THE LIE IN LORDSHIP SALVATION THEORY

Agreed. We know we are saved and even though I do not care for Calvinism I would not state they are not saved...which sadly is more than I have heard from some that have taken the exit (had their bags packed for them)

The 'good works' will be a changed life, a witness for Christ and a desire to please God more than self. Most Christians will not actually do works in the sense of being a Pastor, evangelist, teacher or whatever (there are too many who have not ever been called but are self appointed but that's another thread)

What I have seen, is that people talking past each other are sometimes saying the same thing while refusing to give an inch

I think almost all Christians would agree a changed life does come about with salvation. Mouth service only is not Christianity and I think both sides would agree on that...referring to the not by works thread and similar

one side states you do not have to do works for salvation, it is by grace only and the other side says you have to do works or you are not saved

I think the truth is in the middle. Salvation will incur the good works we have been created to do and those are the works of the Holy Spirit in us and not human good works as an unsaved person will also do good works

but the debate rages on for some nonetheless

ok

not TULIPO

just TULIP

for those who are being sincere in their approach, not those who predictably twist and summarize what you did not say or others did not say, but bring up rare and unusual statements that no one lays claim to save the poster who thinks a superior intellect consists of telling everyone else they are wrong, when it is they who are wrong

I don't think even your grandmother would believe that one . digging deeper just makes it harder for you to see out

why bother

you are already ignoring what myself and others have stated over and over

whatever

that is not true

simply not at all true

give it a rest already or use the ignore option. such threatening words. shiver shiver

Some just can’t see

Submission to the will of God,
first of all,obey god,
The will of God is to save all men
At this point, you need to obey God's will
It's not an option, it's necessary

Submission Christ’s lordship
love eachother
love others as yourself
love your enemy
pray for your enemy

If you do this, you can be regarded as a qualified Christian,and understanding bible well
Besides, you object to one of them, then you are not a friend of Christ.


The First Commandment
obey the will of god, The will of God is to save all men
judgment.lake of fire,etc,These are just the results of bad,It doesn't mean who can't be saved

Hello throughfaith, before I comment I'd like to make sure who I'm addressing, so if it's not too much trouble, which parts of what is written above is Piper's, which part is O'Brien's, and which parts are yours? Actually, if you could just point out yours and Dr. O'Brien's, that would be great (I have a copy of Piper's comments).

Thanks

~Deut
p.s. - in case you are interested, here is an interesting continuation of Piper's, "I saw three things in a fresh light".

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I wanted to ask a question, out of curiosity, since all the accusation keeps popping up.
I was curious to know how does a TULIP believer have assurance that they are the elect, and not someone who will come out from among the elect and not continue in the faith later? What is actually being taught in that regard?

Anyone who shares the beliefs is welcome to answer... @Grandpa @Deuteronomy or others...

I keep thinking that for some, the religious framework of a denomination they encountered, or experiences they had with a specific congregation, might caused them doubts and fears about their own election, and when this happens, people sometimes become bitter and things they say may be a reaction because they're genuinely upset that such a thing happened to them and may happen to others. Then they become overzealous in warning against it, and they genuinely believe it's a righteous cause. That might be what's going on and I think there's a need for forgiveness, and healing...

If I only had your quotes above that would be sufficient. Yes this is what I'm saying . Calvinists are focusing on works as evidence ,which is the focus of perseverance of the saints . And yes they will say it is God working in them as I've said.

This is a great point .

Hello SoulWeaver, the only way that a Calvinist or an Arminian can know if they are numbered among God's elect is, first and foremost, by coming to saving faith in the Lord Jesus.

So the question then becomes (for both Calvinists and Arminians), how can I have assurance that I am truly saved Again (for both Calvinist and Arminian), that evidence comes in many forms. For instance, the inward witness of the Spirit, the change that we see in our desires (and therefore in our choices) to please God and to live for Him (instead of just for ourselves), to not sin like we used to (at least), and to be grieved, repent and seek forgiveness whenever we do (sin), the choice we make to live a holy, rather than a sinful life, etc., and finally, that we persevere in the faith (albeit imperfectly) until we are on our deathbeds. Even if we walk away and into sin for a time during our lives, the Lord will see all of His true/adopted children/His "elect", safely back to Him before our days are over. We persevere to the end because of Him, because He makes sure that we do .. e.g. 1 Thessalonians 5:23-24; Hebrews 7:25; Jude 24-25.

