Rapture Top Dogs Admit no Proof Exists

None of those verses conflicts with pretrib rapture.
Some things are agreeable to both doctrines.

That my friend is beyond me.

There is a heaven and i am looking forward to being there.

Pilgrims progress,the entire book,is a christian and his walk ,headed to the celestial city/ heaven.

They don't conflict, they destroy rapture doctrine.
For example, consider this:

2 Cor 4:
12So then, death is at work in us, but life is at work in you.

13It is written: “I believed; therefore I have spoken.” b Since we have that same spirit of c faith, we also believe and therefore speak, 14because we know that the one who raised the Lord Jesus from the dead will also raise us with Jesus and present us with you to himself. 15All this is for your benefit, so that the grace that is reaching more and more people may cause thanksgiving to overflow to the glory of God.

1. Paul is talking about death and resurrection here just like in 1 Thess 4.
2. Paul is saying that the dead believers are raised with Jesus and presented together with the living (his listeners) for their benefit, same thing he said in 1 Thess 4 only that in 1 Thess 4 he put it differently (caught together in the air).


#A resurrection in 21st century and counting will not be of any benefit for Paul's listeners in the 1st century who Paul assured by way of writing. If it were so, then Paul should know that in 21st century (and counting), all his 1st century listeners are definitely be dead so there's no need of telling them that his death will benefit them.

#There's no way you'll get rapture in this context yet Paul is talking about the same thing as in 1 Thess 4. This is why i keep saying that rapture is a doctrine that came from misunderstanding the phrase "caught in the air". It doesn't mean flying off.

While you are marching to some unknown destination, God has been preparing His dwelling here on earth, in the hearts of men. So wherever you are going, God isn't there:

Rev 21:3And I heard a loud voice from the throne saying: “Behold, the dwelling place of God is with man, and He will dwell with them. They will be His people, and God Himself will be with them as their God.

This is the culmination of promise after promise:

Ezekiel 37:27
My dwelling place will be with them; I will be their God, and they will be My people.

neither stayed where they were.
Both were taken.
Both removed.

Both were spared

Both had help leaving

Both were removed before the judgement.

Postribs need a post Judgement deliverance.
They need Noah going up AFTER the flood.

The need Lot to stay and be protected in sodom. (No deliverance but a fireproof house like the 3 hebrews in the furnace)

It truly is a pretrib rapture as Jesus tells us in mat 24 "...BEFORE THE FLOOD..
one taken,one left"

Thank you Jesus!!!

Is 1 Thess 4 part of these rapture verses? Ok, pay attention.

1 Thess 4:
13Brothers, we do not want you to be uninformed about those who sleep in death,c so that you will not grieve like the rest, who are without hope. 14For since we believe that Jesus died and rose again, we also believe that God will bring with Jesus those who have fallen asleep in Him.

15By the word of the Lord, we declare to you that we who are alive and remain until the coming of the Lord will by no means precede those who have fallen asleep. 16For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a loud command, with the voice of an archangel, and with the trumpet of God, and the dead in Christ will be the first to rise. 17After that, we who are alive and remain will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And so we will always be with the Lord.

18Therefore encourage one another with these words.

1. God will raise Jesus and bring Him together with the dead in Christ
2. Paul is counting himself among those that are alive for he says "we who are alive..."
3. The risen dead are caught up together with Paul and the rest of the living

Now listen carefully to Paul again:

2 Cor 4:
10We always carry around in our body the death of Jesus, so that the life of Jesus may also be revealed in our body. 11For we who are alive are always being given over to death for Jesus’ sake, so that his life may also be revealed in our mortal body. 12So then, death is at work in us, but life is at work in you.

13It is written: “I believed; therefore I have spoken.” b Since we have that same spirit of c faith, we also believe and therefore speak, 14because we know that the one who raised the Lord Jesus from the dead will also raise us with Jesus and present us with you to himself. 15All this is for your benefit, so that the grace that is reaching more and more people may cause thanksgiving to overflow to the glory of God.

1. God who raised Jesus will also raise Paul and others and be presented with Jesus and those that are living
2. Paul is counting himself among the dead who will be raised
3. Risen Paul (and others) will be presented together with Jesus and his living listeners for their benefit.

