Apostasy 101

"as do all works-salvationists."
In a lot of the discussions on this forum, this phrase is used a lot.
This is used in the context of what not to be, but the positive, what you would like people to be seems to be missing.

If I ignored the start, how you begin the walk in Jesus, and ignored the end, being like Jesus, what is in the middle?
It is this middle that seems to be our lives of faith, and what is being described called of God or not of God.

But living this is everything, what the whole new testament is about.
Some seem to say 99% of all believers are actually lost. Others hold the faithful exist in all fellowships.
Some support their theological group as the "saved".

I take it you hold the RCC are definitely outside the work of God, but what for you is in the work of God to any degree?

Some very strident pompous people are calling friends and brothers those who would fry them in hell, while others
enemies who are actually friends who walk in the Lords love. So I would like to shine some light on people and
their real positions to bring more clarity to what is being shared, and hopefully resolve some sinful behaviour
that is going on. God bless you.

How do you make every effort to enter rest when you don't believe in it?

Seems like you are making every effort to NOT enter rest.

How were you saved to begin with?

By all your works?

Or by calling on God?

The bible tells you explicitly how it happens.

Ephesians 2:8-9
8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:
9 Not of works, lest any man should boast.

Too many carnal people still giving their carnal opinions about how much work is required to reach Salvation and then keep that salvation. And then lose it if you don't keep working.

Not a whole lot of understanding of the ACTUAL way of salvation.


Probably no point in posting this to someone that is offended by the term "works-salvationist".

That phrase is used a lot because it's not hard to find people on Christian Chat who teach salvation by faith + works (at least in part) as the means of either obtaining and/or maintaining salvation. It's also common for such people to re-define faith to "include" works.

Lie to others ... @mailmandan does not lie.

And if anyone needs to be set free it is you...you believe you can atone for your own sins.

There is no way a person can ACTUALLY be saved and then stop believing in the one who saved them.

If you were drowning and just about to go under and someone pulled you out of the water could you later just not believe you were pulled out of the water?

No. Of course you could not just stop believing. Its really a silly thought.


But if all you have is an intellectual theory of what Salvation possibly is then you could have an intellectual theory on how a person could lose that fake salvation.

I put my faith in Jesus, repented of my sins and committed myself to stop doing evil and do good as unto the Lord.

I am not offended by the term "works-salvationist". I am looking for clarity on what is the walk for individual
posters. Labels are easy to create, but actually only work as guide.

At the core of our walk is Jesus and the Holy Spirit. As an outflow of this love is good works, praise and worship,
prayer and intercession, bible study and fellowship. Now that is quite of lot of content, and Paul encourages us
to sow to the Spirit and not to the flesh.

Ironically maybe even saying this is who we are is "works salvationist" for some, but I would suggest humbly,
they do not know the Lord or read their bibles. But that is fine, this is the internet, and a place for discussion
with all sorts, even if the label themselves as believers and followers of Jesus. God bless you.

Isn't it strange how people call themselves Christians but have no idea of what Christianity actually is?

Its like a bunch of carnal people took a vote and decided these are the works that get you in. If you do these then you are a Christian just like us.

But then Real Christians come in and say "No, those works DON'T get you in". Your works aren't what gets you in.

And all the workers scoff and say "You aren't a real christian like us"

Well, they are right, we aren't like them....

I am sooo glad that you got yourself free from RCC. Believe me when I say I have no affiliation with them. They truly are works salvationists. I don't stress any need for works; just for the need for a humble and repentant spirit. The Lord seems to extract fruits and works out of that somehow. He gives me a 'want to', as opposed to that old RC "have to". I do feel eternally secure. I know Jesus loves me and I know I love Him. Blessed assurance, Jesus is ours. PTL!

We know this. But how does this mean any and all unbelievers in the church are set apart as clean? You have to play your context card to prove your point. Especially, since the NT specifically states they are not clean, and are to be cast out of the church for the sake of the cleanness of the church. But if you are sure there is Biblical context that says fake believers among us are actually clean, not unclean, let's have it. Then I will show you, again, how the Bible says the exact opposite, and that they are NOT clean and should be removed from the church.

There is NOTHING in Hebrews that sets the context of the sanctified person in vs. 10 as having never believed. I showed you the context says the exact opposite. And you need to show us where in the NT it explains how fake believers in the church are sanctified by the blood of Christ, and I will show you where it explains they are not. (Barring, of course, the exception of the believer in marital union to an unbelieving spouse and the children they have.)


Not one church leader in the church immediately following the Apostles believed in osas. In fact, they opposed it. They may have been off on some things, but they were unanimous in their resistance to osas. It was rooted in Gnosticism and vehemently resisted. Did you know this? The osas that the church knows and loves was crafted by Calvin in the, what, 15th century, or somewhere about there. It's a later teaching in the church.

