Calvinist Kitchen...stirring the pot

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EleventhHour

Guest
just came 'in' - over viewing +
please tell hub and me and everyone else WHY ya'll just keep beating the same ole dead-horse???
haven't ya'll 'learned anything from each other??? - or is this just a place to make $$$ and
keep the un-learned coming back for 'more-more-more' of the same/repetitive, baiting
un-profitable, (to some) routine?????????????

see (BAN again in our future) -LOL
hay, it's all good/not good! just know that we Love and cherish our Brethern,
like ya'll don't know this already?...of course many don't, but those that do, we say,
'Great peace have they who Love Thy Law, and nothing shall offend them'.
:):)
I really have never considered TRUTH to be a dead horse myself.
 
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EleventhHour

Guest
Calvin had nothing to do with tulip, your posts declare you are ignorant of church history and scripture
TULIP and Calvinism are one and the same according to their own web sites.

It began within the theological faculty of a Dutch institution that was committed to Calvinistic teaching. Link

In 1618, the Calvinists of the Dutch Reformed Church convened the Synod of Dort in order to condemn the Arminians and their five points. Dort's "five heads" of doctrine were later rearranged under the acronym TULIP. Link
 
I have yet to see a single adherent/promoter of TULIP make a case for T, U, L, I, or P... although no really knows what the P really means since it is both God preserves and man must persevere or one is not really saved, which seems contradictory to me.

So far it has all been eisegesis.

Tell me, Jesus states He came to seek and save that which was lost. I read no qualifier .... are not all men lost before saved?

If God only chose/preselected only a few of the lost to be saved, then God/Jesus is seeking someone whom God assigned to hell.
That is a conflict.
Hello 11th hour;
Consider this:
http://vor.org/truth/1689/1689bc00.html

All Men are not lost.
Jesus is speaking of Ezk34:
11 For thus saith the Lord God; Behold, I, even I, will both search my sheep, and seek them out.
12 As a shepherd seeketh out his flock in the day that he is among his sheep that are scattered; so will I seek out my sheep, and will deliver them out of all places where they have been scattered in the cloudy and dark day.


He has Sheep, given to Him by the Father...He comes to seek and save His sheep...not goats.
17 times in Ezk34 God says He will seek out His sheep,

Jesus is the Good Shepherd..Jn10...

lk19:
9 And Jesus said unto him, This day is salvation come to this house, for so much as he also is a son of Abraham.
10 For the Son of man is come to seek and to save that which was lost.
 

ForestGreenCook

Well-known member
Jul 8, 2018
8,441
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Oh I have read very careful. I do not change the meaning of words to fit my system.

6 Then the Lord sent venomous snakes among them; they bit the people and many Israelites died. 7 The people came to Moses and said, “We sinned when we spoke against the Lord and against you. Pray that the Lord will take the snakes away from us.” So Moses prayed for the people.
8 The Lord said to Moses, “Make a snake and put it up on a pole; anyone who is bitten can look at it and live.” 9 So Moses made a bronze snake and put it up on a pole. Then when anyone was bitten by a snake and looked at the bronze snake, they lived.
Numbers 21

I do not read two classes of people?
The invitation is to anyone... it does not state the regenerated... and it certainly does not state they were regenerated before they looked up.

This dogma of "particular atonement" irresistible regeneration" and the denial of the invitation to "anyone" for salvation is heresy equal in my mind to the denial of the divinity of Jesus Christ.

And you find comfort in it?
You need to do much more serious studying girl. These people that God is chastening with snake bites are God's elect people that were captive in Egypt, that God caused Pharaoh to release them because of the plagues. The same people of God who wandered for 40 years in the wilderness, before God let the younger generation enter into Cannon, the land of milk and honey. The bold words that you have listed are children of God, not all mankind.

You do not even realise that "Israel" mentioned in Numbers 21:2 is actually Jacob, of whom God changed his name to Israel in Gen 33:28.

I have sympathy for you in realising that the truths of Christ's doctrine are hidden from most of his regenerated children, and a good part of the time it is because the person thinks that they can understand it by their own entelect, and if the Holy Spirit, within them, would revealed it to them,in that frame of mind, they would take credit for themselves, instead of giving God credit.
 
E

EleventhHour

Guest
Hello 11th hour;
Consider this:
http://vor.org/truth/1689/1689bc00.html

All Men are not lost.
Jesus is speaking of Ezk34:
11 For thus saith the Lord God; Behold, I, even I, will both search my sheep, and seek them out.
12 As a shepherd seeketh out his flock in the day that he is among his sheep that are scattered; so will I seek out my sheep, and will deliver them out of all places where they have been scattered in the cloudy and dark day.


