Does I Corinthians 13 teach certain gifts ceased with the closing of the canon?

I do not know what point you are trying to make. That last paragraph looks almost like you took a bunch of sentences or religious phrases, cut them up on pieces of paper, drew them out of a hat, and strung them together.

I recall your mis-paraphrasing that last chapter of John. Are you referring to the chapter before last of John, though? The last chapter of John says that if all the works of Christ were written down, John supposed the world could not contain the books. The is just proof that not all Christ's works-- the works of Him Who revealed the Father--were not all written down.

Phrases you get from a letter from Paul who did miracles, shared revelations, wrote to covet to prophesy and to despise not prophesyings. Clearly he did not mean by the phrase what you have read into it in many of your posts.

No, the words of Joel are for the last day. John predicted men prophesying and doing miracles in the book of Revelation-- future events from when he wrote that 'amen.' If someone gets a prophetic word, he doesn't add it to the book of Revelation unless he actually adds it to the book of Revelation. Probably most prophecies in Biblical times were not added to the canon.

Our hope is the return of Christ and the resurrection of the dead. When the perfect comes, that which is in part will be done away. What does your question about hope have to do with your argument?

While our hope is in the Lord His return is not the perfect of 1 Cor 13.

The OT is the part which is in shadows. Prophecy pointing to the coming Savior. The NT is the completion of the prophecy of the Savior now here and completing the redemption plan of the Father. The NT no longer looks through shadows but the NT looks clearly at Christ and the promises He made to us.

It's obvious but some will not see.

For the cause of Christ
Roger

If that were true, then we would not disagree on this. If we all had perfect knowledge, we would be in agreement on this, and the numerous theologians, both in history and modern evangelicals would not disagree with you on this, because they would know better because their knowledge is perfect. But they do disagree and your position on the issue is therefore proven to be wrong. It also does not fit the text well.

I would encourage you to address the issues raised in the OP regarding an interpretation that actually has internal support from the text.

Again that's one kind of perfect. Another kind is the fleshly demonstration that the Son of man finished. The perfect has come to those who walk by faith .

2 Corinthians 5:16 Wherefore henceforth know we no man after the flesh: yea, though we have known Christ after the flesh, yet now henceforth know we him no more.

The point is simply enough.Asa law not subject to change. Do not violate the warning to not add or subtract from the whole .What was in part prior to it is no now made complete, perfect.

Do you need more that he has revealed in order to walk by faith,the unsen eternal? The skies the limit Satan is still bringing his sign as lying wonders . Wonders as source of faith. He said it a evil generation natural unconverted man that does walk by sight .the forward generation "no faith".

Exactly. Peter the serial denier who was still supporting a "law of the fathers' that was used to murder Christians as oral tradition of men. Peter was starting a lie as a oral tradition. Jesus said if every time a person attempted to add to prophecy with a oral tradition of men as lies .The world could not hold the books that could of been written .

It was not a plank check fill in your own ideas and caller them prophecy and make the warning at the end of cannon without effect.

That's a Catholic idea they need Peter who blasphemed Jesus as the Son of man to be their personal infallible interrupter. (daysman)

A sign against them and anyone that comes up with their own ideas of what prophecy is as the tongue of God. ,.

Does 1st Corinthians use cease, fail and vanish away as applied to tongues, prophecy and supernaturally given knowledge while saying NOW ABIDES faith, hope and love?

I hear Chubby Checker being cued up in the back ground!!

Jesus warned of false prophets, and said that he was sending prophets, wise men, an scribes. He warned about false christs showing signs and wonders but also empowered His disciples to do miracles and even those who would believe their message.

You should not add or subtract to Jesus' teaching on this message-- subtracting the teaching about saints being empowered to heal and do wonders, subtracting the teaching about prophets or the apostles teachings on gifts of the Spirit, and adding this idea that those who do such things are automatically false.

Paul says of prophesyings to prove all things. Hold fast to that which is good. If you reject prophesyings as false because they do not fit with your theories, then you are disobeying Paul's teaching because you reject without proving them.