All you did was trade the Catholic church's false doctrine for the Protestant's false doctrine. We're just as wrong and misguided as the Catholics are, but in different things. The real truth is hiding in plain site and doesn't play denominational games. It's available to everyone if they would just get out of their doctrinal boxes and see that their way of seeing scripture is not the only way. There are things our denominations don't even let us know are out there.

Hi Grandpa,

I was trying to talk about our daily walk with Jesus, and you seem to be saying no that is not what it means to be a believer.
What then is your walk, or is only the beginning important to you, the rest is irrelevant?

Faith, No, Yes, Amen. I really do agree with everything in that post. God bless you, brother. I am not a works salvation guy. Never was.

For the umpteenth time, I already thoroughly explained my position in post #373. I didn't say anything about these unbelieving Hebrews in Hebrew 10:29 being clean, but "set apart" which doesn't mean they were saved. Hebrews 10:10, 14, 26, 39 also backs up my argument. The unbelieving spouse who is "sanctified" because of their believing spouse in 1 Corinthians 7:14 is not saved either. Just face the facts. We do not agree on this (and probably never will) and you will NEVER convince me otherwise. You need to get over it and move on.

That is the only place where we don't completely see eye to eye. I agree that it would be silly and stupid to throw Jesus in the trash can, but the Bible does say it can happen. As long as we keep loving God and each other, it doesn't matter. We are are still brothers and sisters.

Calvinism OSAS is a lie.

I'm sorry but I don't agree with this translation. It might be easy to read, but it loses a lot from the King James Version, which is translated directly from the Hebrew, and the Greek. "The Man of Evil" does not correctly describe "the son of perdition", which term Christ applied to Satan in John 17:12, it makes the identity of the person being spoken about to be generic, any man can be a man of evil, according to that, but the use of the term "son of perdition" is very specific, it is speaking of Satan as Anti-Christ; (1 John 2:18, 22; 4:3. 2 John 4:7)
and Anti- in the Greek is G500, which derived from G473 and G5547, which boils down to "Instead of"-Christ; which is another study in itself. But, regarding "son of perdition" in 2 Thess 2:3 and John 17:12:

John 17:12 "While I was with them in the world, I kept them in Thy name: those that Thou, (i.e., You, Heavenly Father), gavest Me I have kept, and none of them is lost, but the son of perdition; that the scripture might be fulfilled."

To quote E.W. Bullinger's note on John 17:12:
"the son, &c. This expression occ. (occurs) here and 2 Thess. 2.3 (the Antichrist). Used in the Sept.(the Septuagint) in Isa. 57.4, "children of transgression". Cp. (compare) Matt. 9.15; 13.38; 23.15. Luke 16.8. Acts 13.10. Eph. 2.2, in all which passages "child" should be "son".
perdition. Gr. apoleia, a kindred word to apollumi. Occ. twenty times. Only here in John. First occ. Matt. 7.13."

And per the Strong's:
son G5207 huios hwee-os'; appar. a prim. word; "son" (sometimes of animals), used very widely of immed., remote or fig. kinship:--child, foal, son.
perdition G684 apoleia, ap-o'-li-a from a presumed der. of 622; ruin or loss (phys., spiritual or eternal):--damnable (-nation), destruction, die, perdition, X perish, pernicious ways, waste.

So, the person in 2 Thess. 2:3 described as "the son of perdition", is more than just a "man of sin", compared to YHVH, he is a man, but he is Satan, a Cherubim (Ezekial 28:14), Abaddon (Hebrew) and Apollyon (Greek) of Rev. 9:11, literally "child of death", as to follow him is sure death, (Gen 2:17),
who is already tried, condemned, and sentenced to die the death, as per Ezekial 28:18. He is the only person that is already condemned to death, as the white throne judgment of Rev. 20:11-15 has not yet happened.
Rev. 9:11
Abaddon G3 Abaddon, ab-ad-dohn'; of Heb. or. (origin) [11]; a destroying angel:--Abaddon.
H11 'abaddown, ab-ad-done'; intens. from 6; abstr. a perishing; concr. Hades:--destruction
Apollyon G623 Apolluon, ap-ol-loo'-ohn; act. part. of 622; a destroyer (Satan);--Apollyon
G622 apollumi, ap-ol'-loo-mee; from 575 and the base of 3639; to destroy fully (reflex. to perish, or lose) lit. or fig.:--destroy, die, lose, mar, perish.

Also God said in Ezekial 28:16 "By the multitude of thy merchandise they have filled the midst of thee with violence, and thou hast sinned: therefore I will cast thee as profane out of the mountain of God: and I will destroy thee, O covering cherub, from the midst of the stones of fire.
17 Thine heart was lifted up because of thy beauty, thou hast corrupted thy wisdom by reason of thy brightness: I will cast thee to the ground, I will lay thee before kings, that they may behold thee."

