I'm well aware of that, and I didn't mean to imply that one was chosen over another. More that some He seems to go to much greater lengths to persuade than others. God was very persistent with me in such a way that I simply cannot deny that I was chosen to believe. It seems to me God could give the proof that men demand if He so chose yet He only provides it to some and not others. Some live very hard lives that would make it so easy to not believe in a good God. No one chooses the circumstances of their own lives, and no one makes choices in a vacuum. The knowledge God has of each individual means He could shape their lives so they couldn't possibly deny Him without doing violence to their will.
Calvinism and Context?
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I didn't know that you could divide a man from his writings and teachings.
But on another note, I noticed very sparse response to this posting of yours. I will answer.
The answer to your question is exactly what the verse says. There is no talk of divine predestination. The context is the Bread of Life being presented to men dead in their sins. And we all know that a dead man is helpless to follow any course of activity. The word "draw" in the Greek, "helkyõ", differs from "syro" in that it indicates a gentle drawing as opposed to a forceful dragging. A fisherman "draws" the net full of fish to the side of the boat, but then, because of the weight of fish, "drags" the net forcefully on board. Men, dead in their sins are gently "drawn" to the source of LIFE - Christ, by the Father. Does not the implication of "gentle drawing" defeat Calvin. His doctrine is based on a FORCEFUL act!
Biblehub give Calvin's commentary on this verse. Let us see how he gets around this. Quote Biblehub:
Do you perceive the difficulty he must get around? He must, in one breath, own (i) that the "drawing" is not forceful but (ii) that men are all unwilling. Calvin must persuade us that an unwilling man can be "gently drawn" against his will? But where is "predestination"? He rightly uses the word "election" in the previous sentence, but scripture pointedly says that "election" is based ON FOREKNOWLEDGE not predestination. And when it comes to "predestination" in Romans 8:29, it FOLLOWS "Foreknowledge". The predestination is not to be SAVED! The predestination is what those CHOSEN in foreknowledge are for - to be conformed to the image of Christ. Calvin must leave this out. He must leave out the word "foreknowledge" because that IMPLIES that God KNEW that some men would embrace Jesus, and that some men would not. God is sovereign. If He has foreknowledge that a man will curse Him, He does not have to draw the man. That makes Him servant and not Sovereign.
* Israel is our picture. They are SAVED by the Lamb. But this salvation is NOT for Egypt. It is for a Land far away. The wilderness is the transforming work (Deut.8:1-8). The old generation perish and the new who keep the Law INHERIT Canaan. Israel were not predestined for the blood of the Lamb. Every Egyptian could have slain a lamb and painted his door with blood. But they hated the God of Israel. Israel are no better. they worship idols with the Egyptians. But they obey and are saved. But their salvation is not for itself. It is for a far Land.
But on another note, I noticed very sparse response to this posting of yours. I will answer.
The answer to your question is exactly what the verse says. There is no talk of divine predestination. The context is the Bread of Life being presented to men dead in their sins. And we all know that a dead man is helpless to follow any course of activity. The word "draw" in the Greek, "helkyõ", differs from "syro" in that it indicates a gentle drawing as opposed to a forceful dragging. A fisherman "draws" the net full of fish to the side of the boat, but then, because of the weight of fish, "drags" the net forcefully on board. Men, dead in their sins are gently "drawn" to the source of LIFE - Christ, by the Father. Does not the implication of "gentle drawing" defeat Calvin. His doctrine is based on a FORCEFUL act!
