Less well-known Rapture verses. The case for the Rapture is compelling.

You disregard the (Two Witnesses) controlling all plagues during the tribulation, why?

You disregard Gods words of protection below, why?

I disagree, the (Two Witnesses) will rule the tribulation through plagues, representing Jesus Christ on Earth

Revelation 11:3-6KJV
3 And I will give power unto my two witnesses, and they shall prophesy a thousand two hundred and threescore days, clothed in sackcloth.
4 These are the two olive trees, and the two candlesticks standing before the God of the earth.
5 And if any man will hurt them, fire proceedeth out of their mouth, and devoureth their enemies: and if any man will hurt them, he must in this manner be killed.
6 These have power to shut heaven, that it rain not in the days of their prophecy: and have power over waters to turn them to blood, and to smite the earth with all plagues, as often as they will.

The wicked world will worship before the feet of the (Sealed) protected Church, dont be deceived

Revelation 3:9-11KJV
9 Behold, I will make them of the synagogue of Satan, which say they are Jews, and are not, but do lie; behold, I will make them to come and worship before thy feet, and to know that I have loved thee.
10 Because thou hast kept the word of my patience, I also will keep thee from the hour of temptation, which shall come upon all the world, to try them that dwell upon the earth.
11 Behold, I come quickly: hold that fast which thou hast, that no man take thy crown.

Gods divine protection of the Church, open your ears!

Revelation 13:9-10KJV
9 If any man have an ear, let him hear.
10 He that leadeth into captivity shall go into captivity: he that killeth with the sword must be killed with the sword. Here is the patience and the faith of the saints.

I think they were foolish.

Those that are deceived by the beast/false prophet, taking the mark and worshipping the image are (Doomed) to the Lake Of Fire, no second chance!

Revelation 14:9-11KJV
9 And the third angel followed them, saying with a loud voice, If any man worship the beast and his image, and receive his mark in his forehead, or in his hand,
10 The same shall drink of the wine of the wrath of God, which is poured out without mixture into the cup of his indignation; and he shall be tormented with fire and brimstone in the presence of the holy angels, and in the presence of the Lamb:
11 And the smoke of their torment ascendeth up for ever and ever: and they have no rest day nor night, who worship the beast and his image, and whosoever receiveth the mark of his name.

The world will be deceived by (False Miracles) into taking the mark and worshipping the image

Revelation 19:20KJV
20 And the beast was taken, and with him the false prophet that wrought miracles before him, with which he deceived them that had received the mark of the beast, and them that worshipped his image. These both were cast alive into a lake of fire burning with brimstone.

You're overthinking my intent. Anything written in the Bible is a given like you're pointing out. I am discussing Jesus predicts 70 A.D. and the physical Temple to be destroyed. I am just pointing out from history with Rome in 70 A.D. and reading how Josephus described it what God's big intent and picture here allowed for the Gospel of Christ now moving into the Church Father era.

There is one future final judgement of all, this will be performed by the Lords fire, (All Men's Works) 1 Cor 3:13

The Pre-Trib Rapture is a (Fairy Tale) of John N. Darby, and promoted by Adulterer C.I. Scofield in his 1909 reference bible

Jesus Christ returns immediately after the future great tribulation, the resurrection of all and catching up takes place, as the heavens and earth are dissolved by the Lords fire in (Final Judgement) the wicked are caught in it (Lake Of Fire)as the righteous pass through it to

The New Heaven, Earth, Jerusalem, Eternity

Yes, I know that. But there are going people who don't take the mark. What do you think is going to happen to them, here on earth? I mean scripture pretty much makes it clear. They will suffer on this earth, right.

Christ is still God. when Christ was speaking and pointing out the subtle events to come about the Tribulation and His Second Coming, if He ever was planning to do a pre Rapture He would have mentioned it. Christ laid out the perfect chain of events to come. He would have definitely mentioned a Rapture.

Arguably, the last Day of the Day of Jesus Christ is......the Rapture event.

The Church has a beginning (Pentecost) and an ending (Rapture).

