The Doctrinal Belief of a Pre-Tribulation Resurrection. Is not spoken of in the Word of God. It was created by a sick and deranged woman

3 Let no one deceive you by any means; for that Day will not come unless the falling away comes first, and the man of sin is revealed, the son of perdition, 4 who opposes and exalts himself above all that is called God or that is worshiped, so that he sits as God in the temple of God, showing himself that he is God.

here is where and how the man of sin is revealed. Even jesus spoke of this as the sign, when you see the abomination of desolation spoken of by daniel....

Nope the third temple dilemma makes everything you're talking about null and void. When did God command us to build His third temple? When in open scripture did God command us to build a third temple the same way He commanded the first two built? He didn't? Just not yet? Well if that's the case then scripture is still open right, and all hasn't been revealed yet then? See the problem here? For God to have another temple on earth to be desolated in the future, (with no purpose btw because the purpose of the temple was completely fulfilled with Jesus finished work on the cross, that's why God came in judgement to remove it from the earth forever.) He needs to command it to be built, otherwise it's not His temple. So either scripture is closed without a command to rebuild the temple, ever, or scripture is still wide open and maybe some of these nut cases out here saying "God told me" might be telling the truth right? I really want to hear your answer for this, because without this third pointless temple, nothing you teach at all day in and out can possibly be true, and all this time you spend on this false pre-trib endtimes nonsense can be spent proclaiming His kingship and victory over everything, and sing the praises of His completed glory. Amen

See if this was the case, if it is built this way, it's NOT Gods temple and therefore cannot be desecrated. You can't desecrate a temple that is not His, even if you call it His. See what I mean? His temple has fulfilled it's purpose and judgment came in 70 ad when He took His temple off the earth. He now dwells in us. Never to go backwards, See how this all fits?

Jesus spoke of the AoD but that is at the MID-point... He ALSO spoke of its BEGINNING point way back in verse 4 where He'd used the word "[G5100] tis ['A CERTAIN ONE']" as the INITIAL "birth PANG" of many more "beginning of birth PANGS [plural]" that follow on from that FIRST ONE (and "the beginning of birth PANGS [PLURAL]" are the EQUIVALENT of the SEALS at the START of the [7-yr] trib).

As I mentioned, the 2Th2 passage covers ALL 7 YEARS [its BEGINNING, its MIDDLE, its END], JUST AS several other related sections of Scripture do likewise). You happened to pull out the MID-point (2Th2:4 "sitteth"), but that is not when "the man of sin be revealed". Many ppl suppose this to be the case, but I disagree (and have made a number of posts on that).

[see vv.7b-8a - "the one restraining, will restrain, UNTIL out of the midst he be come [come to be], AND THEN [kai tote] shall that Wicked be revealed" (this SEQUENCE is repeated 3x in this passage--I had made a post on that, with the color-coded thing... I may go try to find that later); and also v.9a "whose COMING/ADVENT/ARRIVAL/PRESENCE/PAROUSIA" of the man of sin (being parallel to the wording of Dan9:27a[26b]--with its reference to the "ONE WEEK [/7-yrs]"); and the fact that this 2Th2 passage is saying (in essence) that the time period (including "judgments"), involving the man of sin, will not be present "if not shall have come THE DEPARTURE *FIRST*" and (distinctly) "the man of sin BE REVEALED"...But when you align all of the RELATED PASSAGES, we see that this is the EQUIVALENT/SAME POINT IN TIME as SEAL #1 at the START of the 7-yr trib... not at its MIDDLE, as most suppose to true).

^ [also] 1 Thessalonians 5:2-3 the INITIAL "birth PANG [SINGULAR]" at the ARRIVAL of "the Day of the Lord" [earthly] TIME PERIOD (involving both JUDGMENTs [duration of time] and eventually BLESSINGs [duration of time]--a lengthy duration of time, altogether--ALL "earthly-located")


[so 2Th2:2-3 (and context) also concerns that Subject]

Apparently the ac along with the Jews get the temple built.

...not God.

If that's the case then it is NOT Gods temple but man's. This has no more authority than if I build a temple of Legos and call it "Gods temple", see my point here. The events in the bible concerning the end of the "AGE" clearly described God's temple being desolated, not an impostor temple. See the problem with what you're saying here? This is such a huge roadblock for this view of a future AOD that I'm really surprised I haven't heard it more often. Just because men today throw up a temple and call it Gods doesn't make it Gods. Even if they make it out of solid gold, for God to have a temple on earth again He must command it built and again I have to add that even if this is the case then that means God is not only speaking to us through the Son in this age
Heb 1:1-4
1 Long ago, at many times and in many ways, God spoke to our fathers by the prophets, 2 but in these last days he has spoken to us by his Son, whom he appointed the heir of all things, through whom also he created the world. 3 He is the radiance of the glory of God and the exact imprint of his nature, and he upholds the universe by the word of his power. After making purification for sins, he sat down at the right hand of the Majesty on high, 4 having become as much superior to angels as the name he has inherited is more excellent than theirs.

