Does I Corinthians 13 teach certain gifts ceased with the closing of the canon?

[JohnR7]

Cessationism is the belief that gifts of the Spirit, or certain gifts, ceased in the first century or at some later time.

Just the opposite is true. The latter rain is greater then the beginning. There is more of the power of God in the earth now that we are in the final harvest. Moses and Joel talk about this latter rain: "I will send rain on your land in its season, both autumn and spring rains, so that you may gather in your grain, new wine and olive" (Deut11:14)

 

[JohnR7]

Than we do not need the gift If healing, because No body sick there.

There is healing in Heaven, in the right of life that flows from the throne of God into the crystal sea. Also in the leaves of the tree of life along the river there is healing.

 

[posthuman]

The perfect come when we are in heaven.

Than we do not need the gift If healing, because No body sick there.

I agree; I do not see how anything in the context of 1 Corinthians 13 is talking about the completion of the writing of scripture. The subject is love and how it is greater than signs, even faith and hope are greater than signs. The person who believes because he trusts God has greater faith than the person who believes because he witnesses miracles. So it makes much more sense that 'that which is perfect' has reference to the perfection of love, rather than the Apostles writing the last things they were given to write.

 

[posthuman]

Just the opposite is true. The latter rain is greater then the beginning. There is more of the power of God in the earth now that we are in the final harvest. Moses and Joel talk about this latter rain: "I will send rain on your land in its season, both autumn and spring rains, so that you may gather in your grain, new wine and olive" (Deut11:14)

What is rain in this, is it power to make miracles? What is the grain spoken of, powerful signs?

 

[Dino246]

And i respect that but from understanding of the scriptures, no credibility to such claims.

I understand them differently, and you have no sound reason to conclude that the understanding God has given me is somehow inferior to the understanding God has given you.

 

[Noose]

I understand them differently, and you have no sound reason to conclude that the understanding God has given me is somehow inferior to the understanding God has given you.

I did not hear your understanding so can't tell or argue but:

Jer 31:
31Behold, the days are coming, declares the LORD,
when I will make a new covenant
with the house of Israel
and with the house of Judah.

32It will not be like the covenant
I made with their fathers
when I took them by the hand
to lead them out of the land of Egypt—
a covenant they broke,
though I was a husband to them,g ”


33“But this is the covenant I will make with the house of Israel
after those days, declares the LORD.
I will put My law in their minds
and inscribe it on their hearts.
And I will be their God,
and they will be My people.

34No longer will each man teach his neighbor or his brother,
saying, ‘Know the LORD,’
because they will all know Me,
from the least of them to the greatest, declares the LORD.
For I will forgive their iniquities
and will remember their sins no more.”

 

[JohnR7]

Jokes aside, did you really talk to Paul in a vision? How? what did he say?
I thought such things ceased.

Paul quoted David in the Psalms only he changed a word. I think he changed the word good to right. So I prayed and asked how can Paul change a word like that. An angle must have heard my prayer and the next thing I am in Heaven talking to Paul. It is more like he was giving me packets of information for me to process. He talked about what David was teaching us. Then He talked about what he wrote. Then he asked me why am I not living free from sin. I did not answer him. If I remember everything took about 12 seconds. Time is a lot different there then it is here.

 

[garee]

No, i mean kill like make me breathless.
Just kidding. All is well.

My wife is like only its my breath she warns will be taken away if I don't understand . Just kidding . Different kinds of fingerprints make up our heresy as differences of opinion like a rainbow that brings the peace of God, surpassing our understanding as a living wonderment. . . why it was not destroyed totally by the flood. The gospel mystery made known.

 

[garee]

The perfect come when we are in heaven.

Than we do not need the gift If healing, because No body sick there.

That's another perfect. We are talking about the perfect before the end comes. The one Paul warns us before hand of. The warning that makes it impossible to deceive the elect that hear God in regard to those who say; "lo Is Christ I had a dream out of the body vision" .

They simply confirm the warning in the last new revelation before God sealed it off with seven seals as a curse to those who go above that which is written (sola scriptura) as it is written . The word it representing the unseen faith of Christ that works in us who do believe. .Having that power in us not of us.

