Is conspiracy, 'Mark of the Beast,' an unhealthy obsession for Christians?

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Moses_Young

Moses_Young

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#81
Sep 15, 2019
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#81
JamOn said:
satan isn’t playing by rules, installing a chip at birth wouldn’t be forced, a lot of children are circumcised by the parents at the hospital the child has no say in it, and if one day the chip is used like a SS number and installed by the parents the same can happen
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I agree. Parents are pressured into getting their children vaccinated for what is essentially a junkie disease (hepatitis) on a child's first day of birth, and in an increasing number of jurisdictions, are denied tax benefits and financial support they would otherwise be entitled to from the government, if even one of many mandated vaccines are not administered.

While (male) circumcision has health benefits and poses no lasting damage, vaccines pose much greater health risks. Vaccines could in theory be used to inject a microchip which essentially allows control of a child's body and its functions.
 
A

Alertandawake

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Aug 20, 2017
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#82
Moses_Young said:
Vaccines could in theory be used to inject a microchip which essentially allows control of a child's body and its functions.
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I myself have wondered if a Mandated Vaccination Program could be the delivery and enforcement system of The Mark of The Beast. An implant to confirm who has and who has not been marked.

Thing is what is disturbing we are already seeing articles on the internet that people who refuse vaccines are losing their jobs.
 
Ahwatukee

Ahwatukee

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Mar 12, 2015
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#83
Alertandawake said:
I myself have wondered if a Mandated Vaccination Program could be the delivery and enforcement system of The Mark of The Beast. An implant to confirm who has and who has not been marked.

Thing is what is disturbing we are already seeing articles on the internet that people who refuse vaccines are losing their jobs.
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Good day Alertandawake!

I don't believe that there is going to be an "enforcement system." The mark is going to be that proverbial line being drawn in the sand. The way in which the false prophet will force the inhabitants of the earth to receive the mark, will be the removal of all the other forms of buying and selling, either by cash, check or debit and credit cards, leaving the mark as the only valid way of electronically buying and selling. The mark is going to replace all those other forms of buying and selling.

Keep in mind that, the receiving of the mark has to be conscious choice, so that each person will be making a personal choice to receive it or reject it. Those who reject it, will do so for the fear of God and to obtain eternal life. Those who receive it will do so to save their lives here and that because they will love their lives more than God. Those who reject the mark will not love their lives so much as to shrink away from death while keeping their testimony about Jesus and the word of God.

The forcing therefore, is the removal of all other methods of buying and selling, which will cause each individual to make their own conscious choice to either reject it or receive it.
 
KhedetOrthos

KhedetOrthos

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Dec 13, 2019
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The Mark of the Beast isn’t going to be some accidental thing that you can end up with without knowing about it.

Revelation 14 says ”And the third angel followed them, saying with a loud voice, If any man worship the beast and his image, and RECEIVE his mark in his forehead, or in his hand, The same shall drink of the wine of the wrath of God.”

It is a voluntary act of worship you engage in quite knowingly.
 
A

Alertandawake

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The only way I can think of how people accept the mark of the beast, and on a global scale that is, is through this very concept - Predictive Programming. The people will be psychologically conditioned to the point that once this thing becomes known, the people concerned will already be prepared to accept.
 
Ahwatukee

Ahwatukee

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#86
Mar 12, 2015
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#86
Alertandawake said:
The only way I can think of how people accept the mark of the beast, and on a global scale that is, is through this very concept - Predictive Programming. The people will be psychologically conditioned to the point that once this thing becomes known, the people concerned will already be prepared to accept.
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Hello Alertandawake,

The reason that people will accept the mark of the beast is already given right in the context, which is that "anyone who doesn't have the mark will not be able to buy or sell." To put it into perspective, anyone who does not have the mark will not be able to electronically credit or debit their bank accounts. The mark is the only way that people will be able to perform any kind of financial transactions. They would not be able to be apart of the monetary system. There is not going to be any mind control or Nano probes or anything like that, because receiving the mark would not be of their own volition.

The way in which the false prophet will "cause/force" the inhabitants of the earth to take it, is by making all other forms of buying and selling obsolete. Each individual must make a willful decision to receive it so that it is by their own admission. Therefore, there cannot be any kind of mind control involved. Else how could God rightfully judge a person if it was not by their own admission to receive.

This who thing goes back to what Jesus said, "Whoever tries to save his life will lose it, but whoever loses his life will preserve it." Those who will receive the mark will be trying to save their lives and will thereby lose eternal life, because they love their own lives more than God, willing to do whatever it takes to survive.
 