You might also like to read what The Westminster Confession of Faith has to say about the assurance of salvation, as this (again) is what Calvinism officially teaches and why (at least, in part), if that is what you are interested in knowing.

3. This infallible assurance doth not so belong to the essence of faith, but that a true believer may wait long, and conflict with many difficulties before he be partaker of it:a yet, being enabled by the Spirit to know the things which are freely given him of God, he may, without extraordinary revelation, in the right use of ordinary means, attain thereunto.b And therefore it is the duty of everyone to give all diligence to make his calling and election sure;c that thereby his heart may be enlarged in peace and joy in the Holy Ghost, in love and thankfulness to God, and in strength and cheerfulness in the duties of obedience,d the proper fruits of this assurance: so far is it from inclining men to looseness.e​

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God bless you!

~Deut
p.s. - just FYI, I am part of the Evangelical Free Church of America. Like the SBC (who followed us in this) we hold what might be referred to as an agnostic position (as a denomination) on Calvinism and Arminianism, 1. because we believe that a pretty thorough Biblical defense can be made for both systematic theologies, and 2. because this debate has be raging for hundreds of years and we do not believe the answer will be found (as to which one is true) in this life.

Interestingly, we stopped having the kind of infighting that we see around here (between Arminians and Calvinists), and are having productive discussions now instead (most times anyway ). Most in my church are pretty well versed about what is actually taught on both sides now, as they are free to chose (as they believe the Lord is leading them) between Arminianism and Calvinism (and just FYI, both our pastorate and our elder board are split 50/50 right now between the two systematic theologies, and no problems have arisen as a result .. so far ).

I have more that I'd like to ask you/talk to you about, but I'm afraid that it's going to have to wait until later, as I've gotta go right now. Talk to you then (Dv).

~Deut

I appreciate your respectful and considered responses .
I looked at your response earlier : /////
So the question then becomes (for both Calvinists and Arminians), how can I have assurance that I am truly saved Again (for both Calvinist and Arminian), that evidence comes in many forms. For instance, the inward witness of the Spirit, the change that we see in our desires (and therefore in our choices) to please God and to live for Him (instead of just for ourselves), to not sin like we used to (at least), and to be grieved, repent and seek forgiveness whenever we do (sin), the choice we make to live a holy, rather than a sinful life, etc., and finally, that we persevere in the faith (albeit imperfectly) ///until we are on our deathbeds. Even if we walk away and into sin for a time during our lives, the Lord will see all of His true/adopted children/His "elect", safely back to Him before our days are over. We persevere to the end because of Him, because He makes sure that we do .. e.g. 1 Thessalonians 5:23-24; Hebrews 7:25; Jude 24-////_

Just some points of discussion.
I appreciated you highlighting that you are referring to ' Calvinism and Arminism ' . For me I see them as similar in many ways ( essentially it's a ' in house ' debate but they both come from the same arena.
I contend both systems ( calvinism and Armins ) are both teaching error on Lordship salvation . I agree with your first point about the 'inner witness 'if you mean ' 4For as many as are led by the Spirit of God, they are the sons of God.
15For ye have not received the spirit of bondage again to fear; but ye have received the Spirit of adoption, whereby we cry, Abba, Father.
16The Spirit itself beareth witness with our spirit, that we are the children of God: ( rom 8 )
what would be the verses that say or speak on /////the change that we see in our desires (and therefore in our choices) to please God and to live for Him (instead of just for ourselves), to not sin like we used to (at least), and to be grieved, repent and seek forgiveness whenever we do (sin), the choice we make to live a holy, rather than a sinful life, etc., and finally, that we persevere in the faith (albeit imperfectly) //// I get that I can read the west minster confession ect but of course that is a system not the bible ( I appreciate Calvinists believe that confessions are helpful and are based on the bible . From my position I'm just seeing ' Perseverance the saints 'the doctrine . And 'Lordship salvation '.
Especially when you say // until we are on our deathbeds. Even if we walk away and into sin for a time during our lives, the Lord will see all of His true/adopted children/His "elect", safely back to Him before our days are over. We persevere to the end because of Him, because He makes sure that we do .. e.g. 1 /// This would be my point of contention ,and where I would see the issues of Lordship salvation come in . We should recognise listening to Calvinst preachers the emphasis they are placing on fruit , works , enduring , persevering, ect ( especially from Paul washer and John piper , nearly weeping and with such zeal about sin and the believers perseverance and such ,and marvel when they hold to 'Election to salvation ' . They sound like the Arminian who is doing the same . What gives? why is an elect person so caught up on sin , persevering in good works, enduring ect when all is well with an 'elect '? why ? because they don't know . Jesus did not die for everyone , Jesus did not raise for everyone..It wasn't their faith that believed according to the system .How could they know they are not the one who God has detemined to be a reprobate ?
How I would answer 'how can we know '? is by the scriptures and not on my 'Election ' or my performance , works , perseverance or endurance . All of which the Mormons , Jehovah witnesses ect would put us to shame on .
1 John 5 These things have I written unto you that believe on the name of the Son of God; that ye may know that ye have eternal life, and that ye may believe on the name of the Son of God.