Is He now going to go back to speaking through prophets, or is Jesus, the one through who all these things the temple was pointing to fulfilled, going to order the temple built again for????

See what I'm talking about? The temple fulfilled it's purpose and is gone forever, for God to even order another temple built makes no sense at all. Why?

Most if not all 19th Century originators in this had dubious beliefs and backgrounds. In the UK Edward Irvin formed his own Church and was expelled from it because he announced the belief that Christ had a sin nature. He died poor and friendless in 18 The Pre Trib belief spread to the US via John Darby and his ''Disciple'' Cyrus Schofield. Schofield spread the teaching via the Moody Bible Institute and his Reference Bible. It was first published by Oxford University press in 1909. For more of Schofields background check him out on the internet.

My viewpoint is from the groom and bride perspective.

I have never put the temple under the microscope.

I see your concern. I don't see it as erasing the numerous impossibilities of anything but a pretrib rapture.

Just to note (for the readers), I had made a post in one of UWC's threads (I think it was) where I made the point that E. Irving was an "Historicist" (not "Pre-trib").

"Historicist" would be along the lines of [/similar to] what [member] GaryA espouses, if I recall correctly. Is that right, GaryA? (that "[The] Revelation" has been unfolding over time since the first century... [not the part about Christ and the sin nature... lol])[/Q

Yes, we've all heard the stories of those who claim that Darby, Mary and the others, who supposedly introduced the gathering of the church as taking place prior to the tribulation. All you are doing is repeating the false teachings of others!

I have never read anything by any of those people, but came to the conclusion from all related scriptures that the Lord is going to gather His church/bride prior to His wrath being pouring out which will be initiated by the first seal being opened.

Those who believe and teach that the Lord is going to keep His promise by first putting His bride through His wrath and then gathering them, are not truly believing that Jesus already experience God's wrath, satisfying it completely. Since this is the truth, then the wrath that all believers deserve has been satisfied. God's wrath no longer rests upon the believer and therefore, we cannot and will not go through the time of God's wrath. If that were to happen, then the wrath that Jesus experienced would have been for nothing.

The reason that many believe and claim that the church is going to be present on the earth during the time of God's wrath, is because they don't understand the principle of what I just explained above and they don't understand the severity and magnitude of God's coming wrath. With just the 4th seal and the 6th trumpet, over half of the earths population will have been killed within that first 3 1/2 years and that is not including the fatalities that will result from trumpets 1,2 and 3, nor the fatalities resulting from the bowl judgments. Jesus described what the condition of the world would be when He returns to the earth to end the age saying"

"there will be a time of great tribulation such as the world has not seen from the beginning of the world, until now and never to be equaled again. If those days had not be shortened, no one would be left alive.

The Lamb/Jesus, is the One who will be opening the seals, which leads into the trumpet judgments, followed by the bowl judgments. Therefore, it is Jesus who will be unleashing these plagues of wrath. And since that is the truth, then believers cannot be on the earth to experience that wrath.

Neither Darby, nor Mary MacDonald wrote the word of God and that is where we get the information, understanding God's nature, that believers in His Son are not appointed to suffer God's coming wrath which will be carried out via the seals, trumpets and bowl judgments.

Soon the Lord is going to appear in the air and with a loud command and with the voice of an archangel and the trumpet of God and is going to call up the dead and change the living, where the entire church, from beginning to end, will meet the Lord in the air. Then in fulfillment of John 14:1-3, He will take His church back to the Father's house to those places that He went to prepare for us, that where His we may be also.

My advise to you, is to stop believing and repeating the well known false teachings of men and stick with the written word of God.

I had never heard that Irving died poor and friendless. His congregation did not kick him out. I get the impression that he had a lot of friends. But his group did not believe in or teach pretrib. They considered themselves 'Millinearean' (sp?), but it did not seem to be the same sort of pre-mil as the pre-mil I am familiar with. Darby did not agree with this group and some of his teaching may have been reactionary against it.

I can understand why you think the "pre-trib" thing is all over, especially if raised in the church with it being presented as fact by all the brothers, sisters, and leaders God put over you. I really can, in fact my church breaks out the charts and teaches the same from time to time, but the so called "numerous impossibilities of anything but a pretrib rapture" I just don't see, and when taking any and everyone of those scriptures and reading them as they are, in context, they just do not mean what they say they mean, and again do not point to this idea at all, in my opinion. I do truly understand why people believe this, and I'm not trying to "take" anything from anyone concerning their faith, I'm just looking for truth, and don't you want to know the truth regardless of the cost? The reason I am zooming in on the temple like this is because if God's temple is not on earth, then none of these things in the bible concerning the judgement against the covenant breakers and the end of the age can be truth. It's vital and if scripture is truly closed then God hasn't ordered a temple built. It's key to everything pre-trib. That's why, but thank you so much for your respect and interaction. It's awesome!!!

He comes at the end of the tribulation, where the whole world sees him ascend and plant his feet on mount olives as it splits in two

the rapture is not seen in this light, it does not say anyone sees him at this time, only that the dead rise, then the living follow.

two events

Sorry for the misunderstanding. My intention was to supply you with only 5 posts I had made in that thread.