A

Alertandawake

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#87
Aug 20, 2017
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#87
See what I have seen so far today, the masses are actually prepared to accept this mark. Now let us look at this from a financial point of view. Now going by the theory that this mark is some kind of electronic implant (which would involved a hypodermic needle), such a implant could serve as a electronic marker, could give of some kind of unique signal that could allow someone with scanning equipment to see who has been marked and who has not (alternatively, the idea of a electronic marker of some kind could also be used to see who been immunized or inoculated)

Now if you try to convince people to transition from cash in the hand to a chip in the hand, people won't go for it. But what we see happening over the decades is we have gone from cash in the hand, cheques then came credit and debit cards, and now we have smartphone apps that can do payments over the phone, we have become conditioned to the point that paying for goods via electronic methods has become normal.

Society has been conditioned now to accept that these payment methods as being normal and a electronic implant in the context of electronic banking would be seen as a evolution from carrying a card in your wallet to carrying a card implanted into your hand. The fact we see people now willingly getting a implant for the purposes of commerce is further evidence we have been conditioned to accept this.

Of course the question does remain, in what manner will this "mark" be delivered? Will it start off as voluntary then made mandatory? Just something we have to pay attention.
 
Mii

Mii

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#88
Mar 23, 2019
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#88
What does voluntary even mean?

Consider the youth in proverbs 7 and begin with verse 5.


Is he at fault here? But...but I didn't know! I didn't do it on purpose...and to some that would look like "extenuating circumstances" in today's world.

Joseph ran though when confronted by this.

I really don't think it's going to be quite so simple as just "not volunteering". There are ways to coerce people into decisions that I guess most are unaware of. It is easy to see situations where people cave as though "they had no choice". What they really mean is they had "little choice".

Let us assume that Joseph knew he would be imprisoned due to false accusation for standing up for righteousness. Do you know many people (some that claim christianity) that would overlook him "taking the easy way" and apply grace to it?

Consider someone that has been distant from the Lord for some time. A person who is skeptical of all this in the first place, who is deeply entrenched and reliant on the world system. Perhaps an invalid? Or perhaps someone that has worked their entire life for some private dream of a comfortable retirement. Now all their money is wrapped up in "inaccessible wealth".

Sure, to many here "it's just money" or just "disability" or just "social assistance".

Are we so confident that every believer (or truth seeker) is ready to live like an outlaw? How many (outside films) even know how to do such a thing?



A lot of people are so sure that they won't have any issue with not accepting the mark and in my view that is "lacking understanding". Sure I can feast on the world system as much as I want without compunction...it's simple though, when the "mark" is offered. I'm out. (Sarcasm).

Friendship with the world is enmity with God. We can't just dine on delicacies but then draw a line in the sand on this issue.



This isn't said to any one person in particular, it's an overall observation. Harlotry starts with baby steps, then eventually strides, then sometimes you get swept along in a crowd or trampled. In the heat of the moment, MANY would justify not getting trampled as having "no other choice". The word is clear however.
 
Ahwatukee

Ahwatukee

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Mar 12, 2015
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#89
Alertandawake said:
See what I have seen so far today, the masses are actually prepared to accept this mark. Now let us look at this from a financial point of view. Now going by the theory that this mark is some kind of electronic implant (which would involved a hypodermic needle), such a implant could serve as a electronic marker, could give of some kind of unique signal that could allow someone with scanning equipment to see who has been marked and who has not (alternatively, the idea of a electronic marker of some kind could also be used to see who been immunized or inoculated)

Now if you try to convince people to transition from cash in the hand to a chip in the hand, people won't go for it.
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Why would people not go for it if without the mark they wouldn't be able to pay their debts, buy food, gas, pay mortgages/rent etc.? There is going to be no need for convincing people to receive it, but will be a simple matter of survival.

Receive the mark = continue to buy and sell.
Reject the mark = no longer able to buy and sell.

Everyone will know that the receiving of the mark will be against God. And they will know what the consequences will be because that angel in Revelation 14 is going to announce it to every nation and tribe and language and people.

Furthermore, the current technology is a chip the size of a grain of rice, but I believe this will evolve into something more applicable.

But what we see happening over the decades is we have gone from cash in the hand, cheques then came credit and debit cards, and now we have smartphone apps that can do payments over the phone, we have become conditioned to the point that paying for goods via electronic methods has become normal.

Society has been conditioned now to accept that these payment methods as being normal and a electronic implant in the context of electronic banking would be seen as a evolution from carrying a card in your wallet to carrying a card implanted into your hand. The fact we see people now willingly getting a implant for the purposes of commerce is further evidence we have been conditioned to accept this.

Of course the question does remain, in what manner will this "mark" be delivered? Will it start off as voluntary then made mandatory? Just something we have to pay attention.
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To answer your question, I believe that the technology for the mark will continue to evolve and people will continue to embrace this technology. I believe that body tattooing and piercing will make receiving a device in the body transparent, even welcomed. And that out of convenience.

