Does man have a libertarian free will?

Wow. This thread. You shall know them by their fruit...

he is specifically insulting...goes out of his way

anyone who spits on women has a problem as women served in the NT church...some as prophets, some as teachers and some as teachers or evangelists ...not sure which and not going to check just now

but I appreciate the fact that you do not buy into his anti women thoughts

Calvin was also anti women

calvinism is a dangerous and heretical system IMO

In regards to those who claim that faith is not a gift of God, and that the Reformed concept of regeneration preceding faith being unbiblical, here's a good response by the Monergism website on this matter:


Visitor comment:
God didn’t make me believe and he STILL gets all the glory. God is that good. God does not make automatons. The only way there can be love is if when God draws us he gives us the freedom to choose.

Response:

So if your toddler ran out in the street against your wishes and you ran out into oncoming traffic at the risk of your life to scoop him up, regardless of his will or wishes at the time, does that make him an automaton? Let's say another parent in the same situation simply stands at the curb and only yelled out to give the toddler a choice but did nothing more to help. Which of the two parents loved? Obviously the one who did not give him a choice but risked his life to MAKE CERTAIN the toddler was saved. That is the one who loved.

Just this one simple example from something that could happen in everyday life reveals a kind of flawed logic about love that can be easily refuted. As such you should probably never use this argument. It is not biblical and fails an easy test of logic.
The whole "man must have a free will for their to be love" is actually nowhere found in the bible. The bible teaches, rather, that while we were still sinners in rebellion God quickened us, opened our eyes, ears and heart to the gospel. We believed. (Deut 29:4, 30:6, Eph 2:5, 8). It is written, No one comes to Christ or says "Jesus is Lord" apart from the Holy Spirit (1 Cor 12:3)
Jesus says "the Spirit quickens, the flesh counts for nothing...that is why I told you that no one can come to me unless the Father who sent me grants it." John 6:63, 65

Left to himself no man comes to Christ when he hears the gospel but to those who are called, it is the power of God unto salvation (1 Cor 1:23-24, 2:14) So you cannot ascribe your repenting and believing, even partly, to your own wisdom, humility, sound judgement or good sense, but to Christ alone. It is because of Him that you are in Christ Jesus... so let him who boasts, boast in the Lord" - 1 Cor 1:29-31

Faith is a gift but also belief is required. Pistis and pisteuo.

But in your theology God does in fact choose who He saved. So yes God in your theology chose most of His children to play in the road. Technically using your image, God is both parents. Which isn't love. God doesn't show favoritism. By your conclusion above, everyone should be saved. Just flawed conclusions.

You also forget God isnt just all love but also all just. Using a innocent child metaphor doesn't work in this example.

Deuteronomy 30:19-20 (NIV)
19 This day I call the heavens and the earth as witnesses against you that I have set before you life and death, blessings and curses. Now choose life, so that you and your children may live 20 and that you may love the Lord your God, listen to his voice, and hold fast to him. For the Lord is your life, and he will give you many years in the land he swore to give to your fathers, Abraham, Isaac and Jacob.

(Why lie if there is no choice?)

Romans 10:9 (NIV)
9 If you declare with your mouth, “Jesus is Lord,” and believe (pisteuo) in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved.

John 3:16 (NIV)
16 For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes ( pisteuo) in him shall not perish but have eternal life.

Ephesians 2:8 (NIV)
8 For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith ( pistis) —and this is not from yourselves, it is the gift of God—

Ephesians 2:5 (NIV)
5 made us alive with Christ even when we were dead in transgressions—it is by grace you have been saved.

(Yes this what happens once we realize we cannot save ourselves. Our sins are too great. And ultimately we need Jesus. We are dead spiritually without Jesus. Grace is beautiful as for all who would believe has the same opportunity. )

John 6:44 (NIV)
44 “No one can come to me unless the Father who sent me draws them, and I will raise them up at the last day.