The first one (at link) was covering the definition of a word in 2Th2, where the Greek-English Lexicon [lexicons] has it defined as: "later form for apostasis" (then apo stasis - "a standing away from [a previous standing]" or "departure"--which includes a geographical/spatial 'departure').

I also went into the related word "stasis" (used in Heb9:8-9a), where 8 of its 9 occurrences mean something "negative" (like "insurrection," "a rebel, revolutionist." "dissension," and the like), but here in Heb9:8 does not carry that meaning at all.



There is no denying that there will indeed be "saints" existing IN/DURING the tribulation years.



Luke 21:23 is set in the context of the events surrounding 70ad (parallel to both Matt22:7 and Jesus' words in Lk19:41-44 He spoke on Palm Sunday [when He did Zech9:9]). That section of Lk21 (vv.12-24) are not speaking of the far-future tribulation period, but the near future events of 70ad.



This goes into ascertaining just what Seal #2 covers (early in the trib) , which I won't go into in this post.

But I had also shown a parallel in the wording between 2Th2:7-b-8a with that of Lamentations 2:3-4 (in its section of vv.1-7 with its "wrath words" and how He uses their "enemy [/enemies]" to inflict it).



Not every saint in the tribulation period (described in the passage above) will "die" (I had provided the example of Dan12:12 of "still-living" persons who will ENTER the kingdom as still-living... along with about 8-9 other "BLESSED" passages speaking to this point in the "chronology").



Me too. I tried to supply that very thing in my previous post (with the links). And a little in this post (at top).

Thank you for hearing me out. Have a blessed day.

So what is the order

A . Rapture, tribulation, second coming

Or
B. Tribulation, rapture, second coming

To Awatuki primarily

But the times and the seasons brethren, ye have no need that I write unto you
For you yourselves know perfectly that the day of the Lord so cometh like a thief
in the night. For when they shall say peace and safety, then sudden destruction
cometh upon them as travail upon a woman with child and they shall not escape
But you brethren are not in darkness that that day should overtake you as a thief
Ye are children of light and the children of the day we are not of the night nor of
darkness Therefore let us not sleep as do others but let us watch and be sober
For they that sleep sleep in the night and they that be drunken are drunken in
the night But let us who are of the day be sober putting on the breastplate of faith
and love and for a helmet the hope of salvation. For God has not appointed us to
wrath but to obtain salvation by our Lord Jesus Christ.

1 Thessalonians 5: 1-9 KJV

Behold the day of the Lord cometh cruel both with wrath and fierce anger
to lay the land desolate and he shall destroy the sinners thereof out of it
For the stars of heaven and the constellations thereof shall not give their
light the sun shall be darkened in his going forth and the moon shall not
cause her light to shine

Isaiah 13: 9 - 10 KJV

Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened
and the moon shall not give her light and the stars shall fall from heaven
and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken.

Matthew 24: 29 KJV

As you so often mention in your posts comparing scripture with scripture is very important when it comes to bible study.
So here are some scriptures I've compared. One of your main themes is the wrath of God ie Christians wont go through
the tribulation '' because we are not subject to Gods wrath''.

If you read Paul's passage in context you find he starts by talking about the day of the Lord
He tells his readers that they are Children of light and not of darkness. We are to watch and be sober
he goes on to say that we should have faith love and the hope of salvation because if we have these things
we will not be subject to Gods wrath.

When is the day of the Lord and the wrath of God? According to Jesus its after the tribulation period because he describes
that time in the same way as Isaiah. compare the verses. Both Jesus and Isaiah talk about the sun moon and stars. Isaiah
calls it the day of the Lord and of speaks of wrath of God.

Its obvious to me and possibly anyone else that taking these verses together that the day of the Lord and the wrath of God happens
after the tribulation period and not before. So are there Christians on earth during the tribulation period? According to Revelation
John saw the following...

After this I beheld and lo a great multitude which no man could number of all
nations and kindreds and people and tongues stood before the throne and
before the Lamb clothed with white robes and palms in their hands

Revelation 7: 9 KJV

And one of the elders answered saying unto me What are these
which are arrayed in white robes and whence came they? And I
said unto him Sir thou knowest And he said to me These are they
which came out of great tribulation and have washed their robes
and made them white with the blood of the Lamb.

Revelation 7:14 KJV

I remember several members of a church not agreeing of

Amen brother

To Awatuki primarily
[…] Behold the day of the Lord cometh cruel both with wrath and fierce anger
to lay the land desolate and he shall destroy the sinners thereof out of it
For the stars of heaven and the constellations thereof shall not give their
light the sun shall be darkened in his going forth and the moon shall not
cause her light to shine
Isaiah 13: 9 - 10 KJV

Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened
and the moon shall not give her light and the stars shall fall from heaven
and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken.
Matthew 24: 29 KJV
As you so often mention in your posts comparing scripture with scripture is very important when it comes to bible study.