@Deuteronomy I just want to say that I really appreciated you taking time for a thorough response. It was read very carefully. I will respond with more words tomorrow.

I think all of us. Whether we believe in tulip or not rest our assurance on Christ and his promises. Not in how good we are or how faithful we will be. If we rely on self. That is no assurance at all. That is why those who tend to look towards self tend to believe salvation can be lost. I know I have heard grandpa and others say this also

I was saved by the Lord Jesus Christ before I started studying Salvation and theology.

It was by the scriptures being opened to me AFTER Salvation and study and prayer that I came to understand the tenets of Calvinism and later TULIP.

I know I am saved. And I know it was the Lord who saved me. Not my intellect. Not my wisdom. Not my great ability at making choices.

A "tulip" believer understands that perseverance is given by God and won't be taken away. Salvation is Gods gift and as such is irrevocable.

Ephesians 2:8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:
Romans 11:29 For the gifts and calling of God are without repentance.


I don't really have any emotional attachment to Calvinism or TULIP. I view them as a way to understand Salvation and theology. I don't have any problems with the way it is presented or the scripture that supports it. If a better theology comes out with better scripture support I am happy to entertain it.

See the difficulty is lines like this interspersed in their explanations.

"And therefore it is the duty of everyone to give all diligence to make his calling and election sure"

Assurance of salvation comes from the promises of God and they are recorded in His word and the spirit testifying to our Spirit.
The doctrine of OSAS does not hinge on any future performance, whereas the doctrine of "perseverance" does.
OSAS the person is saved period when justified, there is no conflating of discipleship and sanctification with justification.

To understand the tenets of TULIP one must go back to the author of the doctrine John Calvin, his understanding of scripture, who he was as a man and what influenced him.... the Westminster Confession just codified it.

once again, this is not true

you do not understand anything apart from your own ideas about it and those ideas are wrong

a Calvinist, as has been proven mulitple times by even Calvinists on this site, believe they are saved, expect to stay saved and believe God keeps them

and you are supplying wrong answers to people. they need to back up and read what has been written by actual Calvinists and that includes sites run by Calvinists

@SoulWeaver

I think also if we look at the Canons of Dort we can see why @throughfaith is making this assertion.

Assurance of their eternal and unchangeable election to salvation is given to the chosen in due time, though by various stages and in differing measure. Such assurance comes not by inquisitive searching into the hidden and deep things of God, but by noticing within themselves, with spiritual joy and holy delight, the unmistakable fruits of election pointed out in God’s Word—such as a true faith in Christ, a childlike fear of God, a godly sorrow for their sins, a hunger and thirst for righteousness, and so on.

https://www.crcna.org/welcome/beliefs/confessions/canons-dort
This is Reformed Theology
........the difficulty is they will turn around and also state it is all God's work as well.

In essence assurance is placed on a very unbalanced ground.

"Looking to oneself" for evidence/assurance is very prevalent in many teachers who lean towards Calvinism or who are Five Point Calvinists.