This is the Spirits action within mankind. We know the Spirit actively works in us because Romans 1:20 and Romans 2 tells us all are without excuse. If God didn't work within mankind, no one would respond. Think of it as relational not forced. Pisteuo a spiritual persuasive act within the human who also relationally responds. This is how we are responsible for our sins and not God. It equally is a gift for God to freely act this way because we do not deserve it.

But 4 verses above John 6: 44 contradicts your interpretation.

John 6
40 For my Father’s will is that everyone who looks to the Son and believes in him shall have eternal life, and I will raise them up at the last day.”

John 6:65 in context was Jesus talking to His disciples. He knew who he would choose and who would betray him. But theologically it still doesn't go against how God works within free will. God has only granted 1 way to salvation.

By the way, this reply isn't perfect in that I don't believe God saves people "against their will" , and this is a strawman of the Reformed position.

God changes the nature of the person, so that the person desires God. And that's the ONLY WAY they will desire God.

Free willers have a much too optimistic view of the fallen man's nature, and an underappreciation of what is required for him to turn to God in dependence.

Sometimes I wonder if many of them are simply unsaved, because if they experienced regeneration themselves, they should know these truths.

It isnt a strawman if you are a strict Calvinist. Pre election is God choosing who He would save and would not.

Agree. Accept I believe God actively seeks all people. That is the only way all are without excuse Romans 1:20. But people have the will to either reject or accept.

As for too much optimism. Idk about that. Sounds like more of your doctrines talking than anything because of course if you believe in pre election as Calvinist do then I suppose someone thinking they accepted Jesus is too extreme for you.

Ah funny. Says every denomination. Elite mentality.

It is written that God's will is that all souls would be saved. Perhaps here will is used lto express it is His desire…..........no matter. It is written.

There is no pre- and post-election distinction.

If you want to be honest, simply state that you don't believe God elects ANYONE. They choose themselves by placing their faith in Christ.

That is exactly what free-willers teach. There is no reason why they should attribute election to God himself, when it comes to salvation.

Yes, God chooses who he will save, and lets the others suffer the result of their sinfulness. This is not at all unjust. God isn't obligated to save anyone. And, you really have a problem reconciling Romans 8-11 with this doctrine that God does not choose...

And, as I have repeated about ten times or more on this site, you or free-willers CANNOT exegete 1 Corinthians 1:26ff in light of your teaching. You cannot. I haven't seen one of you attempt it. It is obvious that Paul is emphasizing HIS RIGHT TO CHOOSE and that he even chooses people with undesirable characteristics to make his glory shown more clearly.

I can refer to many more verses that would teach the same things, but some of them are more susceptible to claims that they are referring to service rather than salvation. So, I only use the clearest example and I have found no one who has a good explanation of these verses from a free-willer context.

And..to be honest...I don't really think most Christians are capable of handling the reality that God exerts his sovereignty in salvation. They don't think it is fair for God to fail to extend salvation to all people. However, that isn't what I see in Scripture.

I can understand the tendency to want to shape God in our image, implying our standards of right and wrong to him, though. I did it as an annihilationist. I didn't think it was fair for anyone to suffer eternally, therefore I rejected Scriptures that seemed to indicate this, or twisted them around to claim the opposite. That's what I see with free-willers. They cannot handle the reality that God actually does elect certain individuals to salvation so they reject it.

Instead, they come up with doctrines like corporate election..God elects a class rather than individuals. And, you choose whether you want to belong to that class. So, in essence, what they are doing is twisting around election so it is them who elects God, rather than vice versa.

No matter what they say, that is the end result of their word games. I am sovereign, and not God. God doesn't really have to change my heart to cause me to desire Him. It is already capable of this. And, then when I choose God, he changes my heart. Such is the insanity of decisional regeneration.

Like I have said, that's what it boils down to. Free-willers believe they dredge up faith and repentance out of their stony, dead hearts, and after this, they are given a heart of flesh. Reformed believers are convicted that they could never dredge up faith and repentance from their heart of stone, therefore God must give them this heart of stone, and faith and repentance issues forward from it.

Free-willers believe that they were merely seriously sick but are still capable of response. Reformed people believe that they were spiritually dead, and God resurrected them so they could respond.

