The Post Tribulation Rapture

I agree with most of what you have said and it is clear that the rapture will be after the tribulation. the Bible is plain. but can i ask you to examine how you look at prophesy.

There are 3 main interpretations...
Preterism = Seeing the prophesies in the distant past. (nothing beyond the 1st century)
Futurism = placing the prophesies in the future. (all at the end)
Historicism = Seeing the prophesies as they unfold (which means some are history, some are yet to happen).

Because Rome realized that the Reformation could jeopardize her position as a religio-political power, she employed five stratergies in what became known as the Counter Reformation. One of those strategies was the creation of futurism and preterism, two different interpretations of the prophecies in Daniel and Revelation. These interpretations contradicted the reformers' stance of historicism.

According to futurism, the Antichrist is still to come. According to preterism, the Antichrist was in the past. However, this is not Biblical, as Jesus spoke in Matthew 24 of the great apostasy taking place in the future. Both of these false systems disagree with the reformers’ belief that the fulfillment of Biblical prophecy is taking place throughout history.

Francisco Ribera
In 1585 Jesuit scholar Francisco Ribera (1537 - 1591) appears. He started the futurist interpretation by publishing a 500-page commentary on the book of Revelation. Ribera took the last “week” (seven day-years) of the 70 week prophesy of Daniel 9:25, divided it into two 3 ½ year periods, and applied it to a future Antichrist, while avoiding any application to the papal system.
Luis de Alcasar
The Jesuit scholar Luis de Alcasar was the creator preterism’s in 1604. His book, Investigation of the Hidden Sense of the Apocalypse, was published in 1614.

If you apply all the prophetic keys to the antichrist identified in prophesy, it fits perfectly with the papal system. They are gaining power today and their religion is being accepted by the protestant churches that fought so hard to be separated from them.

If you get a chance watch a you tube movie called "From Babylon to America, the prophetic movie" 2 hours, if you have time it is worth it.

They claim the Alexandrian text type is older, that isnt a settled fact

Fact is the early church didnt use or distribute the Alexandrian Text Type,it was localized to Egypt and from the philosophical schools of Clement, Origen, Arius

The Syrian text type 4th century, that aligns with the textus receptus was used and distributed.

It was the 19th century liberal community that promoted the Alexandrian text, Englands Westcott & Hort 1881 in their greek text was the beginning, in 1901 the American Standard Version hit American soil, and from there it has progressed.

As I stated all new versions, NIV, ESV, NASB,etc follow the Novum Testamentum Graece

Did God use those mentioned below to preserve his words for the world today, Big Smiles!

It was popularized in the Novum Testamentum Graece produced by (Kurt Aland) and his wife Barbara, that Kurt ran off with 22 years younger from his college classroom, and divorced his wife Ingeborg and children.
Throw in Roman Catholic Jesuit Cardinal and homosexual union supporter (Carlo Maria Martini)

So you would recommend the The Syrian text type 4th century to be used? Can NKJV be used instead of KJV, are they both textus receptus?

This is also confirmed by Rev 7v9,10,14:

"After these things I looked, and behold, a great multitude which no one could number, of all nations, tribes, peoples, and tongues, standing before the throne and before the Lamb, clothed with white robes, with palm branches in their hands, and crying out with a loud voice, saying, "Salvation belongs to our God who sits on the throne, and to the Lamb!"...These are the ones who come out of the great tribulation, and washed their robes and made them white in the blood of the Lamb. "

You have to "be in" something, before you can "come out of it!"

The (secret) pre-tribulation advent and rapture was never believed by the early Church, all the Church fathers believed the Church would suffer at the hands of Antichrist!

And indeed the Lord Jesus tells us that His second coming will not be secret or hidden, BUT every eye will see Him coming in glory, and that it is only false prophets and teachers who will teach a secret pre-tribulation advent and rapture. Rev 1v7, Matt 24v23-31, Titus 2v13.

He also shows the result in the believer who believes a (secret) pre-tribulation advent and rapture in Matt 24v48-51, the evil servant backslides and goes into apostasy!

it's a real trap to believe in a pre-trib. rapture because you don't need to prepare and you'll be unprepared when the hard times come. God is able to protect us from all trials but He also says our faith will be tried and tested.
Mat_5:10 Blessed are they which are persecuted for righteousness' sake: for theirs is the kingdom of heaven.
Mat_5:12 Rejoice, and be exceeding glad: for great is your reward in heaven: for so persecuted they the prophets which were before you.
Joh_15:20 Remember the word that I said unto you, The servant is not greater than his lord. If they have persecuted me, they will also persecute you; if they have kept my saying, they will keep yours also.

Thanks for your response!

