If the Church Won't, the Government Will

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Princesse

Active member
#41
Feb 16, 2020
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#41
DesertWanderer said:
That's amazing! I am so glad to hear that you are doing that. It sounds like a real, authentic fellowship to me. Let us know how it goes so I can learn from that.
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I had a very large group of friends before I returned to God (50+). We connected frequently. I don’t have the gift of hospitality. Entertaining is very different. And I wouldn’t have a group of strangers. Familiarity would enabled deeper sharing and authenticity. Especially with those who may be ambivalent to faith. A warm environment and decorum are a must.

Religion inspires debates and arguments and I won’t have that in my home. This is one way of many to build connections.
 
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Princesse

Active member
#42
Feb 16, 2020
259
123
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#42
JohnR7 said:
We have been doing that for over 20 years. The house we have can easily handle 50 or 60 people. Up to 100 if they go outside during the summer. This was actually designed by an architect and there are quite a few conversation areas where groups of people can gather together to talk with each other. Sometimes we will pick someone out and give them or their kids special treatment if they have been going through a difficult time in their life. They usually come back and what this to go on forever but it is more of a one shot deal for one of the events. It may surprise us how many people there are that no one ever does anything special for them. Even just to buy them a cake or something for their birthday. My wife use to make a stew in the crock pot and it was really just for one person. But he really appreciated her cooking. Of course people will bring stuff to contribute. When my son graduated from High School we want out to the park. There were a lot of people there. Maybe 400 or 500. He was in the marching band so he had a lot of his friends there from that. The graduation gifts pretty much balance out what it cost to have an event like that. Although the money they gave him has always gone toward his tuition. He is real good with his money in that regard. It looks like he is going to graduate from college debt free. It can be a lot of work to organize these events but it is a lot of fun. Sort of like a potluck dinner at church. I know churches that have events like that at least once a month. This is a time for fellowship and for people getting to know each other.
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That’s hospitality in action. :)
 
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DesertWanderer

Active member
#43
Nov 17, 2019
366
201
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61
New Mexico, USA
#43
DesertWanderer said:
There are 168 hours in a week. Most churches utilize their building for only a few hours a week. Make it a goal to open it to the public at least three times what you do now.
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Nehemiah6 said:
The public is not interested in church buildings, unless it could be to vandalize it.
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I don't think that is the case at all. Most people are respectful.

Look at all the fall festivals taking place during Halloween. Beyond that, churches could open their doors for job fairs, family game night or community meetings and gatherings.
 
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kaylagrl

Guest
#44
#44
DesertWanderer said:
DesertWanderer said:


Sell your church building and give the money to the poor



Why would we have to do that? The early church didn't rely on the Romans to supply buildings for worship. In fact, they met in their homes and in secret places in order to hide from the government. We are not dependent on a hierarchy for support; neither from the state nor the church. We can meet with each other just fine without spending millions of dollars on buildings.
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I attend a small country church, and even though I have a two story home, I don't want them all in my house next Sunday thanks. We have buildings because of the amount of people attending. Our church gives generously to the poor, to unwed mothers and many other ministries and missions. In fact it's quite amazing how much they give and they are blessed in return. You want to meet at a home,no one is stopping you. Nothing wrong with having a church building.
 
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kaylagrl

Guest
#45
#45
DesertWanderer said:
You hear it in the sermons. Pastors literally discourage giving to the poor, because "these low-lifes did it to themselves." Instead, we are encouraged to give to a bloated building fund.



I know what Jesus gave-- everything. And he didn't have a $30 million net worth.
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Umm I don't know what type of church you are attending but I have never, ever, heard my pastor preach that. And I have attending literally hundreds of churches and have never heard a pastor preach that. So I'm thinking you have a chip on your shoulder. Yes, Jesus gave everything. Have you? Have you sold your home, your car. given up everything to evangelize?
 
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kaylagrl

Guest
#46
#46
DesertWanderer said:
We may even have enough left over to help that single mom sitting in the front pew listening to the pastor berate her week in and week out for not giving out of her poverty.
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You're awful judgmental of other Christians. Do you know what the Bible says about that?
 
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kaylagrl

Guest
#47
#47
EleventhHour said:
Again the early church was not practicing communism by any stretch of the imagination.

I cannot help it if people are so stupid to listen to pastors who make those absurd statements.

Yup Graham has made lots of money... Christian's are duped everyday.

However, socialism does not out an end to greed, so the basis of your argument is flawed.
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Socialism is greed, the very definition of greed. As Churchill once said "There are only two places where socialism works, in heaven, where it isn't needed or in hell, where they already have it."
 
