Struggling with this principle

  • Christian Chat is a moderated online Christian community allowing Christians around the world to fellowship with each other in real time chat via webcam, voice, and text, with the Christian Chat app. You can also start or participate in a Bible-based discussion here in the Christian Chat Forums, where members can also share with each other their own videos, pictures, or favorite Christian music.

    If you are a Christian and need encouragement and fellowship, we're here for you! If you are not a Christian but interested in knowing more about Jesus our Lord, you're also welcome! Want to know what the Bible says, and how you can apply it to your life? Join us!

    To make new Christian friends now around the world, click here to join Christian Chat.
D

DBurrage

Banned
#1
Apr 21, 2020
621
176
43
#1
I'm struggling to make sense of the following idea:

God is omniscient (all knowing).
If God is all knowing, then no human can ever think, feel or say anything that God wouldn't have prior knowledge of.
In other words, you can't do anything that God didn't already know you were going to do.

I can't reconcile this idea with humans having free will.

Any help appreciated.
 
D

DBurrage

Banned
#2
Apr 21, 2020
621
176
43
#2
Thanks to the admins for approving this post.
 
Dave-L

Dave-L

Banned
#3
Jan 17, 2020
4,792
736
113
#3
DBurrage said:
I'm struggling to make sense of the following idea:

God is omniscient (all knowing).
If God is all knowing, then no human can ever think, feel or say anything that God wouldn't have prior knowledge of.
In other words, you can't do anything that God didn't already know you were going to do.

I can't reconcile this idea with humans having free will.

Any help appreciated.
Click to expand...
Humans do not have free will. Problem solved.
 
D

DBurrage

Banned
#4
Apr 21, 2020
621
176
43
#4
Dave-L said:
Humans do not have free will. Problem solved.
Click to expand...
It does solve the problem, but it raises another:

God created each person not just knowing who would accept Jesus, but each person was 'programmed' either to accept Jesus or reject him.
Thus, it is not people's choice whether they accept Jesus or not.
 
Dave-L

Dave-L

Banned
#5
Jan 17, 2020
4,792
736
113
#5
DBurrage said:
It does solve the problem, but it raises another:

God created each person not just knowing who would accept Jesus, but each person was 'programmed' either to accept Jesus or reject him.
Thus, it is not people's choice whether they accept Jesus or not.
Click to expand...
This is correct. God has mercy on whom he will.
 
Dave-L

Dave-L

Banned
#7
Jan 17, 2020
4,792
736
113
#7
DBurrage said:
Then what is the point in trying to spread the message of Jesus if who God chooses to save has already been decided?
Click to expand...
The gospel frees us from the effects of sin when obeyed. The thief on the cross was saved but lacked the insight provided by the gospel.
 
tourist

tourist

Senior Member
#8
Mar 13, 2014
41,313
16,301
113
69
Tennessee
#8
DBurrage said:
Then what is the point in trying to spread the message of Jesus if who God chooses to save has already been decided?
Click to expand...
It is God's will and desire that all shall be saved. Perhaps God chose everyone as He is certainly capable and willing to accomplish His will and desire.
 
P

pottersclay

Guest
#9
#9
The Lord has asked us to choose " blessings or cursings".
All humans were made in his image so there is a unfulfilled spot deep within our being that longs to be fulfilled.
We can choose to ignore it.....fill it with worldly riches....or begin seeking out what is missing.
If God programed all to love or hate him then there is no righteousness. How could one judge a person who had no choice?
The word of God says " only a fool says there is no God" a fool is not one that doesn't know but is one who chooses not to believe.
We have his word. We have his prophecy's. All of creation testify of him. So we are left with no excuse.
Sin not ignorance has separated us from God. Jesus has made a way back to the arms of our loving father.
Praise be to God and his son Jesus for yet while we were still sinners Christ died for us opening the doors of Mercy and grace .
 
Subhumanoidal

Subhumanoidal

Well-known member
#10
Sep 17, 2018
3,671
2,889
113
#10
DBurrage said:
I'm struggling to make sense of the following idea:

God is omniscient (all knowing).
If God is all knowing, then no human can ever think, feel or say anything that God wouldn't have prior knowledge of.
In other words, you can't do anything that God didn't already know you were going to do.

I can't reconcile this idea with humans having free will.

Any help appreciated.
Click to expand...
Not really a believer in free will, but the concept is still rather simple.
If i get an automated call from a bill collector every day at 3 PM, does knowing that it's going to happen mean I'm affecting it?
Knowing what's going to happen does not mean you have power over it or are dictating it. It's merely an awareness of what will eventually happen.
 
p_rehbein

p_rehbein

Senior Member
#11
Sep 4, 2013
30,196
6,539
113
#11
DBurrage said:
I'm struggling to make sense of the following idea:

God is omniscient (all knowing).
If God is all knowing, then no human can ever think, feel or say anything that God wouldn't have prior knowledge of.
In other words, you can't do anything that God didn't already know you were going to do.

I can't reconcile this idea with humans having free will.

