Less well-known Rapture verses. The case for the Rapture is compelling.

Gary I enjoy the dialogue, on a very difficult subject, my jest is in brotherly love, even if we disagree

Gary I believe Rev 11 is a compact view of the entire 3.5 year tribulation, right up to the 7th Trump and end of this world

The (Two Witnesses) are present at the beginning of the 42 month, 1260 day, or 3.5 year tribulation, same time frame the antichrist is given power, the actions brought by the two witnesses in plagues, is the great tribulation, brought upon the wicked world.

The entire tribulation is a remake of Moses/Aaron against Pharaoh of Egypt

I believe the plagues seen in the Revelation are brought by the words of the two witnesses, even though the Angel's are seen in deliverance, messenger team work you know

I believe in the (Same Hour) the witnesses are literally raised to heaven, the final hours of earths existence takes place, the 2and woe earthquake, the third woe comes quickly, in the second coming of Jesus Christ at the 7th Trump, Final Judgement by fire, judgement complete, the end, Lake of fire for the wicked, New Heaven, Earth, Jerusalem, for the righteous, that's my observation

Revelation 11:2-19KJV
2 But the court which is without the temple leave out, and measure it not; for it is given unto the Gentiles: and the holy city shall they tread under foot forty and two months.
3 And I will give power unto my two witnesses, and they shall prophesy a thousand two hundred and threescore days, clothed in sackcloth.
4 These are the two olive trees, and the two candlesticks standing before the God of the earth.
5 And if any man will hurt them, fire proceedeth out of their mouth, and devoureth their enemies: and if any man will hurt them, he must in this manner be killed.
6 These have power to shut heaven, that it rain not in the days of their prophecy: and have power over waters to turn them to blood, and to smite the earth with all plagues, as often as they will.
7 And when they shall have finished their testimony, the beast that ascendeth out of the bottomless pit shall make war against them, and shall overcome them, and kill them.
8 And their dead bodies shall lie in the street of the great city, which spiritually is called Sodom and Egypt, where also our Lord was crucified.
9 And they of the people and kindreds and tongues and nations shall see their dead bodies three days and an half, and shall not suffer their dead bodies to be put in graves.
10 And they that dwell upon the earth shall rejoice over them, and make merry, and shall send gifts one to another; because these two prophets tormented them that dwelt on the earth.
11 And after three days and an half the spirit of life from God entered into them, and they stood upon their feet; and great fear fell upon them which saw them.
12 And they heard a great voice from heaven saying unto them, Come up hither. And they ascended up to heaven in a cloud; and their enemies beheld them.
13 And the same hour was there a great earthquake, and the tenth part of the city fell, and in the earthquake were slain of men seven thousand: and the remnant were affrighted, and gave glory to the God of heaven.
14 The second woe is past; and, behold, the third woe cometh quickly.
15 And the seventh angel sounded; and there were great voices in heaven, saying, The kingdoms of this world are become the kingdoms of our Lord, and of his Christ; and he shall reign for ever and ever.
16 And the four and twenty elders, which sat before God on their seats, fell upon their faces, and worshipped God,
17 Saying, We give thee thanks, O Lord God Almighty, which art, and wast, and art to come; because thou hast taken to thee thy great power, and hast reigned.
18 And the nations were angry, and thy wrath is come, and the time of the dead, that they should be judged, and that thou shouldest give reward unto thy servants the prophets, and to the saints, and them that fear thy name, small and great; and shouldest destroy them which destroy the earth.
19 And the temple of God was opened in heaven, and there was seen in his temple the ark of his testament: and there were lightnings, and voices, and thunderings, and an earthquake, and great hail.

Here's another version (of that verse) which reflects the correct "plural" of this word [in the Greek] which you are pointing out:


"strengthening the souls of the disciples, exhorting them to continue in the faith and that "through many tribulations [plural - G2347]" it behooves us to enter into the kingdom of God." [-blb] - Acts 14:22 Greek Text Analysis (biblehub.com) [see the PLURAL at link]


... which is the exact thing Paul acknowledged that the Thessalonians were ALREADY ongoingly EXPERIENCING back in their day, and the very reason which necessitated his second letter to them [because others were "purporting that 'the day of the Lord IS PRESENT [PERFECT indicative]'" (it wasn't)] (yet is not speaking of what Rev4-19 is covering, which Rev1:1 [/1:19c / 4:1] says are "things which must come to pass IN QUICKNESS [NOUN]" and which time-period ENDS with Jesus' RETURN to the earth [i.e. not the 70ad events and so forth, as the Preterists suppose; and not transpiring over the course of some near-2000 yrs, as the Historicists suppose]):