Do we need more than he has chosen to reveal?

And except those days should be shortened, there should no flesh be saved: but for the elect's sake those days shall be shortened.
Then if any man shall say unto you, Lo, here is Christ, or there; believe it not. For there shall arise false Christs, and false prophets, and shall shew great signs and wonders; insomuch that, "if" it were possible, they shall deceive the very elect. Behold, I have told you before. Mathew 24:22- 25

 

[oldethennew]

these scriptures have an agriculture meaning and a Spiritual meaning =
it always helps to have the 'basics'...

 

[Jackson123]

That's another perfect. We are talking about the perfect before the end comes. The one Paul warns us before hand of. The warning that makes it impossible to deceive the elect that hear God in regard to those who say; "lo Is Christ I had a dream out of the body vision" .

They simply confirm the warning in the last new revelation before God sealed it off with seven seals as a curse to those who go above that which is written (sola scriptura) as it is written . The word it representing the unseen faith of Christ that works in us who do believe. .Having that power in us not of us.

Do we need more than he has chosen to reveal?

And except those days should be shortened, there should no flesh be saved: but for the elect's sake those days shall be shortened.
Then if any man shall say unto you, Lo, here is Christ, or there; believe it not. For there shall arise false Christs, and false prophets, and shall shew great signs and wonders; insomuch that, "if" it were possible, they shall deceive the very elect. Behold, I have told you before. Mathew 24:22- 25

It doesn't say that the perfect was before heaven. We aren't life in a perfect world yet now.

Look at what happen in the world, war, Cheating, corupt.

Jesus is perfect, and He was come, when the perfect (Jesus) came, there was a gift of healing, gift of miracle, water turn to wine etc.

Than another perfect came (Holy Spirit) This perfect make a Lot of gift, Peter speak and preach in a Lot of language in the same time and 3000 people accepted Jesus.

And the same perfect is here now.

My conclution is, the word perfect in Chorinthians mean heaven after end time.

No need gift of healing anymore because No body sick






So It is not t

 

[Blade]

Ever been in a room of people and seems no one talks to you, sees you? This might be silly or even stupid to others but Jesus? Yeah Hes REAL! Hes so REAL..we KNOW Hes alive and died for us.. Hes in us, will never leave us. Then the oh the HOLY SPIRIT! Hes real. He leads and guides us into all truth. And He talks.. just not about himself.

Yeah! God is so real...seems we can't just ask Him.. talk to Him huh. I'll give you one. That is so very very close to my heart. I watched on day as Jewish people talked about finding Christ. Oh I cried so many times. But.. something they were saying really started to get to me. "There God"? "They have MY God". They were talking about Christians. I started to think.. what do I have.. left overs of their God? That I really am that dog that eat what the "children" drop on the floor? YES I know how stupid that WAS but I got lost in it lol.

So before bed I wanted God to tell me He loved me just as much as He loved them. So I TRIED to picture me sitting with a Jewish person sitting to my left and Jesus in front. I could not picture Christ.. anyway. So I said.. please tell me you love me just as much as you love him. I was crying. I KNOW I am putting my self out here. Its ok. So this is what happen.. this hand come down.. yeah what I pictured came to life. This hand comes down with this ...oh it was SO BEAUTIFUL.. a small light yet dark brown tree. WOW it had TONS.. I mean TONS of branches. ALL shaped like a "U". Then He said "show me a branch that was not originally of the vine. I am the vine you are the branches"

Thats how GOD answered me about "I LOVE YOU JUST AS MUCH". I ONLY wanted to hear " I LOVE YOU". Look how He answered. Do you know how LONG it took me to understand "originally of the vine".. WHO is that? What did He mean? I had no clue. I still guess that means Israel? Oh so I told my oldest son about this and he then told me about some of those Jewish candles? Ever see those one that are shaped like a "U"? YEAH! That was it! HAHA my son told about that.