Any help appreciated.
Click to expand...
God foreknowing our thoughts/deeds, does not nullify free will.......................God gave mankind free will because He loves mankind, and, most importantly, wants MAN to freely choose to love and serve Him. He does NOT WANT a world of robotic peoples, mindless lifeforms simply taking up space until He decides to send Christ Jesus back to gather up His children and take them Home to Him.

I don't think you are really having a problem with free will, I think you are simply trying to start ANOTHER Thread to denounce free will, but you will ALWAYS FAIL in that endeavor, because, well, because God GAVE us free will and we who understand that will ALWAYS refute any attempt to say otherwise...........

but, shoot, go on and try.............
 
M

MattforJesus

Banned
#12
Apr 15, 2017
2,867
653
113
#12
Dave-L said:
Humans do not have free will. Problem solved.
Click to expand...
If we do not choose our salvation then God's kingdom is not true love.

If you program your computer to say I love you when it starts up, or program a robot to say I love you, do they truly love you.

And God is not evil to condemn people that have no choice but to reject the truth.

If we do not choose salvation then our faith is not real, our confession of Christ is not real, our repenting of sins is not real, our hope is not real, and our love is not real, for it did not come from us but from God.

If we do not choose salvation then God would of not created the earth with all the suffering, and people lost, and the problems on earth, for He could of created people to be with Him and not put them on earth, and the result would be the same, for whether on earth, or not on earth, people would not have a choice.

If we do not have a choice why would God put people on earth where many will perish that cannot come to the truth, and all the suffering on earth.

The fact that God created the earth, and put people on it testifies that we have a choice to choose salvation or not.

The Lamb was slain from the foundation of the world.

The prophets blood was shed from the foundation of the world.

The saints predestined to salvation means God already had the plan to give mankind salvation before He started creation, but that salvation is to whoever wants that salvation.

For God commands all people to repent, and come to the knowledge of the truth, and be saved.

And the Spirit and bride say anybody can have that salvation.

And Jesus lights every person born in to this world.
 
T

TheDivineWatermark

Well-known member
#13
Aug 3, 2018
10,214
1,980
113
#13
Dave-L said:
This is correct. God has mercy on whom he will.
Click to expand...
Read that verse in view of its entire context.

Read along with it, this verse--->(in its overall context)--->: "For God hath concluded them all [Jews AND Gentiles] in unbelief, that he might have mercy upon all [Jews AND Gentiles alike]." Romans 11:32





[Romans 9-11's overall context covering "nations": "Israel [singular nation]" and "Gentiles [plural nations]"--Thus, read chpt 9 in view of this overall context (and alongside 11:32), rather than pulling out one verse from chpt 9 and [mis-]interpreting it APART from its overall context ;) ]
 
Dave-L

Dave-L

Banned
#14
Jan 17, 2020
4,792
736
113
#14
MattforJesus said:
If we do not choose our salvation then God's kingdom is not true love.

If you program your computer to say I love you when it starts up, or program a robot to say I love you, do they truly love you.

And God is not evil to condemn people that have no choice but to reject the truth.

If we do not choose salvation then our faith is not real, our confession of Christ is not real, our repenting of sins is not real, our hope is not real, and our love is not real, for it did not come from us but from God.

If we do not choose salvation then God would of not created the earth with all the suffering, and people lost, and the problems on earth, for He could of created people to be with Him and not put them on earth, and the result would be the same, for whether on earth, or not on earth, people would not have a choice.

If we do not have a choice why would God put people on earth where many will perish that cannot come to the truth, and all the suffering on earth.

The fact that God created the earth, and put people on it testifies that we have a choice to choose salvation or not.

The Lamb was slain from the foundation of the world.

The prophets blood was shed from the foundation of the world.

The saints predestined to salvation means God already had the plan to give mankind salvation before He started creation, but that salvation is to whoever wants that salvation.

For God commands all people to repent, and come to the knowledge of the truth, and be saved.

And the Spirit and bride say anybody can have that salvation.

And Jesus lights every person born in to this world.
Click to expand...
Not really. We are so wicked we will only choose a kingdom that we find appealing. We must first be born again before we can see the true kingdom and find it appealing.
 
Dave-L

Dave-L

Banned
#15
Jan 17, 2020
4,792
736
113
#15
TheDivineWatermark said:
Read that verse in view of its entire context.

Read along with it, this verse--->(in its overall context)--->: "For God hath concluded them all [Jews AND Gentiles] in unbelief, that he might have mercy upon all [Jews AND Gentiles alike]." Romans 11:32





[Romans 9-11's overall context covering "nations": "Israel [singular nation]" and "Gentiles [plural nations]"--Thus, read chpt 9 in view of this overall context (and alongside 11:32), rather than pulling out one verse from chpt 9 and [mis-]interpreting it APART from its overall context ;) ]
Click to expand...
“Therefore hath he mercy on whom he will have mercy, and whom he will he hardeneth.” Romans 9:18 (KJV 1900)
 
CharliRenee

CharliRenee

Member
Staff member
#16
Nov 4, 2014
6,687
7,165
113
#16
I believe, He changes the heart of the chooser, persuades if you will, with whatever works He chooses. He woos us all. I feel His dying on the cross for our sins would not make sense if there were not a choice. In the beginning, He gave Adam and Eve a choice. I believe in the valley of decision. He foreknew, and He predistined those who He knew would make the choice.