Here's that SAME word you were pointing out in Acts 14:22, used here (also PLURAL):

2 Thessalonians 1:4 N-DFP [G2347 - plural]
GRK: καὶ ταῖς θλίψεσιν αἷς ἀνέχεσθε
NAS: your persecutions and afflictions which
KJV: and tribulations that
INT: and the tribulations which you are bearing

2 Thessalonians 1:4 Greek Text Analysis (biblehub.com)


SAME word (also in the PLURAL) as in your verse:

[kjv] "Confirming the souls of the disciples, and exhorting them to continue in the faith, and that we must through [/by means of] much [PLURAL ('many'-plural)] tribulation [the Grk word is PLURAL, here - G2347 - 'tribulationS'] enter into the kingdom of God." - Acts 14:22


... again, just as Paul acknowledged the Thessalonians were THEN (ALREADY) ongoingly EXPERIENCING (not speaking of the "FUTURE" aspects of Rev, "things which must come to pass IN QUICKNESS [NOUN]" [i.e. the 7-yr trib immediately preceding and LEADING UP TO His "RETURN" to the earth in Rev19]).


No "pre-tribbers" are denying that WE experience "tribulations and persecutions"... "the Church which is His body" HAS BEEN experiencing such ALL THROUGHOUT its ENTIRE existence on the earth, since the first century [Eph1:20-23 WHEN (as to its existence)]... so please stop saying that "pre-tribbers" are suggesting such a thing.




Come up with a better, more convincing (and accurate) argument. This one is repeated so often, but repeatedly fails to hold up under close biblical scrutiny (and it is a STRAWMAN argument, because it does NOT reflect the "pre-trib" position, AT ALL [the position you are endeavoring to argue against])

There will always be martyrs until the close of probation. Even when Israel was being directly led out of Egypt by God’s hand, the Amalekites killed a few innocents - God was giving these sinners enough rope to hang themselves, which happened in the time of Samuel.

Look, I’m southern and a bit slow, but it seems the only problem with your analysis is that there is no “7 years of tribulation” mentioned on Scripture - it’s a Jesuit distortion of the 70 Weeks where the last week is sent down to the end of time to unfold just after the saints are “caught up”, and later Darby who was seduced by this nonsense added the “secret” part.

And Paul’s “falling away” doesn’t refer to any pre-trib “rapture of the saints” - the word is “apostasia” and refers to the great apostasy which came to pass in early Christianity when the Papacy took over and dragged every stripe and type of paganism into the church - just as Paul and John predicted would happen not long after their day.

So, Christians will be here for the “time of trouble” and some will suffer martyrdom, but when probation closes and God’s wrath is poured out in the 7 Last Plagues, the promises of the prophecy of Psalm 91 shall come to pass.

I see people will often place the time of Christ's return to fit their theology rather than believing the bible.

Signs of Our Times
4 Technological Signs relating to Christ’s Coming have been fulfilled.

https://barrysetterfield.org/Signs/Signs.html

"First: Joel 2:30-31 states, "And I will show wonders in the heavens, and in the earth blood and fire and pillars of smoke. And the sun shall be turned to darkness and the moon to blood before the great and terrible Day of the Lord comes.” The great & terrible Day of the Lord is also known as the “Great Tribulation” in the New Testament. This is a period of 7 years just prior Christ’s Millennial reign.

Pillars of smoke? The Hebrew word translated "pillars" is "timmorah." It is used 21 times in the Old Testament. Only twice is the word translated as "pillars." The other 19 times it is translated as "palm tree." So there is to be "blood and fire and palm-trees of smoke." That is a very accurate picturing of the hydrogen bomb. The atomic bomb (on the right, below) is referred to as a mushroom cloud, not a pillar. But look at the hydrogen bomb, on the left below."

They will be honored to be a final [Testimony] for Christ through their suffering.

