caesars when you have the facts right out in the open. There is no need to speculate.

Hi, I agree mystery Babylon is Jerusalem. Some of the reasons. If you believe the 70th Week of Years has not been fulfilled then there is a seven year period waiting for the time for removing the last of the dross, the apostate portion, and saving the remnant by coming back to the Mount of Olives and causing it to split in two forming a valley for their escape. Zec. 14.

Another reason is that the prophecy says judgment first to the Jew and then to the Gentile. The Jews will be judged at the end of the seven years of Daniel's of Daniel's 70th Week. The apostate portion of Israel is destroyed the remnant saved. There is then the Millennial Reign of Christ. At the end of the thousand years the Gentile nations follow Satan against Jerusalem only to be met and defeated by Christ fulfilling judgment second to the Gentiles with salvation coming next to the remnant that has come to belief in Christ, salvation has come to the Gentiles after the Jewish remnant has been saved and the prophecy is fulfilled.

We must remember there was and remains alot of hate or intense dislike for the Roman church and I believe that helped turn people to seeing Rome as mystery Babylon. Rome, and a number of other cities sit on seven hills but the prophecy is for a city that sits on seven mounts and that is Jerusalem. But there is so much more that we have missed.

The False Prophet is going to fulfill the prophecy in Malachi 4: 5 and come as Elijah. We are told many signs and wonders will be done but only one is singled out being named, bringing fire down from heaven. That fire will be the counterfeit Messiah, anti-Christ, coming in what will appear to be the Shekinah Glory. With this fire from heaven they will then have the fire to have the Temple open and functioning and this is important because this is the temple anti-christ is going to declare himself to be God. What kind of Messiah would he be if he can't even provide what's needed to open his temple. I have written enough contacting you cold so if you would like to discuss these things and more please let me know. Thanks.