Conclusion
1. Resurrection seems to be a continuous event rather than a single mega event. Paul once counts himself among the risen dead and in another place counts himself among the living

2. Caught in the air does not mean flying off rather the spirits of the risen dead indwelling the living for their benefit. Now, if the spirits of the dead saints rise to space, how will that benefit the living?
Peter puts it clearly how his dying will help his listeners (2 Pet 1:13-15)

One does not erase the other.

Jesus,Elijah,Enoch,the 2 witnesse....."flew off."

Rev 14
The 144k and the next group taken by Jesus in the clouds "fly off"

So will i

No no no
It says "as Jesus died and was risen then raptured"


For if we believe that Jesus
died and rose again, even so
them also which sleep in Jesus
will God bring with him

So we see the example of those dead IN CHRIST will follow that pattern.

You have them bypassing resurrection from the dead then taken up AS WAS JESUS.

And yet in 1 thes the dead are resurrected and RAPTURED ALIVE.

So stop with the false rearranging

Your deal is getting rediculous.

Jesus raptured alive
The 2 witnesses raptured alive
THE ENTIRE BODY OF CHRIST BOTH RESURRECTED AND THOSE OF US ALIVE...RAPTURED ALIVE

You should know attacking those you disagree with does not make you right. The only ridiculous thing is your assertions of your own understanding and no one else possibility of being correct. Unlike you, many here who do not agree with the pretrib "Rapture" will agree the coming of the Lord is eminent. Nor are this who disagree with pretrib rapture insulting those who agree with the pretrib position. No one has provided false arrangements, they have given what they see asa biblically supported stand on the Taking of the Church. If you were able to speak more respectfully one might hear what you have to say, even if they disagree.

You should know attacking those you disagree with does not make you right. The only ridiculous thing is your assertions of your own understanding and no one else possibility of being correct. Unlike you, many here who do not agree with the pretrib "Rapture" will agree the coming of the Lord is eminent. Nor are this who disagree with pretrib rapture insulting those who agree with the pretrib position. No one has provided false arrangements, they have given what they see asa biblically supported stand on the Taking of the Church. If you were able to speak more respectfully one might hear what you have to say, even if they disagree.

Pre-tribbers are not suggesting the Church which is His body "stays in heaven," but I have continually pointed out how we (the Church which is His body, of whom "the Rapture" SOLELY pertains) RETURNS *WITH [G4862]* Him, when HE "RETURNS" to the earth (as an ALREADY-WED "Bridegroom") FOR the promised and promised earthly Millennial Kingdom [not as its "Subjects"], aka "the wedding FEAST/SUPPER [on the earth]"...

IOW, "the Bride/Wife [SINGULAR]" (to whom "the MARRIAGE" itself pertains) is not "the Guests [PLURAL]," nor the "10 [nor even 5] Virgins/Bridesmaids [PLURAL]," nor "the Servants [plural; of that specific, limited (future) time period]" (to whom "the wedding FEAST/SUPPER" [aka the MK inauguration] pertains)... He is not returning/coming to MARRY the "10 [or 5] Virgins [PLURAL]"! (they enter the MK age [as "saints" having come to faith FOLLOWING our Rapture, IN/DURING the trib yrs] upon His "RETURN" there; see also Lk12:36-37,38,40-44 "when he will RETURN FROM the wedding..." THEN the meal!)

I don't believe ANY "saints" will be missing from the MK age... ALL will be present and accounted for... and only "saints" will ENTER it (at its commencement/starting point in time).

The question becomes... how long does "the Church which is His body" go up for, before His "RETURN" to the earth at Rev19 (I already provided the vid showing the manuscript evidence for Rev5:9 saying "US")

That's true, I find that a number of people here find it very difficult to just state their point of view when they are debating others. They always like to throw in all kinds of personal attacks, whether be it "you are twisting the scripture, you are saying you are very smart" and so on and so forth.

I think its because such behavior, where people attack you if they disagree with you, seems to be reinforced with likes here.

Thus, with such positive reinforcement, it will continue, much like how cyber bullying gets reinforced when the bullies saw that many other people are sharing/retweeting their posts

Since we are now policing one another i found your post of last tuesday gosh awful insulting
"I already quoted acts 21 and you use your vivid imagination to somehow conclude that James was merely putting on appearances for the Jews

Scripture is clearly not good enough for you"

I mean ,gee, can you tone it down please

Just joking,but it is getting a little weird now that the walking on eggshells is being invoked.

I don't regard that as a personal attack, and neither did the person I was responding to felt it. But of course, you are free to have your own opinions