To be clear, I am not saying that a Christian will suffer any of the plagues or the wrath of God being poured out.

That is completely different than suffering at the hands of the enemy; beast, false prophet, anti-christ, etc.

We Will Disagree

To Be Clear, The Church Will Rule With The (Two Witnesses) During The Tribulation, Man Falsely Elevates The Antichrist, False Prophet, And Wicked World, Who Will Be Tormented By The Witnesses, As The Church On Earth Is Protected, A Complete Remake Of Moses/Aaron Against Pharaoh Of Egypt

Does Gods words below apply to the Church during the tribulation?

1 Corinthians 10:13KJV
13 There hath no temptation taken you but such as is common to man: but God is faithful, who will not suffer you to be tempted above that ye are able; but will with the temptation also make a way to escape, that ye may be able to bear it.

Revelation 3:9-11KJV
9 Behold, I will make them of the synagogue of Satan, which say they are Jews, and are not, but do lie; behold, I will make them to come and worship before thy feet, and to know that I have loved thee.
10 Because thou hast kept the word of my patience, I also will keep thee from the hour of temptation, which shall come upon all the world, to try them that dwell upon the earth.
11 Behold, I come quickly: hold that fast which thou hast, that no man take thy crown.

Gods divine protection of the Church, open your ears!

Revelation 13:9-10KJV
9 If any man have an ear, let him hear.
10 He that leadeth into captivity shall go into captivity: he that killeth with the sword must be killed with the sword. Here is the patience and the faith of the saints.

Gods divine protection during the hour of earths temptation, just like the passover in Egypt, enter the dwelling, shut the door

Isaiah 26:20-21KJV
20 Come, my people, enter thou into thy chambers, and shut thy doors about thee: hide thyself as it were for a little moment, until the indignation be overpast.
21 For, behold, the Lord cometh out of his place to punish the inhabitants of the earth for their iniquity: the earth also shall disclose her blood, and shall no more cover her slain.

Sorry, I'm not sold on these opinions on this thread. How is the tribulation the wrath of God? Isn't the wrath of God the judgement on the lost and the lake of fire. The enemy is the one who is making war with the saints, not God. We should be prepared just like the apostles were prepared to endure suffering for the sake of Christ.

The Church has no end, your claim is false!

The saved Church, will see their earthly works follow them into the (Eternal Kingdom)

Revelation 14:13KJV
13 And I heard a voice from heaven saying unto me, Write, Blessed are the dead which die in the Lord from henceforth: Yea, saith the Spirit, that they may rest from their labours; and their works do follow them.

Revelation 21:22-26KJV
22 And I saw no temple therein: for the Lord God Almighty and the Lamb are the temple of it.
23 And the city had no need of the sun, neither of the moon, to shine in it: for the glory of God did lighten it, and the Lamb is the light thereof.
24 And the nations of them which are saved shall walk in the light of it: and the kings of the earth do bring their glory and honour into it.
25 And the gates of it shall not be shut at all by day: for there shall be no night there.
26 And they shall bring the glory and honour of the nations into it.

The Church Age ends. There are NO MORE added to the specific group of the Church after the Rapture. All other redeemed are of different classifications.

The Church is one and done. Pentecost to Rapture. And its over.

These DO endure eternally no doubt about that. But their NUMBER is fixed.

Yes, we will disagree for now. I will continue to study the verses that you have given me. I am in no way an expert on anything, and I am always up for studying the scriptures, learning, and growing in the Lord.

However, at this point, I am preparing to stand come what may.

lol there are no direct time tables for when people are beheaded. People are being beheaded today for Believing.

Good strategy.
I am pretrib in belief.

However,I believe the AC is revealed b 4 the rapture.
We will be rounded up into huge open air camps.
It is then the rapture happens

I have not taken a stand on the harvest here in Rev.14, because there is just not enough information to make a conclusion.