I am 58 and what happen here only happen ONE other time in my life. Oh I pray wish it did but. My point is. Hes real See I asked from my heart. I really needed to know. I know the enemy was using it. All my life He always backs up what He says with the word "I am the vine you are the branches". I still can't get past how He said He loved me. It was the perfect answer. I would have NEVER EVER seen that as His love.

Hes real. Ask HIM if His gifts are alive working today. Know this... doubt. He will not go against what you or I believe. You tell HIM they are dead and gone. Thats what you will see. Am I greater than God? Well I LOVE to talk to my kids all the time.. ALWAYS want to hear from them. I NEVER get tired of seeing them being with them. How much MORE is God with US?

 

[garee]

It doesn't say that the perfect was before heaven. We aren't life in a perfect world yet now.

Look at what happen in the world, war, Cheating, corupt.

Jesus is perfect, and He was come, when the perfect (Jesus) came, there was a gift of healing, gift of miracle, water turn to wine etc.

Than another perfect came (Holy Spirit) This perfect make a Lot of gift, Peter speak and preach in a Lot of language in the same time and 3000 people accepted Jesus.

And the same perfect is here now.

My conclution is, the word perfect in Chorinthians mean heaven after end time.

No need gift of healing anymore because No body sick

So It is not t

Again more than one kind of perfect the completing of things.

The cannon was perfected. Sealed it up with 7 seals and a warning not to add or subtract now that we have the complete or perfect.

Sola Scriptura is still the reforming authority of any generation. It has no laws missing by which we could known our Father in heaven more adequately . Why the need of more than he has revealed ?

Not the perfect that comes in the new heavens and earth . We are perfected in Christ according to His work of faith, our living Hope. The new bodies is another kind of perfect. The perfect time of reformation had come.


God is no longer doing those kind of miracles as recorded. No need for them that walk by faith the unseen eternal.

Knowledge of them healing ceased along with the end of new revelations prophecy. It does not mean God does not heal .

He never did heal in respect to human hands to begin with as if he was served by human hands as some sort of confirming agent. .

That is for the sign and wonders seekers needed for self edification a form of false pride . They make Jesus into a circus seal . Do a miracle and then after we see it we will believe. A sign of faithlessness .No such thing as a literal what the eyes see sign . The word sign and gift are not used together to create that kind of doctrine. Spiritual unseen gifts yes.

John 6:30 They said therefore unto him, What sign shewest thou then, that we may see, and believe thee? what dost thou work?


John 4:48 Then said Jesus unto him, Except ye see signs and wonders, ye will not believe.

 

[Jackson123]

Again more than one kind of perfect the completing of things.

The cannon was perfected. Sealed it up with 7 seals and a warning not to add or subtract now that we have the complete or perfect.

Sola Scriptura is still the reforming authority of any generation. It has no laws missing by which we could known our Father in heaven more adequately . Why the need of more than he has revealed ?

Not the perfect that comes in the new heavens and earth . We are perfected in Christ according to His work of faith, our living Hope. The new bodies is another kind of perfect. The perfect time of reformation had come.


God is no longer doing those kind of miracles as recorded. No need for them that walk by faith the unseen eternal.

Knowledge of them healing ceased along with the end of new revelations prophecy. It does not mean God does not heal .

He never did heal in respect to human hands to begin with as if he was served by human hands as some sort of confirming agent. .

That is for the sign and wonders seekers needed for self edification a form of false pride . They make Jesus into a circus seal . Do a miracle and then after we see it we will believe. A sign of faithlessness .No such thing as a literal what the eyes see sign . The word sign and gift are not used together to create that kind of doctrine. Spiritual unseen gifts yes.

John 6:30 They said therefore unto him, What sign shewest thou then, that we may see, and believe thee? what dost thou work?


John 4:48 Then said Jesus unto him, Except ye see signs and wonders, ye will not believe.

Bible is information of how to be save.

And bible tell us that there are a gifts.

Paul explain and give a list of gift.

I agree not to add or change the bible

That is why I believe the gift of miracle, like Paul explain in corinthians.

Again, Jesus is perfect, He was come and miracle still there come along with Him.

So the word perfect can mean a Lot of thing

Ex, Jesus, Holy Spirit, the Word or the teaching of Jesus etc.