Gary I agree the Church has been in tribulation since day one, I dont believe 70AD Roman destruction of Jerusalem plays any part in a starting point

Yes there have been martyrs past, presently, and there will be in the future

I believe scripture clearly gives a distinction between general tribulation, and the future "Great Tribulation"

I know historicism teachings of the reformers taught and believe the Papacy was an ongoing form of the actual Antichrist, I disagree

No question Romes Popes brought untold evil upon the Church throughout history, but the Antichrist and Great tribulation are future events unfulfilled, and will start at a future event when this Jewish human man of sin is revealed to the world in Jerusalem, as Messiah to the Jews, and Jesus returned to earth, to an apostate church

https://barrysetterfield.org/Signs/Signs.html
http://www.watchmanbiblestudy.com/BibleStudies/HIStoryOurFuture/Ezekiels430Days.html

Hag 2:10-15.......God marks the exact day of the start reconstruction of the temple.

Indeed there is precisely 2520 (360 day) years from Hag 2 to the day of the recapture of Jerusalem on June 7th 1967. The desolations of Jerusalem have ended.

The Time is at hand. At the very door.

The 70 weeks of Daniel represents 490 literal days not years, the 70 weeks will start at a future announcement in Jerusalem, to rebuild the wall and street, the future construction project to begin for their awaited upon Meshiach, AKA the Antichrist

Daniel 9:24-27, Seventy Literal Weeks Explained?

Daniel's 70 weeks are literal 7 day periods, or 490 literal days.

If Daniel meant 490 years he would have written

(Four hundred and ninety years), simple

Daniel had no restrictions in "Writing Exact Numerology" as seen below.

Daniel 6:1KJV
It pleased Darius to set over the kingdom an hundred and twenty princes, which should be over the whole kingdom;

Daniel 8:14KJV
And he said unto me, Unto two thousand and three hundred days; then shall the sanctuary be cleansed.

Daniel 12:11KJV
And from the time that the daily sacrifice shall be taken away, and the abomination that maketh desolate set up, there shall be a thousand two hundred and ninety days.

Below in Daniel 10:2-3 we see just another example of Daniel's literal weeks, as Daniel mourned and fasted for 3 literal weeks or 21 days.

Daniel 10:2-3KJV
2 In those days I Daniel was mourning three full weeks.
3 I ate no pleasant bread, neither came flesh nor wine in my mouth, neither did I anoint myself at all, till three whole weeks were fulfilled.

Below in Daniel 9:24-27 we see 70 literal future weeks or 490 days.

When the call/commandment goes out in Jerusalem to build unto the Jewish Meshiach/Messiah that they wait for (They Denied Jesus Christ) this will start the 7 week period.

62 literal weeks will be in building, and Meshiach/Messiah will be cut off by the Antichrist who stops the building.

The 70th literal week will see the antichrist revealed in making a covenant, and in the middle of this literal week he proclaims to be Meshiach/Messiah God to the Jews, and Jesus returned to the apostate church, to start a Millennium on earth.

The 3.5 year tribulation begins.

Daniel 9:24-27KJV
24 Seventy weeks are determined upon thy people and upon thy holy city, to finish the transgression, and to make an end of sins, and to make reconciliation for iniquity, and to bring in everlasting righteousness, and to seal up the vision and prophecy, and to anoint the most Holy.
25 Know therefore and understand, that from the going forth of the commandment to restore and to build Jerusalem unto the Messiah the Prince shall be seven weeks, and threescore and two weeks: the street shall be built again, and the wall, even in troublous times.
26 And after threescore and two weeks shall Messiah be cut off, but not for himself: and the people of the prince that shall come shall destroy the city and the sanctuary; and the end thereof shall be with a flood, and unto the end of the war desolations are determined.
27 And he shall confirm the covenant with many for one week: and in the midst of the week he shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to cease, and for the overspreading of abominations he shall make it desolate, even until the consummation, and that determined shall be poured upon the desolate.

The record setting massive Lisbon Earthquake of 1755, the inexplicable Dark Day and inexplicable Blood Moon of May 19,1789, and the inexplicable trajectories and numbers of the 1833 Leonid meteor shower were all “Trumpet” signs of the end of the 2,300 Days prophecy and the commencement of the “Day of Atonement” fulfillment of Christ’s Heavenly Sanctuary ministry. This brought about the revolutionary preaching that Jesus was soon to take off His high priestly robes and put on His white vestments dipped on blood and come back for His people, while the rest of Christianity was wrapped up in their pipe dreams about a “post-millennium of peace return of Christ”. Can you guess which Christian denomination adopted officially the teaching of Christ’s soon return decades and decades before the rest of Christianity jumped on the bandwagon? (Hint: it’s in their very name 😉)

There is no good argument about the teaching that Jesus comes to earth and resurrects all the dead saints, and gives resurrection bodies to all living saints and then takes them all back to heaven.