I have been studying the scripture for 40+ years, I'm fully aware of the teachings in preterism, futurism, and historicism, and there foundations

I look to the Scripture, not to mans teaching, the Antichrist is a literal human man, that will be destroyed at the future Second Coming of Jesus Christ, the literal brightness of his coming. this didnt take place through history, caesar's, emperors, popes or in the preterist 1st century, it's a future event.

I believe scripture teaches Jerusalem is Mystery Babylon the Great of Rev 17-18, I dont believe in a pre-trib rapture, the church will be present on earth, I believe the Antichrist/Beast will be a human man of Jewish descent, I believe the 3.5 year tribulation is future, and will start at the revealing of this Jewish man proclaiming to be the Messiah God returned

I believe the (Two Witnesses) in Rev 11 will be literal prophets returned, that will bring literal plagues, upon a literal world, a remake of Moses/Aaron against Pharaoh of Egypt

At the end of this tribulation, literal world armies will move to Jerusalem, as the two witnesses are killed, the Lord returns to Armageddon,the resurrection and Catching up of believers, as the Lords fire and Final judgement takes place, dissolving this earth by fire, as the New Heaven, Earth, and Jerusalem are revealed, eternity begins, judgement complete.

A brief explanation of my belief,

The NKJV more closely follows the Majority text type, it's not Alexandian in charachter.

I follow the Textus Receptus, that is the foundation of the reformation bibles, Tyndale,Coverdale, Geneva, Bishops, King James

I read the KJV, translated by 54 brilliant christian scholars, 409 years time tested, no need for another in the english language.

At the end of the Lords prayer the KJV added to the original textus receptus, before Amen: For thine is the kingdom, and the power, and the glory, for ever.


Matthew 6 (KJV):

13 And lead us not into temptation, but deliver us from evil: For thine is the kingdom, and the power, and the glory, for ever. Amen.

Also, I do not know if I have it incorrect, but: Was the KJV bible translation not commissioned by King James, so that he may legitimately in accordance to this translation, divorce from his wife, which would otherwise not have been found to be scriptural - I read something about that somewhere, do not know if I have it wrong?

You don't think that this future man of Jewish descent might be from the reunited Israel under Judah (British Monarchy heraldry, indicating Lion of Judah, reunited with Ephraim / Manasseh's unicorn symbol):

King David's Monarchy: United Israel under Judah (Lion and Unicorn)

Has the British Monarchy enjoyed a "millennium" of sovereign self-rule, of a reunited Israel under the Lion of Judah's, David's lineage (Monarchy coat or arms, indicating Lion of Judah and Unicorn of Ephraim / Manasseh), since approximately 1000AC? :

"Millenialism": British Monarchy Coat of Arms, Indicating Davidic-ruled reunited Israel of Judah (lion) and Ephraim / Manasseh (unicorn)

(Secret) millenialism:

Has the British Monarchy enjoyed a "millennium" of sovereign self-rule, of a reunited Israel under the Lion of Judah's, David's lineage (Monarchy coat or arms, indicating Lion of Judah and Unicorn of Ephraim / Manasseh), since approximately 1000AC? :

"Millenialism": British Monarchy Coat of Arms, Indicating Davidic-ruled reunited Israel of Judah (lion) and Ephraim / Manasseh (unicorn)

You have contradicted yourself. In 1st Thessalonians you have our Lord meeting the saints IN THE AIR AND CLOUDS. But In Matthew you have our Lord "COMING" to earth. The Greek uses two different words. In 1st Thessalonians the word "COMING" is "Parousia", which means " his PRESENCE (in the clouds)", but in Matthew 24:30 the word is "Erchomai", which means "his ARRIVAL". (on earth).

And the "ELECT" who are "gathered" must be Israel - for they are the only ones scattered to the "FOUR WINDS" (Jer.49:36; Ezek.37:9)

The elect is renewed Israel Body of Christ ( Jews / Judah and Gentiles / Ephraim ), as Christ / Messiah already came to gather all God's children of Ephraim, scattered among the Gentiles ( Ephraim ), as well as their half brothers the Jews ( Judah ):


Judah returned from their Babylonian captivity soon thereafter, Ephraim returned into renewed Israel Body of Christ, from their Assyrian captivity some 2700+ years ago. Israel/Jacob's sons ( Judah / Jews and Ephraim / Gentiles ) were gathered into one by Jesus Christ / Yeshua ha'Maschiach, into the renewed Israel Body of Christ.

John 11 (ESV)

49 But one of them, Caiaphas, who was high priest that year, said to them, "You know nothing at all. 50 Nor do you understand that it is better for you that one man should die for the people, not that the whole nation ( Judah / Jews ) should perish." 51 He did not say this of his own accord, but being high priest that year he prophesied that Jesus would die for the nation, 52 and not for the nation only, but also to gather into one the children of God who are scattered abroad ( Ephraim / Gentiles ).