What are you talking about?
You should not add statements to scripture or attribute words to Jesus that H did not say? Show me chapter and verse where Jesus said such a thing.

John's epistle (ch 21) closes with this
25 And there are also many other things which Jesus did, the which, if they should be written every one, I suppose that even the world itself could not contain the books that should be written. Amen.

Your adding and changing words is not consistent with your arguments earlier in this thread. Who is the one in this discussion who keeps adding teachings not taught in scripture? i see this repeatedly in your posts, which also twists the teaching of scripture-- using phrases from scripture in your own sentences to say things the scriptures do not teach. I suspect you do this out of confusion rather than a malicious intent, but you do it.
word salad.

Peter denied Jesus, but do you add to the teaching of scripture to say that Peter blasphemed Peter? Jesus restored Peter, so you should not be so free to speak ill of him. If Roman Catholics claim him as their pope that does not mean you should speak ill of him.

If you believe the perfect in corinthians mean when a man walk in faith, than It come to apostle Paul 2000 years ago, and Paul do miracle.

This is your believe

When the perfect come, No more miracle
Perfect mean faith

So you believe when we have faith in Jesus, It Will be No miracle anymore

Is that what you believe?

Your wrong in several fronts:

1. Apostles were appointees of the Lord and not just the 12 disciples. Where do you get the idea that those other people, apart from the 12 disciples were not apostles? In another passage we are told Jesus appointed 72 men.

2. Gifts had a purpose as outlined by several passages including Heb 2. Once that purpose is done then the gifts are also done away with just as is said in 1 Cor 13.
Example: Balaam's donkey was gifted for some few seconds and once the purpose of that gift expired, also the gift went away. You assertions are akin to saying, "... now that Balaam's donkey spoke, all donkeys should speak"

3. I don't understand why you bring Moses' miracles in this discussion.
Again, Heb 2 says:

1We must pay the most careful attention, therefore, to what we have heard, so that we do not drift away. 2For since the message spoken through angels was binding, and every violation and disobedience received its just punishment, 3how shall we escape if we ignore so great a salvation? This salvation, which was first announced by the Lord, was confirmed to us by those who heard him. 4God also testified to it by signs, wonders and various miracles, and by gifts of the Holy Spirit distributed according to his will.

A.The gospel was announced by those who heard Him- also means those He appointed.
This was one criteria of an apostle and today, no one qualifies as 'one who heard Him', we are all in the same box of those who read about Him or read what those who heard Him wrote about Him.

B. It was testified by God through miracles and gifts and signs as those who heard Him went about preaching about Him.

Paul doesn't say it will continue to be confirmed through miracles and gifts.
This is the reason i use Heb 2.

I never said apostleship was limited to the 12, either in the past or now. There is a post-ascension gift of apostleship seen in Ephesians 4.

Hebrews 2 told of God bearing witness to them that heard Christ-- it doesn't specify apostles-- with signs, wonders, and gifts of the Holy Ghost. But it does not say that they were the only ones who did miracles. I Corinthians 12 indicates that some later Christians did miracles, too. And in the Old Testament, there were those who did miracles before Christ was born.

Why don't we discuss the specific arguments in the OP. Your interpretation of I Corinthians 13 does not fit the context. I Corinthians 13 does not mention the ceasing of all gifts, either.

If the Bible gave many examples of donkeys speaking and said that donkeys would be empowered to speak on a regular basis, that would be reasonable. But it doesn't. The Bible does list the working of miracles among gifts given to members of the body of Christ as the Spirit wills.

This shows that miracles are not the exclusive domain of the apostles since there were miracles before the apostles were born.

This salvation, which was first announced by the Lord, was confirmed to us by those who heard him. 4God also testified to it by signs, wonders and various miracles, and by gifts of the Holy Spirit distributed according to his will.

This is just language, you don't need me to explain for you to understand.
First announced by the Lord and then confirmed to us by those who heard Him. Those who heard Him and came to confirm it to us were the ones that were gifted because God testified of it through them. So Paul is asking, after seeing all these how can we escape judgement.
No one today qualifies as part of 'those who heard Him' aka Apostles.

