Apostasy 101

By not believing anymore. It's really that simple..

The plant sprang up, yet no fruit sprang up. There was movement towards reaching it's desired goal, yet the plant was scorched and withered away instead of being firmly rooted and established, which explains why there was no fruit. Faith without works is dead, remember? Whether no root (which numerous translation state) or not well rooted, regardless, the end result is the same. Not firmly rooted and established from the start, which does not represent saving belief. The heart of the unbelievers soil is contrasted with that of the "good ground" hearer in the 4th soil, who's heart was "good" and "honest." Thus, his heart was not "good," being like the soil to which it corresponds, being "shallow" or "rocky," lacking sufficient depth. Such soil represents a sinner not properly prepared in heart. People who "believe" and "rejoice" at the preaching of the gospel (emotional response, shallow, temporary belief) without a prepared heart, and without a good and honest heart, and without having "root" in themselves, do not experience real salvation.

Those who stop believing what they previously professed to believe (shallow, temporary belief) demonstrate that their belief was never firmly rooted and established from the start. It’s really that simple.

I don't need the specific words, "can't lose your salvation" to understand that believers cannot lose their salvation.

Preserved forever (Psalm 37:28); Never perish or be snatched from the hand of Jesus (John 10:27-28); And whom He justified, these He also glorified (Romans 8:30); Sealed until the redemption of the purchased possession/unto the day of redemption (Ephesians 1:13-14); Sanctified once for all/perfected forever (Hebrews 10:10,14) etc.. says it all for me.

*You have no unequivocal verses that say lost salvation, unsealed by the Holy Spirit, unregenerated etc..

my experience shows me that you're probably of the 3rd type of fruitless soil, along with me and most of the church. We're fruitful, yet we're not fruitful and spend a lot of time choked out by the worries of this life, yet we are undeniably saved.

It's amazing that you can't see what you're doing. Even though you didn't go into detail in this post, I know you're literally saying, "they can't be real believers, because real believers don't stop believing." You're reading the parable through the bias of osas. And worse, you don't realize it.

Show us where it says the 2nd type of soil represents fake belief. Then I'll show you where it says they believed with no qualification of that being fake believing. See, you've already decided in your mind that people who stop believing never really believed to begin with. And it colors everything you see in the Bible about believers who stop believing.

Hebrews 10, IMO, is the definitive 'you can lose your salvation' passage. You can't show that 'sanctified' suddenly means an unsaved person in vs. 29. It's very easy for us to show that it does mean a saved person--the same saved 'sanctified' person being referred to in vs. 10 & 14.

There's no reason to insert a 'not really' in Hebrews 10:29 in our doctrine to preserve our doctrine. There is in yours. This happens to virtually every passage of scripture osas uses to defend itself. The passage in debate has to have a 'not really' attached to it to mean osas.

@mailmandan , maybe you'll get a better grasp on how you condemn yourself with your interpretation of the Parable of The Sower when you see the fruitfulness of the 4th type of soil being the fruit of the Spirit, not specific, active works of righteousness.

You and I can be firm believers in Christ, and even risen to a respectable level of conquering active outward sin in our lives, yet be full of greed, and hatred, and lust, and pride and all the other ugly things that come out of a man and make him unclean. And, honestly, I think that characterizes the vast number of genuine believers.

They look good on the outside, and they really are. But they are angry, judgmental, and worldly in attitude (i.e. the 'Not By Works' thread) and overwhelmed by the concerns and pride of this life. Yet they are very much saved.

And, they may have started out as #2 soil, stayed the course, and progressed to the 3rd type, and sometimes are 4th kind of soil. Don't write off all 2nd type of soil as definitely not saved. Give 'em time to grow. We'll see if the heat of adversity leaves them in that condition of heart, or worse, or if it develops better soil in them.

So many people in history obeyed God including Abraham:

Gen 26:4I will make your descendants as numerous as the stars in the sky, and I will give them all these lands, and through your offspring all nations of the earth will be blessed, 5because Abraham listened to My voice and kept My charge, My commandments, My statutes, and My laws.”

God does not say "because i put obedience in your father Abraham".
Abraham decided to obey God and it was credited as righteousness. Of course obedience leads to righteousness, not the other way round.

Rom 6:16Do you not know that when you offer yourselves as obedient slaves, you are slaves to the one you obey, whether you are slaves to sin leading to death, or to obedience leading to righteousness?

Who told you it is time to rest yet, you can only rest after you die, and yes, you rest in Christ:

Rev 14:
12Here is a call for the endurance of the saints who keep the commandments of God and the faith of Jesus.

13And I heard a voice from heaven telling me to write, “Blessed are the dead—those who die in the Lord from this moment on.”

“Yes,” says the Spirit, “they will rest from their labors, for their deeds will follow them.”

No one just decides to obey God and then begins obeying.

Obedience is a gift. It is the Holy Spirit given by God Himself that is the source of ALL obedience to God.

That's why that verse says "offer yourselves as obedient slaves".






The Lord Jesus tells us to come to Him and receive Rest. Right now. Before you die.

Hebrews 4 tells us that we enter into Rest because we believe in Christ. Not because we die.

Hebrews 4:3 For we which have believed do enter into rest, as he said, As I have sworn in my wrath, if they shall enter into my rest: although the works were finished from the foundation of the world.