I'll leave it to the reader to decide which is more coherent. I know what my decision is

I spent probably 2/3 of my Christian life listening to free-willers. Their teaching was about as clear as mud. And, I attended some decent free-willer churches like CMA and Calvary Chapel. I begin attending a Reformed-leaning fellowship and things all of a sudden come into clear focus. It all makes sense in light of my experience AND the Bible.

Like I've said, I wonder if some free-willers are saved because they don't seem to see how the doctrine aligns with the experience of salvation. There was a younger guy in the jail who I talked with, one on one. I had given him a copy of the 1689 London Baptist Confession, which lays Reformed teaching out clearly. He read it and told me he knew it was true because it perfectly aligned with his experience and explained it well in terms of Scripture. That's where I am with it.

And, as I said, I am not impressed with free willers whatsoever. I may have learned a little from a few Calvary Chapel guys but they were straddling the line between synergism and monergism.

Regarding Romans 1:20, I agree that no man has any excuse with regards to knowing whether God exists. They know it. They are simply in rebellion against him. They know God exists, but they do not have relationship knowledge of Him. There is a difference between general revelation and special revelation, though. Not all men have been given special revelation. And, when they are given special revelation, unless regeneration occurs, they do not respond. This is related to the concept of general call versus effectual call. There is a general call, which many receive, but there is also an effectual call, which produces a positive result because the person is regenerated by God causing this positive result.

Lol...You don't believe that people are saved, who actually read the scriptures and understand that it's God's will that all be saved, and whosoever will let him come, choose you this day..... etc., etc.,

And you believe what a guy in jail said actually proves your doctrine is right....Let me guess, the dude was also innocent, because you do know most people in jail are innocent and they most all get "saved" as soon as they are convicted....LOL Well, that's what they say anyhow....hahaha

I maintain that it is, in fact, a strawman because Reformed theology teaches that God regenerates the person, causing him to desire God.

Guys like Jesse Morrell (Pelagian street and campus preacher) and other free-willers may create their strawman memes of God "battering down the door" of resistant sinners who don't want to be saved, in order to slander Reformed theology, but they are relying on a poor understanding of it or an intentional misrepresentation. The teaching is that God changes the nature of the saved man, which produces the faith/repentance response.

I don't doubt that Morrell knows better, though, and intentionally misrepresents. It seems to be a trend amongst guys like him.

Maybe the guy who wrote this response was assuming the perspective of the strawman argument, and working within the belief system of the person.

I don't rely solely on his testimony in this regard. I mentioned my own testimony.

And, in regards to this, criminals are human beings, too. They are made in the image of God, and it may challenge your ability to understand this, but God can regenerate ANYONE.

This particular guy is studying biblical counseling so he can help other substance abusers.

By the way, this seems to reveal the free-willer mentality. Many of them actually believe they are virtuous and look down on some such as this inmate.

And, just so you are aware of this, many of the prisoners do, indeed, read their bibles regularly. This person was very diligent in his studies.

Also, it seems like you have some mistaken view of how God accomplishes his will. Reading Scripture and hearing the Gospel is part of the means God uses to accomplishing his decree. Regeneration does not occur in a vacuum.

A good analogy would be a woodpile. Parents can build a "woodpile" for their children by exposing them to catechism questions and Scriptural memorization. These things aren't the primary cause of salvation, though. It is the Holy Spirit who ignites the fire through regeneration.

An intelligent person can see how secondary causes are used to produce salvation, but it is ultimately God's regenerative power that saves.

Additionally, I would like to see your "whosoever will" scripture reference. If you are talking about John 3:16, you quoted it very badly.
It says this:


John 3:16 16 “For God so loved the world, that he gave his only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish but have eternal life.
(ESV)


And, I totally agree with this verse.

Anyone who believes will not perish but will have eternal life.

The real issue is, what causes belief?

I maintain that regeneration causes belief, and it is a specific gift of God through being given a heart of flesh to replace the heart of stone that the fallen man operates on.