It does, "..these three shall remain, love, hope and faith"- also mean that all the gifts shall cease.

The donkey was gifted by God and as soon as the purpose was achieved, that gift disappeared. That's my point.
If as per Heb 2, the purpose of the gifts was to testify about the gospel of salvation which was already preached to all creatures by the 1st century, then their purpose was done in the 1st century.

Col 1: 23if indeed you continue in your faith, established and firm, not moved from the hope of the gospel you heard, which has been proclaimed in all creation under heaven, and of which I, Paul, have become a servant.


We re talking about gifts of the Holy spirit whose scope was only the first century church. Miracles have always been performed by God's people and those that are not God's (Example-Pharaoh's men). We are also told satan's coming is accompanied by all sorts of display and wonders and miracles meant to mislead people. So on this regard, no one is saying there are no miracles today, all we are saying is that the gifts of the Holy spirit ceased.

1. Jesus anounce salvation, than apostle continue the anoncement.

Paul heard and believe about salvation after Jesus went to heaven.

So do us, we know Jesus after Jesus went to heaven, most of us hear from people that never heard salvation from Jesus.

Only small port ion of Christian today heard directly from Jesus in muslim country.

I listen to radio or youtube how some muslim meet Jesus in visions and accept Him.

My ex neighbors was a big Imam, he dream about Jesus when he was junior high, he do not accept Him till he become a big Imam, It take more than 25 years of struggle before he accept Him and bring 89 Imam to the Christ.

This youtube tell about muslim accept Jesus because they see Jesus in visions or dream

Some time prophecy still happen and make muslim turn to Christ. It is happen in Indonesia and It may happen every where.

In town where I life in my childhood, there was a chinese, he was a leader in the chinese temple. His uncle was also believe in chinese religion. One day, his uncle sick, and the doctor give up. There was a Christian hospital close by and the pastor pray for him. He walk and heal. He accept The Lord and tell to his nephew.

His nephew leave temple and accept Jesus, and he was a man that make my family accept Jesus.

One day a muslim mayor in my town lost his son, this mayor come to this man, ask
If Christian God able to help him. This man pray and God give him a visions, he SAW a beach near by, and he SAW like a Coconut. About 200 meter from the Waru tree (waru is the name of the tree in Indonesia)in the beach. And he told to the mayor, there is your son.

I think this is kind of prophecy.

I do not believe prophecy cease now. It Will when we go to heaven.

Now we still need.

Prophecy about antichrist is oN the bible, we do not need It anymore, but in every day life, we still need direction and that Will be help full If there is prophecy, like what happen to muslim mayor son, finally the mayor and police went to the beach and Find his son there

Sorry I forget to Paste the youtube

No, i don't think so.

We walk by faith that comes from hearing the gospel the unseen eternal .Not by sight after the temporal seen. (1 Corinthian4:18)

It would seem you are not mixing faith in what you see or hear called the gospel . Hebrews informs us no Sabbath rest for those who refuse to mix faith .

Hebrews 4 King James Version (KJV) Let us therefore fear, lest, a promise being left us of entering into his rest, any of you should seem to come short of it. For unto us was the gospel preached, as well as unto them: but the word preached did not profit them, not being mixed with faith in them that heard it.

The perfect came with the last words inspired to John. Revelation remains the last chapter. Do we need more than he has revealed. Is there a law missing by which we could know him more intimately?

We are not to worship the hands of Paul or any apostle. That's a Catholic thing. . hoping flesh and blood could profit for something that the eyes see (no faith)

Miracles are miracles nothing more and nothing less. God performs miracles all day every day .

God is not served by human hands .He can put his words of prophecy in the mouth of a Ass. Like that of Balaam's.It as a ceremonial law is used to represent unbelief.(no faith) The words of prophecy stopped the madness of that false prophet .

When men accredit the unseen work of God. . to the hands of sinful men. Remember hands represent the "will" the in scripture. Then if attributed to hands it gives birth to the pagan gods. The abomination of desolation .Which is simply the things seen in the unseen place holy place of God as his hidden glory. He will not share that unseen work of the gospel with corrupted flesh and blood.