Ezekiel 37 (ESV)

18 And when your people say to you, 'Will you not tell us what you mean by these?' 19 say to them, Thus says the Lord God: Behold, I am about to take the stick of Joseph (that is in the hand of Ephraim) (scattered among the Gentiles ) and the tribes of Israel associated with him. And I will join with it the stick of Judah ( Jews ), and make them one stick, that they may be one in my hand. 20 When the sticks on which you write are in your hand before their eyes, 21 then say to them, Thus says the Lord God: Behold, I will take the people of Israel from the nations among which they have gone, and will gather them from all around, and bring them to their own land. 22 And I will make them one nation in the land, on the mountains of Israel. And one king shall be king over them all, and they shall be no longer two nations, and no longer divided into two kingdoms. 23 They shall not defile themselves anymore with their idols and their detestable things, or with any of their transgressions. But I will save them from all the backslidings in which they have sinned, and will cleanse them; and they shall be my people, and I will be their God. 24 "My servant David shall be king over them, and they shall all have one shepherd. They shall walk in my rules and be careful to obey my statutes. 25 They shall dwell in the land that I gave to my servant Jacob, where your fathers lived. They and their children and their children's children shall dwell there forever, and David my servant shall be their prince forever.

Ephesians 2 (ESV)

11 Therefore remember that at one time you Gentiles ( Ephraim ) in the flesh, called "the uncircumcision" by what is called the circumcision, which is made in the flesh by hands— 12 remember that you were at that time separated from Christ, alienated from the commonwealth of Israel ( Judah / Jews ) and strangers to the covenants of promise, having no hope and without God in the world. 13 But now in Christ Jesus you who once were far off ( Ephraim scattered among the Gentiles ) have been brought near ( to Judah / Jews ) by the blood of Christ. 14 For he himself is our peace, who has made us both ( reunited Israel: Judah / Jews and Ephraim / Gentiles ) one and has broken down in his flesh the dividing wall of hostility


Romans 11 (ESV)

13 Now I am speaking to you Gentiles ( Ephraim ). Inasmuch then as I am an apostle to the Gentiles, I magnify my ministry 14 in order somehow to make my fellow Jews ( Judah ) jealous, and thus save some of them. 15 For if their rejection means the reconciliation of the world, what will their acceptance mean but life from the dead? 16 If the dough offered as firstfruits is holy, so is the whole lump, and if the root is holy, so are the branches. 17 But if some of the branches were broken off, and you, although a wild olive shoot ( Gentiles / Ephraim ), were grafted in among the others and now share in the nourishing root of the olive tree ( Christ / Messiah ), 18 do not be arrogant toward the branches ( Jews / Judah ). If you are, remember it is not you who support the root, but the root that supports you. 19 Then you will say, "Branches were broken off so that I might be grafted in." 20 That is true. They were broken off because of their unbelief, but you stand fast through faith. So do not become proud, but fear. 21 For if God did not spare the natural branches, neither will he spare you. 22 Note then the kindness and the severity of God: severity toward those who have fallen, but God's kindness to you, provided you continue in his kindness. Otherwise you too will be cut off. 23 And even they, if they do not continue in their unbelief, will be grafted in, for God has the power to graft them in again. 26 And in this way all Israel will be saved, as it is written, "The Deliverer will come from Zion, he will banish ungodliness from Jacob"; 27 "and this will be my covenant with them when I take away their sins."

FOUR objections immediately arise:

1. If Ephraim returned 2,700 years ago, why must Christ send His angels to gather them only when He bursts out of the clouds at the end of the Church age AND AFTER the "Tribulation of those days"?
2. If Judah and Ephraim were gathered by Jesus dying for "the whole nation", who were the devout Jews who came from "every nation under heaven" for Pentecost?
3. In Acts 15:14-16, who will be restored "AFTER" the Church is built if Judah, Ephraim and David's House are already restored?
4. In Ezekiel 37 both Judah and Ephraim are resurrected and restored to one Nation in their Land, but Daniel 12:1-2 says this takes place AFTER the Great Tribulation

There is NO record, whether in the Bible, nor history, of Ephraim returning to their Land. Judah returned from Babylon - but only just over 2%. Esther records the bulk of Judah remaining in far lands.

With all respect, I believe your belief is not sustainable with your parenthesis, but especially unsustainable if you did not add those words which are not found in the texts.