Biblehub give Calvin's commentary on this verse. Let us see how he gets around this. Quote Biblehub:
Do you perceive the difficulty he must get around? He must, in one breath, own (i) that the "drawing" is not forceful but (ii) that men are all unwilling. Calvin must persuade us that an unwilling man can be "gently drawn" against his will? But where is "predestination"? He rightly uses the word "election" in the previous sentence, but scripture pointedly says that "election" is based ON FOREKNOWLEDGE not predestination. And when it comes to "predestination" in Romans 8:29, it FOLLOWS "Foreknowledge". The predestination is not to be SAVED! The predestination is what those CHOSEN in foreknowledge are for - to be conformed to the image of Christ. Calvin must leave this out. He must leave out the word "foreknowledge" because that IMPLIES that God KNEW that some men would embrace Jesus, and that some men would not. God is sovereign. If He has foreknowledge that a man will curse Him, He does not have to draw the man. That makes Him servant and not Sovereign.
- God views all men equal in grace
- God prepares a Saving Work
- All men are too weak to respond
- Some men will despise and hate God. God leaves them in their weakness.
- Some men will respond, but remain weak. God draws them
- Of those men that God knew would embrace Him, He calls
- Of those men called, they are then predestined for another purpose - to be transformed into the image of Christ
- Of those men called, they are then predestined for an Inheritance - co heirs with Christ
* Israel is our picture. They are SAVED by the Lamb. But this salvation is NOT for Egypt. It is for a Land far away. The wilderness is the transforming work (Deut.8:1-8). The old generation perish and the new who keep the Law INHERIT Canaan. Israel were not predestined for the blood of the Lamb. Every Egyptian could have slain a lamb and painted his door with blood. But they hated the God of Israel. Israel are no better. they worship idols with the Egyptians. But they obey and are saved. But their salvation is not for itself. It is for a far Land.
See i would just see it simply as . The Father attracts people to the Son before the cross . After the cross Jesus is the one who draws all men . And the Holy Spirit does not draw anyone .
Predestination is simply after the person believes, God predestines that person to future Glorification . ( Eternal security ) Election is something different. it is do with 'service ' .
Predestination is simply after the person believes, God predestines that person to future Glorification . ( Eternal security ) Election is something different. it is do with 'service ' .
Put the passage into context. Lets not chop out part of the verse to form a pretext which is not consistent with the whole counsel of God.
Titus 2:11 ¶ For the grace of God that bringeth salvation hath appeared to all men,
12 Teaching us that, denying ungodliness and worldly lusts, we should live soberly, righteously, and godly, in this present world;
13 Looking for that blessed hope, and the glorious appearing of the great God and our Saviour Jesus Christ;
14 Who gave himself for us, that he might redeem us from all iniquity, and purify unto himself a peculiar people, zealous of good works.
15 ¶ These things speak, and exhort, and rebuke with all authority. Let no man despise thee.
The grace of God hath appeared to all men. The grace of God bringeth salvation not the will of man. God saves no man against mans own will. Mans will must be submitted to Gods will in the matter of salvation.
For the cause of Christ
Roger
Titus 2:11 ¶ For the grace of God that bringeth salvation hath appeared to all men,
12 Teaching us that, denying ungodliness and worldly lusts, we should live soberly, righteously, and godly, in this present world;
13 Looking for that blessed hope, and the glorious appearing of the great God and our Saviour Jesus Christ;
14 Who gave himself for us, that he might redeem us from all iniquity, and purify unto himself a peculiar people, zealous of good works.
15 ¶ These things speak, and exhort, and rebuke with all authority. Let no man despise thee.
The grace of God hath appeared to all men. The grace of God bringeth salvation not the will of man. God saves no man against mans own will. Mans will must be submitted to Gods will in the matter of salvation.
For the cause of Christ
Roger
you're right, Titus 2:11 says the grace of God brings salvation and has appeared to all men.
@Nehemiah6 who i thought was a KJV-only man, seems to have been quoting the NIV here?
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no friend; you're quite wrong. you are abusing language, eisegetically redefining words.
what you're describing is rightly called 'postdestination'
"pre-" means "before"
"post-" means "after"
the scripture says He predestined us, not He postdestined us.
the Word describes God as the causative agent, The Beginning and The End; you're describe your self as the origin.