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EleventhHour

Guest
#48
#48
kaylagrl said:
Socialism is greed, the very definition of greed. As Churchill once said "There are only two places where socialism works, in heaven, where it isn't needed or in hell, where they already have it."
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Yes I agree for the citizens who support it

..... as well, socialism a means by which government is able to exert tremendous control.... perfect set up for a slave state.
 
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EleventhHour

Guest
#49
#49
DesertWanderer said:
No, I am diametrically opposed to the idea of Christian communism, which eventually sets a mandate for wealth redistribution. In order to achieve the communal oneness the early church experienced, benevolence has to be from the heart of Christ who lives inside each one of us. It cannot be mandated by either the government or the church hierarchy. That has been my point all along.

As far as your book recommendation, it looks like a really good read. I will have to check it out. Thank you.
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The communal oneness of the early church was born out of necessity and persecution.

I do not see a need for that in all situations..
However we are to help those in need always.
 
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DesertWanderer

Active member
#52
Nov 17, 2019
366
201
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New Mexico, USA
#52
kaylagrl said:
Have you sold your home, your car. given up everything to evangelize?
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No, but I haven't asked other people to pay for those things, either. I haven't put the little wealth I have on the backs of poor working people. I haven't asked other people to pay my mortgage or send my kids to private school. I would never ask those things of my fellow believers, and neither should the church.
 
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EleventhHour

Guest
#55
#55
DesertWanderer said:
Yes, and it would be nice if we would help those in our congregation first, instead of traipsing off on expensive journies to far-away continents.
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Agree
 
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kaylagrl

Guest
#56
#56
DesertWanderer said:
There is when a massive mortgage is tied to it and the middle class is footing the bill.
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That's up to the church members. Our church was looking at moving, the pastor checked it out and even though it was a fantastic deal he was afraid it was too much for our little church to handle. He brought to the church and the people agreed. You have church membership for a reason.
 
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kaylagrl

Guest
#57
#57
DesertWanderer said:
No, but I haven't asked other people to pay for those things, either. I haven't put the little wealth I have on the backs of poor working people. I haven't asked other people to pay my mortgage or send my kids to private school. I would never ask those things of my fellow believers, and neither should the church.
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So you're saying you're against a pastor having a salary ?!
 
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kaylagrl

Guest
#58
#58
DesertWanderer said:
Yes, and it would be nice if we would help those in our congregation first, instead of traipsing off on expensive journies to far-away continents.
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You're against missions?! My sister has been to Africa more than once to minister to the people there. Why are you against missions?
 
seoulsearch

seoulsearch

OutWrite Trouble
#59
May 23, 2009
16,642
5,558
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#59
I have often read posts in which people reference the utopian-sounding atmosphere of the early church (in which people sold what they had to share with others, etc.), but I think it's crucial to remember that even if we somehow were/are able to go back to this, it will still face the same kinds of problems that arise in any such similar setting.

While the early church started out as an ideal model, I think it's important to note that even the apostles ran into the same kind of human disagreements that would still challenge even the most well-meaning Christ-centered establishment.

Acts 6:1-3 -- In those days, when the disciples were increasing in number, the Grecian Jews among them began to grumble against the Hebraic Jews, because their widows were being overlooked in the daily distribution of food.

So the twelve summoned all the disciples and said, "It is unacceptable for us to neglect the Word of God in order to wait on tables.

Therefore, brothers, select from among you seven men confirmed to be full of the Spirit and wisdom. We will appoint this responsibility to them.

The same complaints would be even more pervasive today. Who should receive more, a family with a single special needs child or a family with 4 children without special needs? Who should be in charge of deciding how the resources are distributed, and whom should they answer to as a check and balance of power? What safeguards would be put into place in order to deal with abuses? How would a modern-day Ananias and Sapphira be dealt with?

If a person is selling their good individually and helping out those of their own choosing, how will they handle grumblings that the resources should have been given to X and not Y, because inevitably, this is what happens in any charitable situation.

No matter how "ideal" of a system is set up, even within the Body of Christ, you will always have these kinds of issues.

Even within the early New Testament church, things didn't go smoothly for very long.
 
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7seasrekeyed

Guest
#60
#60
seoulsearch said:
No matter how "ideal" of a system is set up, even within the Body of Christ, you will always have these kinds of issues.

Even within the early New Testament church, things didn't go smoothly for very long.
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yup

people like to idealize the NT church and somehow overlook how much of the NT was written to correct error or give instruction so things would be done properly

nothing has changed, but too many think they could do a better job but if given the chance, they would soon find out it is not easy and in fact, it is difficult
 
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