1. If Ephraim returned 2,700 years ago, why must Christ send His angels to gather them only when He bursts out of the clouds at the end of the Church age AND AFTER the "Tribulation of those days"? Ephraim is found in the renewed Israel Body of Christ, Gentile part (not Jewish part of the) Body of Christ of today, and also Ephraim is not yet found physical in the land of Israel.
2. If Judah and Ephraim were gathered by Jesus dying for "the whole nation", who were the devout Jews who came from "every nation under heaven" for Pentecost? Some of Judah / Jews also did not return to Judea, before that time. Most of Ephraim has never yet returned to the land. They are not even allowed by their brother Judah, to make Aliyah(physical return) because of their honouring Jesus Christ / Yeshua ha'Mashiach
3. In Acts 15:14-16, who will be restored "AFTER" the Church is built if Judah, Ephraim and David's House are already restored? It is a 2000 year work of progress to gather Ephraim from the Gentiles, Judah has temporarily been given a spirit of stupor (Romans 11) until this work is complete, but Judah will receive the spirit of grace (Zechariah 12) when the will mourn for the one they have pierced, before He ( Jesus Christ / Yeshua ha'Mashiach ) returns on the clouds after the great tribulation, when this gathering process would have been completed.
4. In Ezekiel 37 both Judah and Ephraim are resurrected and restored to one Nation in their Land, but Daniel 12:1-2 says this takes place AFTER the Great Tribulation Most of Ephraim had by the time of the great tribulation accept Jesus Christ / Yeshua ha'Mashiach, by the time of fulfilment of Daniel 12:1-2 Judah/Jews will exit their spirit of stupor (Romans 11) and receive their spirit of grace (Zechariah 12) to mourn for the one they have pierced. Only then will Judah allow Ephraim to make Aliyah (physical return) into the land of Israel.

There is NO record, whether in the Bible, nor history, of Ephraim returning to their Land. Judah returned from Babylon - but only just over 2%. Esther records the bulk of Judah remaining in far lands. Ephraim is NOT IN THEIR LAND, they are under Jesus Christ / Yeshua ha'Mashiach, awaiting Judah / Jews acceptance of him, before they can return to the land of their brother Judah - for now their brother Judah is blocking them from making Aliyah (physical return) if the believe unto Jesus Christ / Yeshua ha'Mashiach. - Ezekiel 37's fulfilment of Judah and Ephraim reunited in the land of Israel, as brothers under Jesus Christ / Yeshua ha'Mashiach is obviously still in the future, as Judah / Jews still need to accept Jesus Christ / Yeshua ha'Mashiach as King.

Unfortunately, the not so wishful thinking reality is, "They shall hunger no more," after the great tribulation, which means we would have hungered during the great tribulation:


Revelation 7 (KJV)

14 And I said unto him, Sir, thou knowest. And he said to me, These are they which came out of great tribulation, and have washed their robes, and made them white in the blood of the Lamb. 16 They shall hunger no more, neither thirst any more; neither shall the sun light on them, nor any heat.

Thanks for the response, I'm fully aware of the arguments relating to the new bible versions, I read the time honored KJV 409 years and going strong, from the lineage of the Greek textus receptus,

We have covered the subject, feel free to start a thread on the subject, I'm well studied in your area of concern.

While your opinion may be that the KJV is adequate, that opinion does not necessarily hold for others, for a variety of reasons. One very good reason is that the KJV translators botched the job in quite a few cases ("farthing", and "Thou shalt not kill", for examples).

ROLF - you are just plain sneaky. Same old Truth7t7 in a new wrapper.

[some bold and underline and color ^ mine, for emphasis ^ ]

Since we're on the subject of translations... = )

here's a post I made awhile back, on this verse you've put ^ :

[quoting my post from a different convo]

Here's a verse I believe is inaccurate according to how the esv has it (compared with ylt, just for example):

esv - "and all who dwell on earth will worship it, everyone whose name has not been written before [pro - G4253] the foundation of the world in the book of life of the Lamb who was slain"

ylt - "And bow before it shall all who are dwelling upon the land, whose names have not been written in the scroll of the life of the Lamb slain from [apo - G575] the foundation of the world"

https://biblehub.com/text/revelation/13-8.htm - Revelation 13:8

kjv [another comparison] - "And all that dwell upon the earth shall worship him, whose names are not written in the book of life of the Lamb slain from [apo - G575] the foundation of the world."



Huge difference between "slain from [apo - G575]" and "written before [pro - G4253]" ; )

(I believe "slain from [apo - G575]" is accurate, according to the Grk text [shown at link])


For this reason, I tend to avoid the esv. I do think it's the trendy one to go with, these days, but this verse ^ is always flashing in my mind when I hear of it. :/ It is translated incorrectly, here.

[end quoting that post]