If you really want to know what I think about your retort, I find it amusing because it is a very ignorant way to address my claims. I also find it disgusting because you are belittling a young man that I have a lot of respect for. He was motivated enough by sound teaching to begin seeking training so he can help other addicts.

So, what have you done with your Christianity? Are you seeking to serve God like he is? Or, are you some lone ranger Christian who sits at home waiting for the "rapture"?

He was one of the "success stories" of my jail ministry endeavor, although I'm not dumb enough to fail to acknowledge it was God's work if he regenerated them. I just got lucky enough to help them along a little. There's one other guy who I think will go in the same direction, but he is probably not able to handle the academic challenge. I believe he will probably lead a Christian recovery group at some point, though.

For anyone who wants to see a Scriptural basis for my position, I have several threads on the forums about them. Just do a search on my username. You might use "heart of flesh" as a search condition.

And..by the way, I only had a few guys tell me that they weren't guilty, or that they were not as guilty as the charges that were leveled.

If it was discussed, many of them would admit that they were, in fact, deserved their situation.

That's the refreshing thing about Reformed believers. They, also, while not being in jail, realize that they deserve eternal punishment. Therefore, they realize the depths of God's mercy and grace extended to them.

That's what a good understanding of theology does for a person.

Not so with many free-willers. I would say that is where you find the most self-righteous people on the planet. Some of them are like Pharisees who outwardly seemed to be clean but inside were full of fiilth. And, many of them are blind to their sin.

I suspect that a lot of free-willers really haven't been taught by God the deceitfulness of their nature, or they would not continue to resist the fact that the fallen man has a heart of stone. If they haven't been taught by God the true, deceitful state of their hearts, perhaps they haven't even been regenerated yet.

I can remember that for four months, I was studying the Bible prior to being regenerated. I thought I had cleaned my life up, and was doing good works like helping old people with yard work, etcetera. I counseled with the pastor on baptism, and he said, do you know that you are self-righteous? I didn't even know what he was talking about. He told me to go to God in prayer and ask him to show me my self-righteousness. I spent a lot of time the next two weeks praying about this, and God just flipped the switch in my mind one morning. All of a sudden I saw how my sinful, heart of stone was deceiving myself into thinking that I was a good person.

Then, I was able to repent and place my faith in Christ.

To be honest, I suspect that many free-willers have never reached that point and are not true believers. I think that is why they have an issue with this view of salvation that God must give the person a heart of flesh to replace the heart of stone, in order to produce faith and repentance. The kind of faith and repentance they have is not real faith and repentance. They are not even aware of the deceitful nature of sin and the fallen state.

And, just to let you know, I think it's possible the jail guards were in worse spiritual condition than some of the men. And, in fact, it's very possible some of the other chaplain aides were in a similar situation. Some probably really haven't experienced the deadness of their condition. They may have trotted down some aisle in a moment of emotion, but in reality they were not regenerated.

I suspect this is the case with many from groups like Independent Fundamentalist Baptists, some Southern Baptists, Free Grace Movement, and Grace Evangelical Society guys too..those that have a poor understanding of repentance. I would lump them in this category of "no-lordship salvation" guys. I suspect a significant portion of those types are lost.

Ya'll got a Bible and need to read it...Quit following after Calvin or any other yahoo teaching these perversions.

Woe to anyone who adds or takes away...So that's big woe for you all. You are taking away from scriptures that say any, all, all men, whosoever, the whole world....etc., etc., Big woe for trying to limit who God can or will save...So in my opinion that is a big salvation issue...God has already defined who can be saved through scripture and that be any, whosoever will, and all men that call upon him.

You might want to question your own motives here and what about Calvinism appeals to you, because it sure isn't Biblical...just saying

Here's another thing..I am not even sure the head chaplain was saved.

There was a bisexual guy in one of the groups. I was discussing which books I might give him in order to help him understand the gospel better.

Later, the guy stopped attending the group.

The charismatic chaplain said, don't be too disappointed, he's a bisexual and guys who commit homosexual sin are unlikely to come to Christ.

See, that's the free-willer mentality for you. Many of them DO NOT look to God to regenerate sinners, but look toward some admirable quality in the sinner that will make him likely to respond to their message.