He has Sheep, given to Him by the Father...He comes to seek and save His sheep...not goats.
17 times in Ezk34 God says He will seek out His sheep,

Jesus is the Good Shepherd..Jn10...

lk19:
9 And Jesus said unto him, This day is salvation come to this house, for so much as he also is a son of Abraham.
10 For the Son of man is come to seek and to save that which was lost.

More eisegesis.
Seems to me that if He is seeking ... salvation is an offer.

Did Jesus say that He has come to seek and to save that which is pre-selected? No

If it were true only for the pre-selected, seems ironic that He has to seek them out, especially in light of of irresistible regeneration?
 
E

EleventhHour

Guest
You need to do much more serious studying girl. These people that God is chastening with snake bites are God's elect people that were captive in Egypt, that God caused Pharaoh to release them because of the plagues. The same people of God who wandered for 40 years in the wilderness, before God let the younger generation enter into Cannon, the land of milk and honey. The bold words that you have listed are children of God, not all mankind.

You do not even realise that "Israel" mentioned in Numbers 21:2 is actually Jacob, of whom God changed his name to Israel in Gen 33:28.

I have sympathy for you in realising that the truths of Christ's doctrine are hidden from most of his regenerated children, and a good part of the time it is because the person thinks that they can understand it by their own entelect, and if the Holy Spirit, within them, would revealed it to them,in that frame of mind, they would take credit for themselves, instead of giving God credit.

The bold words that you have listed are children of God, not all mankind.
I never stated it was for all mankind with regards to the bronze serpent, I stated it was a comparison by John.

The comparison is made to the Israelite being told to look at the bronze snake. (John 3: 14-16)
It does not state the preselected were told to look at the bronze snake, it states "anyone"

Neither is John 3:16 for the preselected of the world... it states "world"

Have no worries I may only know a little, but I sure know what you preach is not scriptural.
 
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EleventhHour

Guest
Calvin had nothing to do with tulip, your posts declare you are ignorant of church history and scripture
Without John Calvin ... we would not have the problem of TULIP.
 

Nehemiah6

Senior Member
Jul 18, 2017
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Without John Calvin ... we would not have the problem of TULIP.
"Calvinism is the theological system associated with the Reformer John Calvin that emphasizes the rule of God over all things as reflected in its understanding of Scripture, God, humanity, salvation, and the church. In popular vernacular, Calvinism often refers to the Five Points of Calvinistic doctrine regarding salvation, which make up the acrostic TULIP. In its broader sense, Calvinism is associated with Reformed theology."
https://www.theopedia.com/calvinism


Whereas all the Reformers subscribed to Reformed Theology, Calvin stands out as the main proponent of Calvinism (TULIP).
 
Aug 10, 2020
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Speaking of limited atonement.... that is honestly the LEAST likely of T.U.L.I.P
SUBSTITUTIONARY ATONEMENT
According to the Scriptures, sin must be paid for.1 When Jesus Christ died, he suffered as a substitute in the place of and on behalf of fallen humanity. Christ's death made it possible for men and women to be declared righteous, based on their faith in Him.2 Christ's death was not merely a statement against evil or an expression of love, but a payment that satisfied God's demand. Christ's death was necessary for several reasons.
First, sin alienates us from God.3 Those who are controlled by sin cannot please God.4 Jesus Christ's death made peace with God possible.5 Christ came, not just to provide us with a godly example, but to die on our behalf and to bear the cost for sin.6
Second, God is holy.7 God's holy character requires that sin be punished.8 Sin makes us the objects of God's wrath until the penalty of sin is paid.9 By laying down His own life, Jesus paid the price on our behalf, satisfying God's demand.10 This payment was made, not to Satan, but God.11
Third, the presence of sin renders us helpless.12 We cannot save ourselves.13 We do not have the will or the ability to offer anything acceptable to God on our own behalf.14 We not only suffer from the guilt and penalty of Adam's original sin, but also from the effects of our own sinful nature and actions.15
God, who is rich in mercy, sent Jesus Christ to die in our place, so that He might be righteous in dealing with sin while at the same time providing His own righteousness to those who believe in Jesus Christ.16 Christ's death was more than an attempt to reverse the human course started by Adam; it served as a substitute payment for the trespasses of all mankind.
1 Romans 6:23; 1 Peter 1:18, 19
2 Matthew 20:28; Romans 3:21; 2 Corinthians 5:21
3 Ephesians 2:12
4 Romans 8:5–8
5 Colossians 1:20–21
6 Galatians 3:13
7 1 John 1:5
8 Romans 3:4, 24–26
9 Romans 1:18; 6:23
10 John 10:17, 18; 2 Peter 2:1
11 Matthew 20:28
12 Romans 3:10–12
13 Romans 3:20, 28
14 John 1:13; Ephesians 2:1–5
15 Romans 5:12–15; 6:6; Romans 3:23
16 Romans 3:23–26
https://www.moodybible.org/beliefs/positional-statements/substitutionary-atonement/
 

NOV25

Well-known member
Nov 23, 2019
995
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I marvel that ye are so soon removed from him that called you into the grace of Christ unto another gospel: Which is not another; but there be some that trouble you, and would pervert the gospel of Christ. But though we, or an angel from heaven, preach any other gospel unto you than that which we have preached unto you, let him be accursed.
 