The teaching of Jesus come 2000 years ago, It is perfect

After Jesus went to heaven, miracle still there

So the word perfect in this verse is heaven, because when we are there we do not need the gift of healing, No body sick

 

[presidente]

Teaching/leading/giving were there before Christ and the church even in the OT. The gifts of the Holy spirit were specifically given to the Apostles and their appointees to help them establish the church in 1st century after which they ceased.
Their specific purpose was to aid in preaching the gospel; "and after this gospel is preached to all the nations, the end will come.."

The life of the apostles is testament to the fact that the gifts ceased. During their time, no prison cell could hold them, they broke out of chains miraculously but as soon as they finished their mandate, they faced a brutal death, each one of them just as they were promised.

Heb 2: 3how shall we escape if we ignore so great a salvation? This salvation, which was first announced by the Lord, was confirmed to us by those who heard him. 4God also testified to it by signs, wonders and various miracles, and by gifts of the Holy Spirit distributed according to his will.

God is not still testifying to the gospel today, the canon took over what the Apostles were doing. If we want to get the gospel, we go to the canon.

You the Bible actually contradicts your theory.

1. Miracles were never the sole domain of the apostles.

Moses did miracles before the twelve apostles were born. When the apostles were travelling with Jesus, they rebuked some men who were not a part of their group for doing miracles. Jesus corrected them. Even before the ascension, there were men doing miracles who were not apostles.

And Stephen and Philip (the evangelist not the apostle) did miracles. They weren't numbered among the twelve, yet did miracles. Paul lists the working of miracles among the gifts of the Spirit while addressing his formerly pagan audience. Toward the end of the chapter, he gives a list of gifts/ministries which starts with 'first apostles' and includes 'miracles' as a separate ministry from apostles.

 

[presidente]

That's another perfect. We are talking about the perfect before the end comes. The one Paul warns us before hand of. The warning that makes it impossible to deceive the elect that hear God in regard to those who say; "lo Is Christ I had a dream out of the body vision" .

re you cutting and pasting here? The verse warns against them that say, "Lo, Here is Christ, or there." It's not a warning about dreams or 'out of the body vision'. Peter quotes Joel regarding the outpouring of the Spirit 'your old men shall dream dreams.' Paul wrote of a man caught up into the third heaven, whether in the body or out of the body, he could not tell.

 

[presidente]

Paul quoted David in the Psalms only he changed a word. I think he changed the word good to right. So I prayed and asked how can Paul change a word like that. An angle must have heard my prayer and the next thing I am in Heaven talking to Paul. It is more like he was giving me packets of information for me to process. He talked about what David was teaching us. Then He talked about what he wrote. Then he asked me why am I not living free from sin. I did not answer him. If I remember everything took about 12 seconds. Time is a lot different there then it is here.

I'm wondering if the quote was in Ephesians 5. The Hebrew lǝ could be translated different ways.

 

[garee]

re you cutting and pasting here? The verse warns against them that say, "Lo, Here is Christ, or there." It's not a warning about dreams or 'out of the body vision'. Peter quotes Joel regarding the outpouring of the Spirit 'your old men shall dream dreams.' Paul wrote of a man caught up into the third heaven, whether in the body or out of the body, he could not tell.

Why widen the authority of the word of God. What's the hope?

Cutting and pasting what? Lo is Christ is in respect to a vison revealed from the third heaven where all vision and dreams as prophecy are loosed from .it was a warning beforehand hand before the last chapter was inspired with John .. The unseen place of God. Abraham's Bosom .The Holy place of His glory. It will be seen on the last day in the new heavens and earth then there will be no night.

We walk by faith the unseen eternal not after the things seen the temporal

Peter quotes Joel regarding the outpouring of the Spirit 'your old men shall dream dreams as a vision of all nations. That was possible up until the last words ending with a warning and 7 seals that were given to John .Everyone dreams everyday . Why go above that which is written. What's the hope?

 

[Noose]

You the Bible actually contradicts your theory.