I think it sooo good to be proactive in our Faith and in our desire to draw near, to keep our hearts fixed. It helps knowing when we fall short, His faithful nature keeps us and nudges us back where we belong. I am so grateful to the great Shepherd.

It is kinda complex to me, to be honest. His thoughts and ways are not all perfectly clear. I know that mine is to just keep going to His feet. My spirit is settled on Him giving us choice. It makes sense biblically, to me. After all, that is why He encourages us all throughout to keep seeking and drawing near. No matter what though, if it were not for His calling, a choice there would not be.

So yeah, Salvation will always belong to the Lord.
 
G

garee

Banned
#17
Mar 28, 2016
15,954
1,528
113
#17
DBurrage said:
I'm struggling to make sense of the following idea:

God is omniscient (all knowing).
If God is all knowing, then no human can ever think, feel or say anything that God wouldn't have prior knowledge of.
In other words, you can't do anything that God didn't already know you were going to do.

I can't reconcile this idea with humans having free will.

Any help appreciated.
Click to expand...
We were not created with a free will but rather a will that was designed to please God not seen. That will was subject to death as the letter of the law. A oral tradition could never defend the integrity of a law giver.

Mankind chose to do the will of the creature seen "no faith" coming from a unseen God the glory departed .

In that way God restored the manner of communing by faith with the creature giving us ears to hear his understanding hid from those with no faith.. He works in us as he did with the old testament saints purifying our hearts by his labor of love or called work of faith . We are given a warning like in the garden to do the will of the father as he works with us to make the load lighter brighter . Beleive without murmuring and causing dissention. and remember in Hebrew 6 our comforter informs of the better things that accompany salvation. That he will not forget the good works we worked with Him giving us a daily reminder our daily bread. Again to strengthen us to do His will. The food the disciples at first knew not of the meat of the word doing the will of the father..

For it is God which worketh in you both to will and to do of his good pleasure. Do all things without murmurings and disputings: Philipian2:13;14

Why would he design a will any other way and call that free restful, eternal peaceful ???

Isaiah 29:16 Surely your turning of things upside down shall be esteemed as the potter's clay: for shall the work say of him that made it, He made me not? or shall the thing framed say of him that framed it, He had no understanding?
 
T

TheDivineWatermark

Well-known member
#18
Aug 3, 2018
10,214
1,980
113
#18
Dave-L said:
“Therefore hath he mercy on whom he will have mercy, and whom he will he hardeneth.” Romans 9:18 (KJV 1900)
Click to expand...
Yes, but this is stated in the context of the understood question, "but what of all the promises to Israel ? [where are they, now?]"

This "response" (so to speak), by Paul, is saying, "God can have mercy on the Gentiles, if He so wills to! [and He does WILL TO! It IS His "will"!]... it is not the possession of 'us JEWS ALONE' [us Jews and NO ONE ELSE!] !" No. Now read that sentence you quoted ^ in view of this (context).



[then... chpt 11 goes on to tell about the "blindness [/hardening]... UNTIL" ;) ... and the "As concerning the gospel, they are enemies for your sakes: but as concerning the election, they are beloved for the fathers' sakes"..., see ;) (vv.25-29) ]
 
Dave-L

Dave-L

Banned
#19
Jan 17, 2020
4,792
736
113
#19
TheDivineWatermark said:
Yes, but this is stated in the context of the understood question, "but what of all the promises to Israel ? [where are they, now?]"

This "response" (so to speak), by Paul, is saying, "God can have mercy on the Gentiles, if He so wills to! [and He does WILL TO! It IS His "will"!]... it is not the possession of 'us JEWS ALONE' [us Jews and NO ONE ELSE!] !" No. Now read that sentence you quoted ^ in view of this (context).



[then... chpt 11 goes on to tell about the "blindness [/hardening]... UNTIL" ;) ... and the "As concerning the gospel, they are enemies for your sakes: but as concerning the election, they are beloved for the fathers' sakes"..., see ;) (vv.25-29) ]
Click to expand...
We are Israel.
 
CS1

CS1

Well-known member
#20
May 23, 2012
12,337
4,056
113
#20
DBurrage said:
I'm struggling to make sense of the following idea:

God is omniscient (all-knowing).
If God is all-knowing, then no human can ever think, feel, or say anything that God wouldn't have prior knowledge of.
In other words, you can't do anything that God didn't already know you were going to do.

I can't reconcile this idea with humans having free will.

Any help appreciated.
Click to expand...
the problem with that mid-set is God is not just all-knowing, HE too can allow one the freedom to do. it is not one or the other, it is ALL. The God who knows all, Sees all, and all present.

Yet HE can allow one to chose even if HE knows what you will choose. Human reasoning will limit the Limitless God.
 
You must log in or register to reply here.