I believe that as this technology goes on, more and more people with receive it and use it up until that Antichrist establishes his seven year agreement with Israel. And during that first 3 1/2 years the system of the mark will really ramp up, where in the middle of that seven years it will then become mandatory.

The good thing is that we, believers in Christ, will not be on the earth when this mark becomes mandatory. We will however continue to see its evolution right up until the resurrection takes place and the living are changed and caught up. It is the great tribulation saints who will be here and who will not worship the beast, his image, nor receive his mark, with many of them being killed for their testimony of Jesus and the word of God.
 
A

Alertandawake

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Concerning the financial side of things, the electronic banking system, this is one reason why this concept had to be introduced slowly, not go from cash in hand then directly to a chip in hand. The system has been done slowly, in gradual steps, so people can get used to idea. The young generation of today, because they were already born in the age of electronic banking, it stands to reason many will be quick to accept a electronic implant. That is my opinion anyways
 
Elihoenai

Elihoenai

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Nov 8, 2019
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#91
Curious-mindedUK said:
Jesus said, in the last days that people would be knowledge hunters. Is Conspiracy theory an unhealthy obsession for Christians?
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Proverbs 2:14 King James Version (KJV)

14 Who rejoice to do evil, and delight in the frowardness of the wicked;


NO! NO! Your question is incorrect.

Conspiracy is Fact and not theory. It is the very nature of the Natural/Carnal Man to Conspire continually to do Evil and this is evidenced by history. And these Satanic/Demonic Men organise in very Powerful secretive groups to produce and implement their Evil Devices .

It is the Joyful Work and Proud Duty of the Followers of Messiah/Christ to expose the Filthy Satanic/Demonic Liars that are Wonderfully Deceiving Billions of people.


conspire

verb (used without object), con·spired, con·spir·ing.
to agree together, especially secretly, to do something wrong, evil, or illegal:
They conspired to kill the king.
to act or work together toward the same result or goal.

verb (used with object), con·spired, con·spir·ing.
to plot (something wrong, evil, or illegal).

https://www.dictionary.com/browse/conspire
 
tanakh

tanakh

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Dec 1, 2015
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#92
I find it strange that the people who mainly bang on about the mark of the beast and tribulation topics generally are the same people who confidently expect to be raptured before the tribulation starts.
 
massorite

massorite

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Jan 3, 2015
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Shc said:
thank you for your very valuable insight....." many of those in Christ don't even understand where we are in regards to end-time events" I can relate to that statement.
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Ahwatukee said:
Good day FullyLoved,

While it is true that the mark will not become manditory as the only way of electronic buying and selling until the middle of that seven years, the technology for it has already been revealed and is already in place.

Currently when making purchases, people swipe their cards or provide a cell phone bank app or some other device for electronic crediting and debiting, which the mark will eventually replace. Since 2015 we have already seen the use of the RFID chip implants under the skin of the hand, which will continue to evolve into something more applicable. I believe that the world explosion of tattooing and body piercing is meant to desensitize people to the coming mark on/in the hand or forehead. Since we are already seeing this technology, along with all of the other end-time signs, it reveals how close we are to the church being gathered, since we must be removed prior to the time period of God's wrath and the reign of the beast.



The mark will have nothing to do with DNA change, anymore than making purchases by swiping a debit card would. The receiving of the mark will be a willful, purposeful decision by each individual. To be clear, it can't be something that an individual has no control over because it would not be received by their own decision. In addition, scripture states that those whose names that were not written in the book of life from before the world began, will be those who will worship the beast, his image and receive his mark. So it cannot have anything to do with DNA change, but must be a willful decision on the individuals part.

One of the other reasons that they will receive the mark will be because without it they will not be able to buy or sell, which means that they would not be able to be apart of the electronic crediting and debiting system without the mark. Without it they will not be able to pay their rent/mortgage, buy food, pay bills, gas, etc. Without it they will not be able to even have a job or be apart of the world financial system because all financial transactions will be done via that mark. That said, they will seek to save their own lives more than God and in the process lose eternal life.



Those currently in Christ will not even see the antichrist nor be exposed to his mark, because the church will removed prior to that time period. Those in Christ who will be here during that time, will be those who did not believe in Christ prior to the gathering of the church known as the great tribulation saints, but will become believers after the church has been gathered and during the time of God's wrath and the beasts reign. They will not worship the beast, his image nor receive his mark, but will keep the testimony of Jesus and the word of God with many of them being killed for their faith. Regarding the mark, I personally believe that it will be physical but hidden under the skin of the hand or the forehead. However, it is possible that it could end up as a circuit board tattoo or something similar which would be place on the top of the skin, the end result being to be able to electronically credit and debit ones bank account.