1. Miracles were never the sole domain of the apostles.

Moses did miracles before the twelve apostles were born. When the apostles were travelling with Jesus, they rebuked some men who were not a part of their group for doing miracles. Jesus corrected them. Even before the ascension, there were men doing miracles who were not apostles.

And Stephen and Philip (the evangelist not the apostle) did miracles. They weren't numbered among the twelve, yet did miracles. Paul lists the working of miracles among the gifts of the Spirit while addressing his formerly pagan audience. Toward the end of the chapter, he gives a list of gifts/ministries which starts with 'first apostles' and includes 'miracles' as a separate ministry from apostles.

I never said Apostleship is all about miracles but miracles approved an apostle.
And:

Heb 2: 3how shall we escape if we ignore so great a salvation? This salvation, which was first announced by the Lord, was confirmed to us by those who heard him. 4God also testified to it by signs, wonders and various miracles, and by gifts of the Holy Spirit distributed according to his will.

This is the sequence:
1. Salvation announced by the Lord,
2. confirmed by those who heard Him- one mark of an apostle was that they were appointed by Jesus and were taught of Jesus.
3. During the confirmation by the apostles, God testified to it by signs and gifts- this is the purpose for signs and gifts

4. After those that heard our Lord, we have the canon. Through the canon, we today are able to hear from those that heard from the Lord (apostles)- God does not testify to the canon through signs and gifts anymore.

 

[presidente]

I never said Apostleship is all about miracles but miracles approved an apostle.
And:

Heb 2: 3how shall we escape if we ignore so great a salvation? This salvation, which was first announced by the Lord, was confirmed to us by those who heard him. 4God also testified to it by signs, wonders and various miracles, and by gifts of the Holy Spirit distributed according to his will.

This is the sequence:
1. Salvation announced by the Lord,
2. confirmed by those who heard Him- one mark of an apostle was that they were appointed by Jesus and were taught of Jesus.
3. During the confirmation by the apostles, God testified to it by signs and gifts- this is the purpose for signs and gifts

4. After those that heard our Lord, we have the canon. Through the canon, we today are able to hear from those that heard from the Lord (apostles)- God does not testify to the canon through signs and gifts anymore.

This is faulty reasoning. We also read that apostles and the Lord partook of the cup at the Lord supper.

I could use the same reasoning and argue that the purpose of cups is for the Lord and apostles to drink out of them, and that therefore anyone who drinks from a cup is an apostle or if that if one is not an apostle he may not drink of a cup.

Hebrews 2:3:4 does not say this was limited to the apostles, btw, or that only those who heard the Lord would ever do miracles. You should not try to read into the verses things that they do not say, ideas that other scriptures disprove.

Moses did miracles. Some men who did not follow with the apostles did miracles. Stephen and Philip did miracles. The gift of the working of miracles was among the types of gifts that former pagan Christians might have, among the gifts given as the Spirit wills in I Corinthians 12. And the apostles did miracles, too. But it is clearly unbiblical to argue that the sole purpose of miracles was to confirm the apostles.

Jesus told us the purpose...or at least a purpose... of healing the man lowered through the roof, 'that ye might know that the Son of Man hath power on earth to forgive sins.'

If you were to say that 'the purpose'... as in the sole purpose of Jesus' healings and miracles were for God to bear witness of Him as the Son, that would be false. You can show from scripture that miracles were for the Father to bear witness to the Son. But there are plenty of other scriptures that show other purposes for miracles and healings.

There are other purposes for healing and miracles we should consider based on scripture, in addition to bearing witness to Christ, the apostles, and the message.
- So that the person can be healed or the need met through the miracle.
- So that men might glorify God.
- A means of edification of the body of Christ.
- So that Christ might be expressed through His body.
- God's will for His purposes, which we may not always understand at the moment.

What you present is faulty logic, but it is common from cessationists, even those who have masters degrees on the subject... quote a verse showing a purpose of miracles and write as if there were only one purpose for miracles. Cessationists usually do not quote the scriptures that contradict their point of view when they do this. It's odd to me that so many of them have this blind spot, and one wonders why these others scriptures do not come to mind when they make their arguments.