Holy Spirit doesn't obey FOR US. WE OBEY.
He leads, but we follow. We take the steps. He shows us the way. We walk in the Light as He is in the light.

1 John 5
2 By this we know that we love the children of God, when we love God and keep His commandments. 3 For this is the love of God, that we keep His commandments. And His commandments are not burdensome.

Can you find any scriptural support (and I am talking as clear as the verse I just posted), that GOD OBEYS FOR US?

No one just decides to obey God and then begins obeying.

Obedience is a gift. It is the Holy Spirit given by God Himself that is the source of ALL obedience to God.

That's why that verse says "offer yourselves as obedient slaves".






The Lord Jesus tells us to come to Him and receive Rest. Right now. Before you die.

Hebrews 4 tells us that we enter into Rest because we believe in Christ. Not because we die.

Hebrews 4:3 For we which have believed do enter into rest, as he said, As I have sworn in my wrath, if they shall enter into my rest: although the works were finished from the foundation of the world.

Holy Spirit doesn't obey FOR US. WE OBEY.
He leads, but we follow. We take the steps. He shows us the way. We walk in the Light as He is in the light.

1 John 5
2 By this we know that we love the children of God, when we love God and keep His commandments. 3 For this is the love of God, that we keep His commandments. And His commandments are not burdensome.

Can you find any scriptural support (and I am talking as clear as the verse I just posted), that GOD OBEYS FOR US?

You mix up obedience (what we do) with fruit production (what he does). The two are distinct.

The order is as follows:
1) We love God
2) We obey God (because we love God)
3) We Abide in Christ (because we obey God)
4) God produces Fruit in us (Because we abide in Christ)

That's the order. And when God doesn't find fruit, it comes back to a lack of obedience, because you don't love God.

Holy Spirit doesn't obey FOR US. WE OBEY.
He leads, but we follow. We take the steps. He shows us the way. We walk in the Light as He is in the light.

1 John 5
2 By this we know that we love the children of God, when we love God and keep His commandments. 3 For this is the love of God, that we keep His commandments. And His commandments are not burdensome.

Can you find any scriptural support (and I am talking as clear as the verse I just posted), that GOD OBEYS FOR US?

amazing how all you legalists ( and the judeaizers) use 1st John to attempt to prove salvation by command keeping.

but, as usual, you fail to mention that John said , in this very letter, that the commands are to " believe in the name of the Son, and love one another".

so, to believe is to obey. and I have already schooled you as to what " believe" mean, you are well aware of the meaning.

Your red above, is directly linked to the green below. Now I school you back

8 Owe no one anything except to love one another, for he who loves another has fulfilled the law. 9 For the commandments, “You shall not commit adultery,” “You shall not murder,” “You shall not steal,” [b]“You shall not bear false witness,” “You shall not covet,” and if there is any other commandment, are all summed up in this saying, namely, “You shall love your neighbor as yourself.” 10 Love does no harm to a neighbor; therefore love is the fulfillment of the law.

So Mr GB9....
You shall not steal
You shall not murder
You shall not commit adultery
You shall not bear false witness
You shall not covet

Got it?

and when have I ever said that those things are no big deal?

as usual, you keep moving the goalposts, changing the subject.

and, do not get me mixed up with the free riders in the not by works thread ( which you ran away from).

I am NOT o.s.a.s..

I do speak the truth that we are saved by belief only, and salvation is NOT losable, as long as one believes.

you fight against this truth by dishonestly trying to manipulate Scripture. you are wrong for doing so.

No - my comments are laser focused.
You said " amazing how all you legalists ( and the judeaizers) use 1st John to attempt to prove salvation by command keeping.
but, as usual, you fail to mention that John said , in this very letter, that the commands are to " believe in the name of the Son, and love one another"."

Notice how your first line and your second line don't gel. In the first you allude to command keeping not being a requirement. In the second you introduce a command. So which is it?

Are you to love one another (Y/N)? You would have to admit Y. And this is a command. You are now command keeping. And just to put icing on the top, I showed you the true meaning of love one another in post nr356 (hint* you can see these same commands in Exodus 20). So if your command, is the same as Exodus 20, then you are a command keeper. Just like John said. You are upholding the law by loving your neighbour, which is part of your salvation.

I chose to extricate myself from the thread "Not by Works" as that has become so warped and distorted that it lost all edification. I bet right now there is a gaggle of geese slamming each other, feathers flying. Not edifying to those wanting to learn the truth. Let them have their forum. All 52673826 pages of it.

In terms of salvation not loseable, start here again. https://christianchat.com/bible-discussion-forum/apostasy-101.189485/#post-4121313 - you say as long as one believes. Well I say believes in INCLUSIVE of obedience. You kick against that requirement. I say you have already admitted it "but, as usual, you fail to mention that John said , in this very letter, that the commands are to " believe in the name of the Son, and love one another".

No one just decides to obey God and then begins obeying.

Obedience is a gift. It is the Holy Spirit given by God Himself that is the source of ALL obedience to God.

That's why that verse says "offer yourselves as obedient slaves".






The Lord Jesus tells us to come to Him and receive Rest. Right now. Before you die.

Hebrews 4 tells us that we enter into Rest because we believe in Christ. Not because we die.

Hebrews 4:3 For we which have believed do enter into rest, as he said, As I have sworn in my wrath, if they shall enter into my rest: although the works were finished from the foundation of the world.