Regarding the seal in the forehead, this will be only be for those 144,000 from the twelve tribes of Israel. This seal is not the same as the sealing of the church with the Holy Spirit, but will be a literal seal on the forehead and as previously stated will only for the 144,000. This means that everyone else on the earth during that time will be exposed to this time of torment, as well as the rest of the seals, trumpets and bowl judgments.

https://www.bing.com/videos/search?...C5293894ECC971F10B69C5293894ECC971F&FORM=VIRE
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Those currently in Christ will not even see the antichrist nor be exposed to his mark, because the church will removed prior to that time period.
Scripture says your wrong.
2Th 2:1 Now we beseech you, brethren, by the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, and by our gathering together unto him,
2Th 2:2 That ye be not soon shaken in mind, or be troubled, neither by spirit, nor by word, nor by letter as from us, as that the day of Christ is at hand.
Both verses 1 and 2 are about Resurrection day. Verse 1- "and by our gatering together unto him"
Verse 2-"as that the day of Christ is at hand" and then verse 3 and 4 say ,
2Th 2:3 Let no man deceive you by any means: FOR THAT DAY SHALL NOT COME, except there come a falling away first, and that MAN OF SIN BE REVEALED THE SON OF PERDITION;
2Th 2:4 Who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped; so that he as God sitteth in the temple of God, shewing himself that he is God.
Clearly verse 3 is stating that Christ will not return until there is a create departure from the faith (the falling away). Verse 3 also clearly states that the "ANTICHRIST IS REVEALED" (man of sin) before the return of Christ.
We are not going anywhere until the antichrist is on the world scene doing what is he does best which is tormenting the people of God. We will see the antichrist and we will suffer a period of great tribulation BEFORE the return of Christ.
There are many scriptures that contradict the notion of a Pre-Trib resurrection but 2 Thess 2:1-4 are the clearest.
Folks like to say "But God wouldn't do that to us. Wrong again. God already allowed great tribulation/persecution to inflict the early church when millions of believers were murdered in so many horrific ways in the name of Christ, and the persecutions went on for over 300 years. What makes us so much better then those who have already suffered persecution and died already?? What about those who are being tortured and killed in this day and time all over the world??? Are we better then them so that We will never be tortured and murdered because Christ is going to remove us?? Why doesn't Christ remove those believers who ARE ALREADY BEING TORTURED AND MURDERED THIS VERY DAY before they go through such suffering??? What does Paul say about tribulation??
James 1:2 "Consider it pure joy, my brothers and sisters,[a] whenever you face trials of many kinds, 3 because you know that the testing of your faith produces perseverance."
Verse 2 is speaking about being persecuted for the Gospel and how we should embrace and count it as joy to be tortured and killed in the name of Christ.
Rom 8:36 As it is written, For thy sake we are killed all the day long; we are accounted as sheep for the slaughter. What does Romans 8:36 say?? "WE ARE KILLED ALL DAY LONG". Why would God allow the early church to be killed all day long but not us??
How does Jesus feel about those who die in His name? Scripture tells us how Jesus feels about those who are persecuted unto their death.
Act 7:55 But he, being full of the Holy Ghost, looked up stedfastly into heaven, and saw the glory of God, and Jesus standing on the right hand of God,
Act 7:56 And said, Behold, I see the heavens opened, and the Son of man standing on the right hand of God.
In these two above verses there is a nuget that most people don't see or over look it.
In verses 55 and 56 we are told that Christ is STANDING at/on the right hand of God. Christ is giving Stephen a STANDING OVATION for Stephens faith, steadfastness, commitment and dying in the name of Christ. IT IS THE ONLY PLACE CHRIST IS RECORDED STANDING AT THE RIGHT HAND OF GOD in all of scripture. Everywhere else in scripture Christ is sitting at the right hand of God.
The word "Tribulation" means "Afflictions" and the word "Wrath" means "Punishment"
There is no such a thing as 7 years of the wrath of God written anywhere in the Bible, nor is there anywhere in the Bible where it says that there will be 7 years of Tribulation. It is true that we are not appointed to suffer the wrath of God but we are appointed to suffer tribulations in the name of Christ just like Stephen and millions more who have already suffered great Tribulation and died at the hands of tormentors. We should also remember that Great Tribulation brings on Great Revival and an out pouring of the Holy Spirit.
 
Blade

Blade

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Nov 19, 2019
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1st I look, expect my Father to keep His promises. The OT alone.. oh so FULL of the best that is yet to come.

I always wonder why some get stuck or keep talking about the MARK! Well I mean what happens before that? Are they not ALL told to worship the beast? And if they don't what happens? Yeah.. if you worship the beast your lost. Not like.. well you did 1 out of 2.. your ok!

And they know what they are saying YES to and NO to. No guessing no wondering. Just like Satan. He knew what he was saying no to.
 