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besides the abuse of vocabulary i covered in the previous post . . .
or do you put your belief at step 0? did you believe before God even knew it?
For whom He foreknew, He also predestined to be conformed to the image of His Son, that He might be the firstborn among many brethren. Moreover whom He predestined, these He also called; whom He called, these He also justified; and whom He justified, these He also glorified.
(Romans 8:29-30)
is this an order of events being described?(Romans 8:29-30)
- omniscience
- predestination
- calling
- justification
- glorification
or do you put your belief at step 0? did you believe before God even knew it?
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I quoted the KJV to prove to you that your false idea of sovereignty over grace opposes the Gospel. It is an anti-Gospel idea since the grace of God does bring salvation to all men, not just a few of the so-called "elect". Of course I do not expect this simple truth to sink in, when you have been indoctrinated into the doctrines of men. It is almost impossible for those who believe false gospels to return to the true Gospel.
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what in the world are you talking about? do you even know what you're talking about?
if God is not sovereign, His grace is meaningless. these qualities are inextricably linked. it is because of His sovereignty that His grace is able to save! the sovereignty of "the Almighty" is not 'opposed' to grace; it's essential to it!
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you copy-pasted it into a post, yes, but then when you spoke from your own heart, you quoted the NIV, here:
the KJV reads that the grace of God bringeth salvation.
the KJV reads that this grace has appeared to all men.
what you just said, "bring salvation to all men" indicates universal salvation, and it's not what Titus 2:11 says.
God says His grace has appeared to all men, and that it carries salvation with it. not all men are saved; salvation does not come to all men, but only to those who believe. grace appears even to those who do not believe, and are condemned already.
the KJV reads that the grace of God bringeth salvation.
the KJV reads that this grace has appeared to all men.
what you just said, "bring salvation to all men" indicates universal salvation, and it's not what Titus 2:11 says.
God says His grace has appeared to all men, and that it carries salvation with it. not all men are saved; salvation does not come to all men, but only to those who believe. grace appears even to those who do not believe, and are condemned already.
The Greek reads "has appeared the grace of God bringing salvation to all men." There's some ambiguity as Greek syntax is not as important as English syntax but the grammar of the Greek seems more amenable to linking all men with bringing salvation and has appeared with the grace of God. The idea is not that all men are saved through the bringing of salvation, but that all men are eligible for salvation through the grace of God.
The issue with a Calvinist doctrine of election is it doesn't work unless the grace of God isn't available to all men when the gospel in fact teaches it is.
The issue with a Calvinist doctrine of election is it doesn't work unless the grace of God isn't available to all men when the gospel in fact teaches it is.
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the point is that we posted links; we didn't actually make our own cases.
we might as well have been an advertising banner or a robot that generates spam.
the point is a person can find links that make some case and a person can also find links that make the opposite case. so the existence of webpages one can link to doesn't constitute any kind of persuasive argument.
we might as well have been an advertising banner or a robot that generates spam.
the point is a person can find links that make some case and a person can also find links that make the opposite case. so the existence of webpages one can link to doesn't constitute any kind of persuasive argument.
The first to plead his cause seems right,
until his neighbor comes and examines him.
(Proverbs 18:17)
until his neighbor comes and examines him.
(Proverbs 18:17)
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i mostly find it interesting that an adamant proponent of the idea that the NIV is authored by Satan and the KJV is more perfect than the Greek, would when putting what he understands about the scripture into his own word, repeat the phrasing of the NIV. he & i have both been members here for years, and yes i am guilty here of poking at him over it, tho i am not guilty of slander and i hope not guilty of coming to the discussion with maliciously bitter intent.
that not all are saved is beyond question; there is no need to pursue argument about it.
that God is not willing for any to perish but that all come to knowledge of the truth, there is likewise no question or need for argument.
that not all are saved is beyond question; there is no need to pursue argument about it.
that God is not willing for any to perish but that all come to knowledge of the truth, there is likewise no question or need for argument.
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