May 31, 2020
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I marvel that ye are so soon removed from him that called you into the grace of Christ unto another gospel: Which is not another; but there be some that trouble you, and would pervert the gospel of Christ. But though we, or an angel from heaven, preach any other gospel unto you than that which we have preached unto you, let him be accursed.
I encourage you to heed Paul’s warning.
 
More eisegesis.
Seems to me that if He is seeking ... salvation is an offer.

Did Jesus say that He has come to seek and to save that which is pre-selected? No

If it were true only for the pre-selected, seems ironic that He has to seek them out, especially in light of of irresistible regeneration?
If you cannot read Ezk.34 with understanding that is on you...

God the Father has given a multitude of people, He seeks and saves them.
From the 1689
Chapter 3: Of God's Decree
1._____ God hath decreed in himself, from all eternity, by the most wise and holy counsel of his own will, freely and unchangeably, all things, whatsoever comes to pass; yet so as thereby is God neither the author of sin nor hath fellowship with any therein; nor is violence offered to the will of the creature, nor yet is the liberty or contingency of second causes taken away, but rather established; in which appears his wisdom in disposing all things, and power and faithfulness in accomplishing his decree.
( Isaiah 46:10; Ephesians 1:11; Hebrews 6:17; Romans 9:15, 18; James 1:13; 1 John 1:5; Acts 4:27, 28; John 19:11; Numbers 23:19; Ephesians 1:3-5 )
2._____ Although God knoweth whatsoever may or can come to pass, upon all supposed conditions, yet hath he not decreed anything, because he foresaw it as future, or as that which would come to pass upon such conditions.
( Acts 15:18; Romans 9:11, 13, 16, 18 )
3._____ By the decree of God, for the manifestation of his glory, some men and angels are predestinated, or foreordained to eternal life through Jesus Christ, to the praise of his glorious grace; others being left to act in their sin to their just condemnation, to the praise of his glorious justice.
( 1 Timothy 5:21; Matthew 25:34; Ephesians 1:5, 6; Romans 9:22, 23; Jude 4 )
4.______These angels and men thus predestinated and foreordained, are particularly and unchangeably designed, and their number so certain and definite, that it cannot be either increased or diminished.
( 2 Timothy 2:19; John 13:18 )
5._____ Those of mankind that are predestinated to life, God, before the foundation of the world was laid, according to his eternal and immutable purpose, and the secret counsel and good pleasure of his will, hath chosen in Christ unto everlasting glory, out of his mere free grace and love, without any other thing in the creature as a condition or cause moving him thereunto.
( Ephesians 1:4, 9, 11; Romans 8:30; 2 Timothy 1:9; 1 Thessalonians 5:9; Romans 9:13, 16; Ephesians 2:5, 12 )
6._____ As God hath appointed the elect unto glory, so he hath, by the eternal and most free purpose of his will, foreordained all the means thereunto; wherefore they who are elected, being fallen in Adam, are redeemed by Christ, are effectually called unto faith in Christ, by his Spirit working in due season, are justified, adopted, sanctified, and kept by his power through faith unto salvation; neither are any other redeemed by Christ, or effectually called, justified, adopted, sanctified, and saved, but the elect only.
( 1 Peter 1:2; 2 Thessalonians 2:13; 1 Thessalonians 5:9, 10; Romans 8:30; 2 Thessalonians 2:13; 1 Peter 1:5; John 10:26; John 17:9; John 6:64 )
7._____ The doctrine of the high mystery of predestination is to be handled with special prudence and care, that men attending the will of God revealed in his Word, and yielding obedience thereunto, may, from the certainty of their effectual vocation, be assured of their eternal election; so shall this doctrine afford matter of praise, reverence, and admiration of God, and of humility, diligence, and abundant consolation to all that sincerely obey the gospel.
( 1 Thessalonians 1:4, 5; 2 Peter 1:10; Ephesians 1:6; Romans 11:33; Romans 11:5, 6, 20; Luke 10:20 )
 
E

EleventhHour

Guest
I marvel that ye are so soon removed from him that called you into the grace of Christ unto another gospel: Which is not another; but there be some that trouble you, and would pervert the gospel of Christ. But though we, or an angel from heaven, preach any other gospel unto you than that which we have preached unto you, let him be accursed.
Calvinism
perverts the gospel of Christ
.