A

Alertandawake

Senior Member
#95
Aug 20, 2017
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#95
tanakh said:
I find it strange that the people who mainly bang on about the mark of the beast and tribulation topics generally are the same people who confidently expect to be raptured before the tribulation starts.
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Stands to reason if the people then who expect to be raptured don't, guess they may be in for a shock.
 
Ahwatukee

Ahwatukee

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#96
Mar 12, 2015
11,159
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#96
massorite said:
Those currently in Christ will not even see the antichrist nor be exposed to his mark, because the church will removed prior to that time period.
Scripture says your wrong.
2Th 2:1 Now we beseech you, brethren, by the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, and by our gathering together unto him,
2Th 2:2 That ye be not soon shaken in mind, or be troubled, neither by spirit, nor by word, nor by letter as from us, as that the day of Christ is at hand.
Both verses 1 and 2 are about Resurrection day. Verse 1- "and by our gatering together unto him"
Verse 2-"as that the day of Christ is at hand" and then verse 3 and 4 say ,
2Th 2:3 Let no man deceive you by any means: FOR THAT DAY SHALL NOT COME, except there come a falling away first, and that MAN OF SIN BE REVEALED THE SON OF PERDITION;
2Th 2:4 Who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped; so that he as God sitteth in the temple of God, shewing himself that he is God.
Clearly verse 3 is stating that Christ will not return until there is a create departure from the faith (the falling away). Verse 3 also clearly states that the "ANTICHRIST IS REVEALED" (man of sin) before the return of Christ.
We are not going anywhere until the antichrist is on the world scene doing what is he does best which is tormenting the people of God. We will see the antichrist and we will suffer a period of great tribulation BEFORE the return of Christ.
There are many scriptures that contradict the notion of a Pre-Trib resurrection but 2 Thess 2:1-4 are the clearest.
Folks like to say "But God wouldn't do that to us. Wrong again. God already allowed great tribulation/persecution to inflict the early church when millions of believers were murdered in so many horrific ways in the name of Christ, and the persecutions went on for over 300 years. What makes us so much better then those who have already suffered persecution and died already?? What about those who are being tortured and killed in this day and time all over the world??? Are we better then them so that We will never be tortured and murdered because Christ is going to remove us?? Why doesn't Christ remove those believers who ARE ALREADY BEING TORTURED AND MURDERED THIS VERY DAY before they go through such suffering??? What does Paul say about tribulation??
James 1:2 "Consider it pure joy, my brothers and sisters,[a] whenever you face trials of many kinds, 3 because you know that the testing of your faith produces perseverance."
Verse 2 is speaking about being persecuted for the Gospel and how we should embrace and count it as joy to be tortured and killed in the name of Christ.
Rom 8:36 As it is written, For thy sake we are killed all the day long; we are accounted as sheep for the slaughter. What does Romans 8:36 say?? "WE ARE KILLED ALL DAY LONG". Why would God allow the early church to be killed all day long but not us??
How does Jesus feel about those who die in His name? Scripture tells us how Jesus feels about those who are persecuted unto their death.
Act 7:55 But he, being full of the Holy Ghost, looked up stedfastly into heaven, and saw the glory of God, and Jesus standing on the right hand of God,
Act 7:56 And said, Behold, I see the heavens opened, and the Son of man standing on the right hand of God.
In these two above verses there is a nuget that most people don't see or over look it.
In verses 55 and 56 we are told that Christ is STANDING at/on the right hand of God. Christ is giving Stephen a STANDING OVATION for Stephens faith, steadfastness, commitment and dying in the name of Christ. IT IS THE ONLY PLACE CHRIST IS RECORDED STANDING AT THE RIGHT HAND OF GOD in all of scripture. Everywhere else in scripture Christ is sitting at the right hand of God.
The word "Tribulation" means "Afflictions" and the word "Wrath" means "Punishment"
There is no such a thing as 7 years of the wrath of God written anywhere in the Bible, nor is there anywhere in the Bible where it says that there will be 7 years of Tribulation. It is true that we are not appointed to suffer the wrath of God but we are appointed to suffer tribulations in the name of Christ just like Stephen and millions more who have already suffered great Tribulation and died at the hands of tormentors. We should also remember that Great Tribulation brings on Great Revival and an out pouring of the Holy Spirit.
Click to expand...
There is no such a thing as 7 years of the wrath of God written anywhere in the Bible, nor is there anywhere in the Bible where it says that there will be 7 years of Tribulation.
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By your statement above that there is nowhere in the Bible that mentions 7 years of wrath or tribulation, it tells me that you have a lot of studying to do. The seven years which is divided into two 3 1/2 year periods, is not only found in Daniel 9:24-27, but is also listed in the book of Revelation as 1260 days, a time, times and half a time and as 42 months, each of them equaling 3 1/2 years. Therefore, there is such a thing a 7 years of wrath and it is written in the Bible, because that is where I got it from. We of course understand the seven years from Daniel 9:24-27, with seventy sevens as being seven sets of seven years or 490 years).