Even Jesus said clearly His flesh profits for nothing, zero zip . It is the unseen work of the Spirit called the gospel that does profit causing growth . God is not a man as us.

The preaching of the gospel is the power of God from faith (the unseen eternal) to the same. It does the work of healing, Again God is not served by human hands in any way shape or form

And there they preached the gospel. And there sat a certain man at Lystra, impotent in his feet, being a cripple from his mother's womb, who never had walked:The same heard Paul speak: (the gospel) who stedfastly beholding him, and perceiving that he had faith to be healed, Said with a loud voice, Stand upright on thy feet. And he leaped and walked.And when the people saw what Paul had done, they lifted up their voices, saying in the speech of Lycaonia, The gods are come down to us in the likeness of men. And they called Barnabas, Jupiter; and Paul, Mercurius, because he was the chief speaker.Then the priest of Jupiter, which was before their city, brought oxen and garlands unto the gates, and would have done sacrifice with the people. Which when the apostles, Barnabas and Paul, heard of, they rent their clothes, and ran in among the people, crying out, Acts14: 7-14

If we would attribute the unseen work of the gospel to the apostles then Paul and Barnabus tore thier clothing to show blasphemy was simply in vain .

If you are interested in making them gods in the likeness of men then we can walk by sight and make the work of the unseen spirit without effect.

That would represent the false prophets that dare go above that which is written. Its an evil generation, natural, faithless mankind that does look to vision created in the own fleshly mind.

When Jesus experienced those kind of visions in Mathew 4 . The father in heaven would give him the words to say...., as it is written. . Three times the emphasize the one exclusive source of faith. Then the father of lies Satan the devil fled away .

The commandment below we are to abide in is our safeguard of a false gospels. The elect that do abide will not be deceived.

Let no man beguile you of your reward in a voluntary humility and worshipping of angels, intruding into those things which he hath not seen, vainly puffed up by his fleshly mind, Colossian2:18 King James

Some people enjoy acting as if they are humble and love to worship angels. They always talk about the visions they have seen. Don’t listen to them when they say you are wrong because you don’t do these things. It is so foolish for them to feel such pride, because it is all based on their own human ideas. Colossian2:18 ERV

Jesus in Mathew 4 would not worship the fallen angels by puffing up his fleshly mind as alternative source of faith

An evil faithless generation "natural unconverted mankind" seeks after sign as wonders called visions .None were given. The last the sign of Jonas fulfilled by the Son of man, Jesus.

Makes me wonder when he comes will he find his faith workingin the hearts of men .Or will men walk by sight as those that experience signs as wonders. Out of the body or I had a dream experiences are on the rise.

Its like experience one, who needs the faith that alone comes from hearing God as it is written..... a form of self edification( false pride..)

Would you explain more, wich part you not believe?

You do not believe the gift of prophecy or visions?

I think because most of people that prophecy is kind of from their own imagination, and I also doubt of most prophecy.

If prophecy tell what happen to the future and It say before It happen than happen, than I Will consider. As from the Lord.

But I believe we still need that gift. O thing wrong with that gift. Vissions bring a Lot of muslim come to the Lord in my country, they not Lie, some of them go to jail, lost their job, If they Lie why willing to go to jail. Like my ex neighbors the judge put 4 years in prison but he only did 2 years becouse 2 years discount.

Going to jail because of ones convictions means nothing; Some Muslims bomb themselves to pieces because of what they believe.

Visions and dream happen in the bible.

You say visions is own imagination is all visions imagination?

And you give Example when Jesus had visions.

So you believe It was Jesus imagination?

I don't think so. Jesus visions is real, real devil come to Jesus.

I agree most visions happen now is only imagination, but real visions is a gift and It is in the bible. And those gift are still effective to draw people to the Lord specifically in muslim country.

I know a Lot of people pretend to prophecy, but not all.

Because they believe Will go to heaven and get 72 virgin

But why pretend to have dream or visions about Jesus than lost his job and go to jail

My conclution is this people not Lie. They are see a visions and dream. And not only one but a lots

And whats a wrong with a gift?