But we see Jesus, who was made a little lower than the angels, for the suffering of death crowned with glory and honor, that He, by the grace of God, might taste death for everyone.
Hebrews 2:9
 
Mar 28, 2016
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This has absolutely nothing to do with a false ideology from a man, then ultimately named after a flower by proselytes and then being peddled by men and women as gospel truth.

Calvinism is false.

God would have ALL MEN BE SAVED and come to the KNOWLEDGE of the truth.......Not just the hyper religious followers of Calvin and the man made gospel equated to a Tulip!!!
Calvin is dead. We have the same scriptures he had.

Yes all as in a "as many" as the father gave His power to believe. (Those he gave to the Son) .Those not given the power of faith remained powerless. No faith not little none. If you begin with nothing, nothing changes nothing.
 
Mar 28, 2016
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I have yet to see a single adherent/promoter of TULIP make a case for T, U, L, I, or P... although no really knows what the P really means since it is both God preserves and man must persevere or one is not really saved, which seems contradictory to me.

So far it has all been eisegesis.

Tell me, Jesus states He came to seek and save that which was lost. I read no qualifier .... are not all men lost before saved?

If God only chose/preselected only a few of the lost to be saved, then God/Jesus is seeking someone whom God assigned to hell.
That is a conflict.
The whole human race is assigned to hell. The living sufferings of this life . Its the wage of sin for violating the letter of the law, (death) Christians yoked with Christ make the load of sufferings lighter being strengthened by the father .
 
May 31, 2020
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If you cannot read Ezk.34 with understanding that is on you...

God the Father has given a multitude of people, He seeks and saves them.
From the 1689
Chapter 3: Of God's Decree
1._____ God hath decreed in himself, from all eternity, by the most wise and holy counsel of his own will, freely and unchangeably, all things, whatsoever comes to pass; yet so as thereby is God neither the author of sin nor hath fellowship with any therein; nor is violence offered to the will of the creature, nor yet is the liberty or contingency of second causes taken away, but rather established; in which appears his wisdom in disposing all things, and power and faithfulness in accomplishing his decree.
( Isaiah 46:10; Ephesians 1:11; Hebrews 6:17; Romans 9:15, 18; James 1:13; 1 John 1:5; Acts 4:27, 28; John 19:11; Numbers 23:19; Ephesians 1:3-5 )
2._____ Although God knoweth whatsoever may or can come to pass, upon all supposed conditions, yet hath he not decreed anything, because he foresaw it as future, or as that which would come to pass upon such conditions.
( Acts 15:18; Romans 9:11, 13, 16, 18 )
3._____ By the decree of God, for the manifestation of his glory, some men and angels are predestinated, or foreordained to eternal life through Jesus Christ, to the praise of his glorious grace; others being left to act in their sin to their just condemnation, to the praise of his glorious justice.
( 1 Timothy 5:21; Matthew 25:34; Ephesians 1:5, 6; Romans 9:22, 23; Jude 4 )
4.______These angels and men thus predestinated and foreordained, are particularly and unchangeably designed, and their number so certain and definite, that it cannot be either increased or diminished.
( 2 Timothy 2:19; John 13:18 )
5._____ Those of mankind that are predestinated to life, God, before the foundation of the world was laid, according to his eternal and immutable purpose, and the secret counsel and good pleasure of his will, hath chosen in Christ unto everlasting glory, out of his mere free grace and love, without any other thing in the creature as a condition or cause moving him thereunto.
( Ephesians 1:4, 9, 11; Romans 8:30; 2 Timothy 1:9; 1 Thessalonians 5:9; Romans 9:13, 16; Ephesians 2:5, 12 )
6._____ As God hath appointed the elect unto glory, so he hath, by the eternal and most free purpose of his will, foreordained all the means thereunto; wherefore they who are elected, being fallen in Adam, are redeemed by Christ, are effectually called unto faith in Christ, by his Spirit working in due season, are justified, adopted, sanctified, and kept by his power through faith unto salvation; neither are any other redeemed by Christ, or effectually called, justified, adopted, sanctified, and saved, but the elect only.
( 1 Peter 1:2; 2 Thessalonians 2:13; 1 Thessalonians 5:9, 10; Romans 8:30; 2 Thessalonians 2:13; 1 Peter 1:5; John 10:26; John 17:9; John 6:64 )
7._____ The doctrine of the high mystery of predestination is to be handled with special prudence and care, that men attending the will of God revealed in his Word, and yielding obedience thereunto, may, from the certainty of their effectual vocation, be assured of their eternal election; so shall this doctrine afford matter of praise, reverence, and admiration of God, and of humility, diligence, and abundant consolation to all that sincerely obey the gospel.
( 1 Thessalonians 1:4, 5; 2 Peter 1:10; Ephesians 1:6; Romans 11:33; Romans 11:5, 6, 20; Luke 10:20 )
If this means Democrats, liberals, BLM and Antifa are hell bound then I’m cool with it.
 
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