"Then another angel came out of the temple, crying out in a loud voice to the One seated on the cloud, “Swing Your sickle and reap, because the time has come to harvest; for the crop of the earth is ripe.” So the One seated on the cloud swung His sickle over the earth, and the earth was harvested."

In comparison to the harvest that follows, this harvest appears to be a good harvest, but who is being harvested? Is it a resurrection or are living people being harvested? We don't have that information. It is possible that it could be the resurrection of the OT saints, but it is just a guess. In addition, Rev.12:6, 14 says that the woman who is figuratively representing Israel, flees out into the wilderness where she will be cared for during that 1260 days i.e. the last 3 1/2 years. So the remnant of Israel will be cared for by God out in the wilderness until the Lord returns to the earth.

"Still another angel, with authority over the fire, came from the altar and called out in a loud voice to the angel with the sharp sickle, “Swing your sharp sickle and gather the clusters of grapes from the vine of the earth, because its grapes are ripe.”

So the angel swung his sickle over the earth and gathered the grapes of the earth, and he threw them into the great winepress of God’s wrath. And the winepress was trodden outside the city, and the blood that flowed from it rose as high as the bridles of the horses for a distance of 1,600 stadia."

This second harvest appears to be one of living people and is reminiscent of Armageddon, the harvest being the destruction of the wicked on the earth, as demonstrated by the Lord trampling the winepress and the blood flowing as high as the horses bridle. However, that doesn't happen until the Lord returns to the earth to end the age, where all of the nations are gathered and the Euphrates is dried up to make way for the kings of the east. The bowl judgments don't begin until chapter 16 and Armageddon would follow them.

These two harvests are still in my spiritual cupboard, as the Spirit has not yet revealed the meaning of these to me personally.

What information do you have to make you believe that the first harvest is the gathering of the Jews?

My advice: Scrap everything and reboot your end-time eschatology anew.

Chuck Missler is the go-to source for that. Also try MacArthur.

We're so glad that you cleared that all up for us. Your error is that you, like so many others, do not recognize the gathering of the church vs. the Lord's return to the earth to end the age. They are two separate events.

By putting the gathering of the church as taking place at the second coming, you ignore the fact that you would be putting the living church through the entire wrath of God. And that's the big problem! God's wrath no longer rests upon those who believe in His Son and therefore we are not appointed to suffer it.

In regards to you having the church gathered when the Lord returns to end age, Rev.19:6-8 shows the bride/church already in heaven attending the wedding of the Lamb. Then Verse 14 shows the bride wearing her fine linen, white and clean, which she receives at the wedding, following the Lord out of heaven to end the age. Revelation 17:14 also echo's this teaching stating that as the Lord is returning to the earth to end the age and confront the beast and the kings of the earth, with Him will be His 'called, chosen and faithful followers.

"For the wedding of the Lamb has come, and his bride has made herself ready.
Fine linen, bright and clean, was given her to wear.”

"The armies of heaven were following him, riding on white horses and dressed in fine linen, white and clean."

The armies of heaven following the Lord out of heaven riding on white horses and will be wearing the same fine linen, white and clean that she received at the wedding of the Lamb.

"They (beast and ten kings) will wage war against the Lamb, but the Lamb will triumph over them because he is Lord of lords and King of kings—and with him will be his called, chosen and faithful followers.”



First of all, angels don't gather the dead in Christ when the dead are resurrected and the living who will be changed and caught up. They will rise under their own power, when the voice of the Lord which sounds like a trumpets says, 'Come up here.'

And second, the angels will be gathering the righteous who will have made it alive through the entire wrath of God. In Matt.24:31 angels will be gathering living people from all over the earth. That is not a reference to the gathering of the church, but to the great tribulation saints and Israel. It is these two groups who will repopulate the earth during the millennial kingdom.

In addition, Jesus said that He would keep us out of that hour of testing, not through or in it, but He will keep us out of it. Other translations have 'kept from the hour of trial' which also works.

"Because you have kept the word of My patient endurance, I also will keep you out of the hour of the trial being about to come upon the whole inhabited world, to try those dwelling upon the earth."