But here's the problem. Most evangelicals have been taught that Jesus comes back before the Tribulation and raptures all saints and takes them back to heaven during the 7 year Tribulation. However, there are no verses that make this clear.

In fact, Acts 3:21 says plainly (from the Greek) that Jesus remains in heaven until God "restores everything". That certainly doesn't happen before the Tribulation. That occurs when Jesus sets up His Millennial Kingdom after the Tribulation. The words "heaven must receive Him" means "receive and retain, contain", which is to remain. The Second Coming isn't in 2 parts, as the pre-Tribulation types must claim.

To futher support this, Rev 20:5 specifically describes the resurrection of Tribulation saints as the "first resurrrection". How can there be 2 "firsts"? Can't be.

1 Cor 15:23 - But each in turn: Christ, the firstfruits; then, when he comes, those who belong to him.

Christ is the first to receive a resurrection body. Then, WHEN HE COMES, everyone else (all believers, dead and alive). This verse shows that there aren't 2 separate resurrections, one before and one after the Tribulation.

The error that you and others continue to make, is not discerning between the trials and tribulation that Jesus said believers would have because of our faith in Him, which comes at the hands of men and the powers of darkness vs. God's coming wrath, which will be unprecedented wrath coming directly from Him in the form of the seals, trumpets and bowl judgements.

As an example, Paul and the rest of the apostles and first century church were suffering the trials and tribulations as a result of faith in Christ. They were not suffering God's wrath.

That wrath that is coming upon the earth in the form of the seals, trumpets and bowl judgments will be for the purpose of God pouring His wrath out, which scripture proclaims that believers in the church are not appointed to suffer.

"They tell how you turned to God from idols to serve the living and true God, and to wait for his Son from heaven, whom he raised from the dead—Jesus, who rescues us from the coming wrath."

"But since we belong to the day, let us be sober, putting on faith and love as a breastplate, and the hope of salvation as a helmet. For God did not appoint us to suffer wrath but to receive salvation through our Lord Jesus Christ."

"Since we have now been justified by his blood, how much more shall we be saved from God’s wrath through him!"

The reason that believers cannot go through God's wrath, is because Jesus already experienced it on behalf of every believer, satisfying it completely. Therefore, God's wrath no longer rests upon the believer in Christ. Furthermore, when we believed, we were credited with the righteousness of Christ and reconciled to God.

After Paul gave his detailed account of the resurrection of the dead and the living being changed and caught up with them in I Thessalonians 4:13-18, he said for believers to comfort each other with those words. Those who are teaching that the church is going to be on the earth to go through God's wrath, are not comforting believers with those words.

That time period of God's wrath is not appointed for the church, but for a prideful arrogant Christ rejecting world.

Isn’t that what Paul precisely says in 1 Thessalonians 4:16-18?

'jest' you say...

Ephesians 5:

1 Be ye therefore followers of God, as dear children; 2 And walk in love, as Christ also hath loved us, and hath given himself for us an offering and a sacrifice to God for a sweetsmelling savour. 3 But fornication, and all uncleanness, or covetousness, let it not be once named among you, as becometh saints; 4 Neither filthiness, nor foolish talking, nor jesting, which are not convenient: but rather giving of thanks.

(I couldn't resist.)

~

This is what I believe:

'pre-trib' timeframe: ~2000 years ago
'mid-trib' timeframe: ~1000 years ago

A 'pre-trib' rapture is impossible.
A 'mid-trib' rapture is impossible.

The three accounts of the Olivet Discourse [clearly] show us that the 'Great Tribulation' (our words for what Jesus defined in Matthew 24:21) started circa ~70 A.D.

We are in it now.

It will end in the future.

The worst is yet to come.

It is not 7 years.

It is not 3.5 years.

It is ~2000 years.

(remember: God's Timing)

The prophecy of Revelation and the Olivet Discourse "unfolds" over a 2000-year span of time - not a 7-year or 3.5-year span of time.

(remember: God's Timing)

Some of it is past history.

Some of it is yet future.

There is no 7-year [anything] in End Times Prophecy. The only 3.5-year End Times prophetic 'event' is the Two Witnesses - which scripture [clearly] shows us is "sandwiched-in-between" the Great Tribulation and the Second Coming of Christ.

The Two Witnesses bring about the Trumpet Events by/during their testimony and prophecy.

Revelation 13:1-7 is talking about the Dark Ages.