7 sevens (49 years)= restore and rebuild Jerusalem (Read Nehemiah)

62 sevens (434) = at the end of which the Messiah would be cut off (Christ crucified), which would bring it to 69 sevens or 483 years

The seventieth seven or last seven years will be fulfilled in conjunction with the Lord's return to the earth to end the age and establish His millennial kingdom. Regarding that seven years, that ruler, the antichrist, will establish a covenant/pact with Israel which will allow them to rebuild their temple for sacrifice and worship. In the middle of that seven years, he will cause the sacrifices and offerings to cease and he will set up that abomination in the holy place within the temple which will cause the desolation of Judea (Dan.9:27, Matt.24:15 and Rev.12:6, 14).

During the entire seven year period, God's wrath via the seals, trumpets and bowl judgments will be poured out upon the entire earth, which is the fulfillment of the Day of the Lord.

Jesus said, "I will build My church and the gates of Hades shall not prevail against it." Once Christ was crucified, God put a hold on the last seven years which was decreed upon Israel and Jerusalem and began to build His church, which is still in the process of being built. Once the church has been completed, the Lord will call up His church and will be taken back to the Father's house to those places that Jesus went to prepare for us according to His promise in John 14:1-3. Once that takes place, God will pick up right where He left off with Israel in fulfillment of that last seven years, leading up to the Lord's return to the earth to end the age and establish His millennial kingdom, as well as pouring out His wrath upon a Christ rejecting world.

It is true that we are not appointed to suffer the wrath of God but we are appointed to suffer tribulations in the name of Christ just like Stephen and millions more who have already suffered great Tribulation and died at the hands of tormentors. We should also remember that Great Tribulation brings on Great Revival and an out pouring of the Holy Spirit.
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Yes, you are correct, believers are not appointed to suffer God's coming wrath or any wrath. And that because Jesus already suffered God's wrath that every believer deserves, satisfying it completely.

It is a matter of understanding that the trials and tribulations that Jesus said believers would experience, is not the same as God's wrath which is going to come upon the whole earth. It is the latter that believers are not appointed to suffer. Regarding this, in your example above, neither Stephen, nor the first century church, nor those who are currently suffering are experiencing the wrath of God, but the trials and tribulations which come at the hands of mankind and the powers of darkness. In opposition, the coming wrath of God via the seals, trumpets and bowl judgments, will be directly from God for the purpose of punishment. By the time the Lord returns to the earth, the majority of the earths population will have been decimated and all human government dismantled.

Since the seals, trumpets and bowl judgments (including the plagues of the two witnesses) make up the wrath of God, then the church must be removed prior to the first seal being opened, which initiates the wrath of God.
 
Ahwatukee

Ahwatukee

Senior Member
#97
Mar 12, 2015
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#97
massorite said:
Those currently in Christ will not even see the antichrist nor be exposed to his mark, because the church will removed prior to that time period.
Scripture says your wrong.
2Th 2:1 Now we beseech you, brethren, by the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, and by our gathering together unto him,
2Th 2:2 That ye be not soon shaken in mind, or be troubled, neither by spirit, nor by word, nor by letter as from us, as that the day of Christ is at hand.
Both verses 1 and 2 are about Resurrection day. Verse 1- "and by our gatering together unto him"
Verse 2-"as that the day of Christ is at hand" and then verse 3 and 4 say ,
2Th 2:3 Let no man deceive you by any means: FOR THAT DAY SHALL NOT COME, except there come a falling away first, and that MAN OF SIN BE REVEALED THE SON OF PERDITION;
2Th 2:4 Who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped; so that he as God sitteth in the temple of God, shewing himself that he is God.
Clearly verse 3 is stating that Christ will not return until there is a create departure from the faith (the falling away). Verse 3 also clearly states that the "ANTICHRIST IS REVEALED" (man of sin) before the return of Christ.
We are not going anywhere until the antichrist is on the world scene doing what is he does best which is tormenting the people of God. We will see the antichrist and we will suffer a period of great tribulation BEFORE the return of Christ.
There are many scriptures that contradict the notion of a Pre-Trib resurrection but 2 Thess 2:1-4 are the clearest.
Folks like to say "But God wouldn't do that to us. Wrong again. God already allowed great tribulation/persecution to inflict the early church when millions of believers were murdered in so many horrific ways in the name of Christ, and the persecutions went on for over 300 years. What makes us so much better then those who have already suffered persecution and died already?? What about those who are being tortured and killed in this day and time all over the world??? Are we better then them so that We will never be tortured and murdered because Christ is going to remove us?? Why doesn't Christ remove those believers who ARE ALREADY BEING TORTURED AND MURDERED THIS VERY DAY before they go through such suffering??? What does Paul say about tribulation??
James 1:2 "Consider it pure joy, my brothers and sisters,[a] whenever you face trials of many kinds, 3 because you know that the testing of your faith produces perseverance."
Verse 2 is speaking about being persecuted for the Gospel and how we should embrace and count it as joy to be tortured and killed in the name of Christ.
Rom 8:36 As it is written, For thy sake we are killed all the day long; we are accounted as sheep for the slaughter. What does Romans 8:36 say?? "WE ARE KILLED ALL DAY LONG". Why would God allow the early church to be killed all day long but not us??
How does Jesus feel about those who die in His name? Scripture tells us how Jesus feels about those who are persecuted unto their death.
Act 7:55 But he, being full of the Holy Ghost, looked up stedfastly into heaven, and saw the glory of God, and Jesus standing on the right hand of God,
Act 7:56 And said, Behold, I see the heavens opened, and the Son of man standing on the right hand of God.
In these two above verses there is a nuget that most people don't see or over look it.
In verses 55 and 56 we are told that Christ is STANDING at/on the right hand of God. Christ is giving Stephen a STANDING OVATION for Stephens faith, steadfastness, commitment and dying in the name of Christ. IT IS THE ONLY PLACE CHRIST IS RECORDED STANDING AT THE RIGHT HAND OF GOD in all of scripture. Everywhere else in scripture Christ is sitting at the right hand of God.
The word "Tribulation" means "Afflictions" and the word "Wrath" means "Punishment"
There is no such a thing as 7 years of the wrath of God written anywhere in the Bible, nor is there anywhere in the Bible where it says that there will be 7 years of Tribulation. It is true that we are not appointed to suffer the wrath of God but we are appointed to suffer tribulations in the name of Christ just like Stephen and millions more who have already suffered great Tribulation and died at the hands of tormentors. We should also remember that Great Tribulation brings on Great Revival and an out pouring of the Holy Spirit.
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Regarding the following:

========================
Now concerning the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ and our being gathered together to Him, we ask you, brothers, 2not to be easily disconcerted or alarmed by any spirit or message or letter seeming to be from us, alleging that the Day of the Lord has already come. 3Let no one deceive you in any way, for that day will not come until the rebellion occurs and the man of lawlessness—the son of destruction—is revealed. 4He will oppose and exalt himself above every so-called god or object of worship. So he will seat himself in the temple of God, proclaiming himself to be God.

The reason that you and others err with your interpretation, is because you fail to recognize the difference between:

* The coming of our Lord and our being gathered to Him

VS.

* The Day of the Lord

The scripture above is not saying "not to be easily disconcerted or alarmed by any spirit or message or letter seeming to be from us, alleging that the coming of our Lord and our being gathered to Him has already come." It is saying "not to be easily disconcerted or alarmed by any spirit or message or letter seeming to be from us, alleging that "the Day of the Lord" has already come."

The coming of our Lord and our being gathered to Him is the blessed hope, the catching up of the church, dead and living.

The Day of the Lord is what follows the gathering of the church which is the time of God's wrath and which will be carried out via the seals, trumpets and bowl judgments. You said "There is no such a thing as 7 years of the wrath of God written anywhere in the Bible, nor is there anywhere in the Bible where it says that there will be 7 years of Tribulation. Yes, Daniel and Revelation both speak about God's wrath and it being seven years in duration.

In Daniel 9:24 There was a decree of seventy sevens (seventy sets of seven years). Sixty nine of those seventy sevens were fulfilled when the Messiah was cut off which was Christ crucified. There remains then one set of seven years which has not yet been fulfilled, but will be in conjunction with the Lord's return to the earth to end the age. During that same seven years, God's wrath will be poured out via the seals, trumpets and bowl judgments. And because believers are not appointed to suffer God's wrath, then the church must be gathered removed from the earth prior to the opening of the first seal.

It is true that we are not appointed to suffer the wrath of God but we are appointed to suffer tribulations in the name of Christ just like Stephen and millions more who have already suffered great Tribulation and died at the hands of tormentors. We should also remember that Great Tribulation brings on Great Revival and an out pouring of the Holy Spirit.
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Your error is that you are not recognizing that there is a difference between the common trials and tribulations that Jesus said believers would suffer vs. the coming unprecedented wrath of God.

To be clear, Neither Stephan, nor Paul nor Peter, nor any of the first century believers nor any of those suffering currently, experienced the wrath of God. They all suffered trials and tribulations because of their faith in Jesus. However, God's wrath that is coming is different from those current trials and tribulations.