But, the Reformed guy knows that God can regenerate ANYONE. And, he knows that there are likely former homosexual sitting in the congregation next to them.

No well-instructed Reformed person would ever say what the chaplain said, about the chances of someone coming to Christ depending on his particular sin issue. That's because they know that it is the power of God that causes regeneration.

It is not the sinner graciously "allowing" God into his heart. God changes his heart.

Free-willer theology is ridiculous, only in varying degrees.

LOL...I was not looking down on anyone. It appears you have got that all backwards "freewillers" as you call us are not the ones looking down on others, acting superior to others, or trying to limit who God can and will save. Pretty sure that is what the Calvinist do, in telling people they have no choice either way. Now that sure isn't biblical and that really is a bad doctrine. God says whosoever will let him come and drink of the waters of life freely, but Calvin says no and tells people it is limited. What????

Jesus was crucified to take on the sin of the world...and said "If I be lifted up, I will draw all men to me" God sent his only begotten Son so that whosoever will believe on him will not perish but have everlasting life.

Calvin says, not true, Jesus only died for some people, and some people don't even have a chance...What????

Zzzzzz the wall of words. You are correct. Let the reader decide. I think if you are not harassing a free willer every few days or creating threads to try and spark someone to fill your itch, you would be bored. Try evangelizing or encouraging for once.

Firstly, you did in fact render a judgment concerning the young man and his ability to discern. And, somehow this was related to his status as a criminal in jail.

He is someone made in God's image and in fact is seeking to please God with his educational endeavor.

Secondly, no Reformed person tells someone they cannot be saved. They don't know who the elect are. There's not a yellow X on their back that identifies them as one of the elect.

Thirdly, you don't understand the issues regarding choices. I don't suppose this will do much good, because I already said that God changes the heart, and faith and repentance flow from this new heart. There is still a "choice" but the man's choices are dictated by his nature. A fallen man, dead in sins, chooses evil, and a spiritually resurrected man, alive to Christ, chooses to pursue God.

Fourthly, this isn't related to John Calvin. The Apostle Paul taught monergism. Augustine taught monergism. Gottschalk taught monergism. Martin Luther taught monergism. To be honest, I haven't read any of Calvin's book. The theology is not dependent on him.

Fifthly, I use the phrase "free willers" because free willers interject the phrase "free will" so much that it is appropriate. If a parrot constantly said the phrase "free will", I think the name "free willy" would be appropriate.

Sixthly, God can save anyone he wants. He's already elected the ones he wanted to save. He did this at the foundation at the world. I am not limiting God. God limited himself to saving his elect. Just like he chose only eight people and the rest drown in the flood.

By the way, the number "8" is associated with new beginnings. Not more than eight would have been saved. Noah was, in essence, another "Adam" in a sense. So, the number was already fixed, and it had nothing to do with the choice of those who drown.

There is no reason to think that God would not choose a certain group of individuals to be saved now, either.

Seventh, the view of God that free willers have is misguided. Most of them likely believe in a God with exhaustive foreknowledge, meaning that he knows the future in detail (Is 46:9-10). Yet, the claim is that he tries to save every single person, and has tried to save every single person, yet has failed at it in most cases.

This view has two problems with it. First, why would God try to save people that he already knows are going to be lost? He has exhaustive foreknowledge. He already knows the outcome of every person. Second, it requires belief in a God who does not accomplish his objectives, except for a small minority.

By the way, before the person "makes a decision", their fate is already sealed. God's knowledge is infallible, and he knows where they are going, whether to eternal punishment or eternal life. So, even if I believed free-willer teaching, I know when I look at a person that their destiny is already fixed, one way or another.

The only way you are going to get past this is to claim that God is not omniscient, and does not have exhaustive foreknowledge. And, that is exactly what some heretics, who believe in open theism, do.

Eighth, it has been my experience that free-willers are the more vicious individuals when it comes to attacking Reformed people. If one comes along who isn't intimidated by them, they don't like it. And that person is me. I won't be intimidated by free-willers.