The "souls under the altar" in Revelation 6:9 are the martyrs from that 'era'. The 'fellowservants' in Revelation 6:11 'that should be killed as they were" are modern-era martyrs beheaded for not worshipping the beast.

All of these martyrs are 'tribulation saints'.

Here is a partial order-of- events / time-line:


All of this may be found in the [Bible] 'Study' section of my website.

The 7 Last Plagues are God’s wrath poured out against the wicked. The righteous will be shielded from it, just as Israel was shielded from the 7 last plagues in Egypt, and will witness them falling all around on every side, not from way up high above the Earth. What’s the “error” with that?

Your misapprehensions are quite typical. You really need to hit the books take a few months or years and really analyze these Scriptures that you are quoting.

The 21 pages on this thread are as good a place to start is any. Have at it and carry on.

The rapture IS indeed boilerplate doctrine. Fully supported and fully featured as much as any other doctrine. In fact more so than some others.

Yes, there are verses, but people reject them or don't understand them.

The main principal as to why the church must be gathered prior to the first seal being opened, which initiates God's wrath, is because Jesus already took upon himself the wrath that every believer deserves, satisfying it completely. When we believed, we were credited with the righteousness of Christ and reconciled to God. Therefore, God's wrath no longer rests upon the believer. Those who teach that the church is gathered mid or post tribulation, cannot truly believe that Jesus satisfied God's wrath on our behalf.

"Surely He took on our infirmities and carried our sorrows; yet we considered Him stricken by God, struck down and afflicted. But He was pierced for our transgressions, He was crushed for our iniquities; the punishment that brought us peace was upon Him, and by His stripes we are healed."

Anyone who believes and teaches that the church will go through God's coming wrath, cannot truly believe in the scripture above.

Your error is the same as other who read 'First resurrection" and interpret that as "only resurrection," which it is not.

First of all, the resurrection which takes place in Revelation 20:4-6, is only a resurrection of the dead. At this resurrection there are no living who are transformed and caught up. And second, those who are resurrected here is in reference to the saints who come out of the great tribulation, who were introduced in Revelation 7:9-17. These are those who will have become believers after the church has been gathered from the earth and during the time of God's wrath.

I've posted this many times, but I will post it again: The word 'ekklesia' translated as 'church' is used 19 times throughout chapters 1 thru 3 and that without the word 'saints' used interchangeably. Then after the end of chapter 3 the word 'church' disappears from use. It's gone! The reason for this is that, Rev.4:1 is a prophetic allusion, or masked if you will, where the church is called up and which is why the word 'church' no longer appears in the narrative. The next time the church is seen is under the title of 'the bride' who is at the wedding of the Lamb in Rev.19:6-8, receiving her fine linen, white and clean. Then in Rev.19:14, we see the bride following the Lord out of heaven riding on white horses and were her fine linen, white and clean. And the next time the word 'church' is actually used again is in Rev.22:16, which is outside of the narrative of God's wrath.

The appearing of the Lord to gather His church, is a separate event from the Lord's return to the earth to end the age.

When the church is gathered, the Lord will appear in the atmosphere and with a voice that sounds like a trumpet He will say "come up here!" At that time John 14:1-3 and I Thess.4:13-17 will be fulfilled, where the Lord will take the entire church back to the Father's house to those places that He went to prepare for us.

At the second coming, the Lord will descend from heaven to the earth to end the age and establish His millennial kingdom, which is where He has the beast and the false prophet thrown alive into the lake of fire, all the wicked are killed with the double-edged sword and Satan is thrown into the Abyss for a thousand years. At that time is also when the great tribulation saints will be resurrected and will rule with Christ during that thousand years, along with the church and the 144,000.

I Thessalonians 4:13-17 = a resurrection of the dead and the living are transformed and caught up with them.

Revelation 20:4-6 = a resurrection, but no mention of the living in Christ being changed and caught up.

The first resurrection, or better understood as the resurrection that takes place prior to the resurrection of the unrighteous dead at the end of the thousand years, is made up of stages or phases:


The First Resurrection includes:

* Christ the first fruits

* The church (those at His coming)

* The Male Child/144,000 (Caught up to God's throne)

* The two witnesses

* The great tribulation saints

All of the above fall under the banner of the first resurrection and take place prior to the beginning of the thousand years.

The 144k are firstfruits
Declared correctly as firstfruits.

Yes they are in heaven at rev 14. You are correct.

The 144 k PRECEDE the harvest by Jesus on. Cloud.
They are firstfruit Jews.