Trials and tribulations = Come at the hands of men and the powers of darkeness

God's coming wrath = Will come upon the whole world to fulfill the prophesies of Israel and to punish a Christ rejecting world

God's coming wrath will be carried out via the seals, trumpets and bowl judgments, as well as the plagues that the two witnesses will bring. It is God's coming wrath that believers are not appointed to suffer. Therefore, church must be gathered and removed from the earth prior to the first seal being opened.

h
 
JamOn

JamOn

Banned
#98
Jun 10, 2019
4,304
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#98
Ahwatukee said:
Regarding the following:

========================
Now concerning the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ and our being gathered together to Him, we ask you, brothers, 2not to be easily disconcerted or alarmed by any spirit or message or letter seeming to be from us, alleging that the Day of the Lord has already come. 3Let no one deceive you in any way, for that day will not come until the rebellion occurs and the man of lawlessness—the son of destruction—is revealed. 4He will oppose and exalt himself above every so-called god or object of worship. So he will seat himself in the temple of God, proclaiming himself to be God.

The reason that you and others err with your interpretation, is because you fail to recognize the difference between:

* The coming of our Lord and our being gathered to Him

VS.

* The Day of the Lord

The scripture above is not saying "not to be easily disconcerted or alarmed by any spirit or message or letter seeming to be from us, alleging that the coming of our Lord and our being gathered to Him has already come." It is saying "not to be easily disconcerted or alarmed by any spirit or message or letter seeming to be from us, alleging that "the Day of the Lord" has already come."

The coming of our Lord and our being gathered to Him is the blessed hope, the catching up of the church, dead and living.

The Day of the Lord is what follows the gathering of the church which is the time of God's wrath and which will be carried out via the seals, trumpets and bowl judgments. You said "There is no such a thing as 7 years of the wrath of God written anywhere in the Bible, nor is there anywhere in the Bible where it says that there will be 7 years of Tribulation. Yes, Daniel and Revelation both speak about God's wrath and it being seven years in duration.

In Daniel 9:24 There was a decree of seventy sevens (seventy sets of seven years). Sixty nine of those seventy sevens were fulfilled when the Messiah was cut off which was Christ crucified. There remains then one set of seven years which has not yet been fulfilled, but will be in conjunction with the Lord's return to the earth to end the age. During that same seven years, God's wrath will be poured out via the seals, trumpets and bowl judgments. And because believers are not appointed to suffer God's wrath, then the church must be gathered removed from the earth prior to the opening of the first seal.



Your error is that you are not recognizing that there is a difference between the common trials and tribulations that Jesus said believers would suffer vs. the coming unprecedented wrath of God.

To be clear, Neither Stephan, nor Paul nor Peter, nor any of the first century believers nor any of those suffering currently, experienced the wrath of God. They all suffered trials and tribulations because of their faith in Jesus. However, God's wrath that is coming is different from those current trials and tribulations.

Trials and tribulations = Come at the hands of men and the powers of darkeness

God's coming wrath = Will come upon the whole world to fulfill the prophesies of Israel and to punish a Christ rejecting world

God's coming wrath will be carried out via the seals, trumpets and bowl judgments, as well as the plagues that the two witnesses will bring. It is God's coming wrath that believers are not appointed to suffer. Therefore, church must be gathered and removed from the earth prior to the first seal being opened.
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I’ve been reading into this of lately so far it appears to be spoken of in a few places here are some verses seems of the tribulation the chapter of each speak more on the tribulation it seems.

7 years tribulation then the new will be created.

Isaiah 66
…22“For just as the new heavens and the new earth, which I will make, will endure before Me,” declares the LORD, “so your descendants and your name will endure.

this seems similar to Job yet on a world wide scale

23From one New Moon to another and from one Sabbath to another, all mankind will come-to worship before Me,”says the LORD.
24“As they go forth, they will see the corpses of the men who have rebelled against Me; for their worm will never die, their fire will never be quenched, and they will be a horror to all mankind.

Ezekiel 39:9
Then those who dwell in the cities of Israel will go out, kindle fires, and burn the weapons--the bucklers and shields, the bows and arrows, the clubs and spears. For seven years they will use them for fuel.

Isaiah 34:3
Their slain will be left unburied, and the stench of their corpses will rise; the mountains will flow with their blood.
 
cv5

cv5

Well-known member
#99
Nov 20, 2018
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#99
tanakh said:
I find it strange that the people who mainly bang on about the mark of the beast and tribulation topics generally are the same people who confidently expect to be raptured before the tribulation starts.
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Those details will benefit the Tribulation Saints, who by faith and the power of the Holy Spirit, will understand the truth of the events of the 70th week. We make use of it in preaching warnings of the wrath to come so that some may repent and believe thereby avoiding these judgements.
 
cv5

cv5

Well-known member
#100
Nov 20, 2018
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#100
Alertandawake said:
Stands to reason if the people then who expect to be raptured don't, guess they may be in for a shock.
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Those who expect to be are fulfilling the command to do so and therefore be found worthy to receive this blessed assurance as the scripture hath said.
 
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