YHVH will cast Satan out of Heaven, where the Archangel Michael at present is restraining him, Rev. 12:7-9, and then when he is cast to the ground, meaning here on Earth, in actual real time, he appears brightly, claiming to be the Son of God, Yeshua, Messiah, Jesus Christ our Savior, and as Apostle Paul states in 2 Thess. 2:3,

2 Thess. 2:3 "Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, (What day? Paul is referring here to the day of Christ's return)
except there come a falling away first, (who's going to fall away, and who/what will they fall away TO?)
and that man of sin be revealed, (now, here Paul calls him "that man of sin", but he's more than that)
the son of perdition (the destroyer, the destroying angel, Abaddon, Apollyon, Satan, child/son of death, spiritual death!) be revealed, (i.e. appear here on Earth in full view, sight of all people, he becomes visible to all of us in this dimension here on Earth)
He is kicked out of heaven, to this Earth (Luke 10:18 "And He said unto them, "I beheld Satan as lightning fall from heaven.")
Vs. 4 Who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped; so that He as God sitteth in the Temple of God, shewing himself that he is God."
Satan appears first on Earth, claiming to be Christ/God returned, and the whole world falls to him, thinking that he is actually Jesus Christ, he is the "Cosmic Christ" of the U.N. One-world religion, (Rev. 6:1-2) (FYI: that's already been set up). He appears and claims deity over all religions. He comes in peaceably and with flatteries, and all the kings of the nations bow to him. The whole world bows to and worships him, even Christians!! That's the great "falling away", that's the great apostasy: people worshiping the false one, the "Idol Shepherd" of Zechariah 11:17, thinking he is Jesus returned, and they get sucked into his false religious system (a.ka. beast). He copies everything about Christ, and those who are deceived into worshiping him, working for him, nursing along his agenda (Mark 13:17) are condemned to the 2nd death, the death of the spirit, the soul. (Rev. 14:9-11)

Revelation speaks of the 7 seals, the 7 trumpets, and the 7 vials. They denote the order of events in time.
Satan as Anti-Christ, the "Instead of"-Christ, appears at the 6th Seal, the 6th Trumpet, the 6th Vial. But:
Yeshua, Messiah, Jesus the Christ, the true Son of God-Savior appears at the 7th Seal, the 7th Trumpet, the 7th Vial.

I wonder if we have a problem of focus.
1. Sin - hurtful actions for our benefit at the cost to others
2. Relationship - an understanding between two parties

Often we do bad things by accident, by chance, as a result of anger, selfishness etc.
Someone gets hurt and a relationship is damaged.

If we put right the hurt, focus on the relationship things can be restored.
If we put things right, but ignore the relationship we have broken the relationship and do not care.

Our language often focuses on behaviour, as measured to a set of rules and not as measured to our
relationship to God. So the idea has come about if we behaved without sin, God would be ok with this.

So some believe we can be good, separate from God, and that is fine.
Or we can never be good, because we are too messed up, but Christ can be the glue so God is blind.

But in essence until we start caring about what God thinks and who He is all is lost.
We are called to walk the straight path, because God wants this and we love Him.
It is also the best thing for us, and when His Spirit dwells in our hearts we actually agree.

David got so amazed by Gods law, He wondered at it and how it operated, because it really was good.
Our relationship with God is not destroyed by one sin, but by us not loving and dealing with the relationship
consequences and hurt, and not sowing to the good relationship we have with God through the Holy Spirit.

I believe in the Sabath.

Believing Christ/Trusting Christ/ Obeying Christ/ Faith in Christ is nothing more than the works/deeds of love. Not our thoughts about Jesus because Christ is now a life giving spirit so we can not know Him after the flesh.

The concept of salvation is very different from what you are proposing. Salvation is not an exchange for what a man does or thinks, it is simply what the Lord did for all men (everyone)- not something we had a choice over. Yet abiding in the love of Christ (salvation/grace) takes our good works of love in obedience to Christ's command. So we don't do these works so that we get salvation but to abide in the love of Christ (which is salvation). These works are not our own works but were created in the beginning so that we walk in them.

Only after doing the will of God does a man get what God has promised.

Heb 10: 36You need to persevere, so that after you have done the will of God, you will receive what He has promised

Rom 2:6God “will repay each one according to his deeds.”a 7To those who by perseverance in doing good seek glory, honor, and immortality, He will give eternal life.

1 John 2:24As for you, let what you have heard from the beginning remain in you. If it does, you will also remain in the Son and in the Father. 25And this is the promise that He Himself made to us: eternal life.

And i doubt you do understand it yourself.

The grace of God is for all mankind, not a portion that thinks about Jesus. That is why Paul says it is a gift, free gift to sinners. Sinners means everyone.

Titus 2:11For the grace of God has appeared, bringing salvation to all men.

It is the second part of Eph 2:8-11, about works that actually matters.