Mary?

Musicmaster · Feb 18, 2021

Some of my roman catholic friends were talking the other day about their Mary, and how she hears all their prayers and mediates between them and God.

This was confusing to me, so I didn't say anything to them at the time.

If their Mary can hear all their prayers, would that not ascribe to her attributes of deity, such as omnipresence (in the presence of all those people praying to her), which not even Satan has?

If their Mary can hear all their prayers, would that not ascribe to her attributes of deity, such as omniscience (knowing the very thoughts of the one praying, especially if it is only in their minds and hearts rather than out loud and verbal), which not even Satan knows?

If their Mary can exercise power in the lives of those praying to her, would that not ascribe to her attributes of deity, such as omnipotence (possessing the power of deity to exert her will in the affairs of this earth in the lives of those praying to her), of which Satan has limited influence, but that their Mary can overcome as being more powerful than Satan himself?

Where do scripture point out anywhere in all the 31,000+ verses of the Bible, revealing such attributes of deity to one woman, and based upon what?

[1 Timothy 2:5] For [there is] one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus;

It would seem that the beliefs of my RCC friends is diametrically opposed to the very word of God itself, although they have told me that their traditions and "magisterium" teachings are above the Bible, and thus interpreting difficult passages into something they don't seem to be saying, even though they seem contradictory in spite of what sound like slight-of-hand interpretations to make the text of the Bible say what it doesn't.

Folks, I don't want to offend my RCC friends, but how do we reconcile what appears to be absolute polar opposites in meaning? They also ascribe to their other "saints" some of the same attributes. I have always understood "one" to be one, and only one. They don't believe that Jesus and Mary are "one" and the same, but rather two different entities. How, then, can their popish declarations from the past and present offer any measure of apologetic that can rectify this seemingly glaring set of inconsistencies for a doctrine that didn't even exist as official doctrine for them until the 19th century?

Can anyone help me with this?

MM

Dino246 · Feb 18, 2021

Musicmaster said:

Some of my roman catholic friends were talking the other day about their Mary, and how she hears all their prayers and mediates between them and God.

This was confusing to me, so I didn't say anything to them at the time.

If their Mary can hear all their prayers, would that not ascribe to her attributes of deity, such as omnipresence (in the presence of all those people praying to her), which not even Satan has?

If their Mary can hear all their prayers, would that not ascribe to her attributes of deity, such as omniscience (knowing the very thoughts of the one praying, especially if it is only in their minds and hearts rather than out loud and verbal), which not even Satan knows?

If their Mary can exercise power in the lives of those praying to her, would that not ascribe to her attributes of deity, such as omnipotence (possessing the power of deity to exert her will in the affairs of this earth in the lives of those praying to her), of which Satan has limited influence, but that their Mary can overcome as being more powerful than Satan himself?

Where do scripture point out anywhere in all the 31,000+ verses of the Bible, revealing such attributes of deity to one woman, and based upon what?

[1 Timothy 2:5] For [there is] one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus;

It would seem that the beliefs of my RCC friends is diametrically opposed to the very word of God itself, although they have told me that their traditions and "magisterium" teachings are above the Bible, and thus interpreting difficult passages into something they don't seem to be saying, even though they seem contradictory in spite of what sound like slight-of-hand interpretations to make the text of the Bible say what it doesn't.

Folks, I don't want to offend my RCC friends, but how do we reconcile what appears to be absolute polar opposites in meaning? They also ascribe to their other "saints" some of the same attributes. I have always understood "one" to be one, and only one. They don't believe that Jesus and Mary are "one" and the same, but rather two different entities. How, then, can their popish declarations from the past and present offer any measure of apologetic that can rectify this seemingly glaring set of inconsistencies for a doctrine that didn't even exist as official doctrine for them until the 19th century?

Can anyone help me with this?

MM

In short, you are going to reach a point where you can either choose not to discuss matters of faith with your RC friends, you can evangelize them, or you can go your separate ways.

Roman Catholic dogma is not compatible with biblical Christianity. They might talk about Jesus, but they will point you to Mary and the RC "church" as the ultimate authority and source of life. Christians will talk about the church, and will point to Jesus as the ultimate authority and source of life.

I would encourage you to do some homework on this matter, as you have started to do. There are many videos on YouTube on the subject (I recommend those by James White and Mike Winger).

Musicmaster · Feb 18, 2021

Dino246 said:

Yes, I've watched quite a few of Winger's videos.

Having read through a number of their catechisms, I arrived at the same thoughts as you expressed in your response above. That's why I called that woman "...their Mary..." because that woman doesn't seem at all to be the same one as what we read in scripture. Their Mary resembles the "mother-son" of so many other pagan religions I have studied over the decades. Almost every pagan religion in the world has a mother-son story and images dating back to Ba'al at Babel with Samurais and Tammuz.

The problem is helping them to see the fallacies in the historic declarations of Pius IX concerning their Mary, and do it in an effective manner that is convincing rather than sounding like I'm simply throwing stones to break their glass houses. I like to keep the peace, and everything on a discussion level of talk rather than contention.

MM

Rosemaryx · Feb 18, 2021

Just keep preaching the Scriptures to your friends in the peaceful manner that you are , only God can do the growing...
...xox...

Funkus · Feb 18, 2021

i listen to a lot of gregorian chants. Mary features in many. Holy spirit seems there.

eternally-gratefull · Feb 18, 2021

Musicmaster said:

Some of my roman catholic friends were talking the other day about their Mary, and how she hears all their prayers and mediates between them and God.

This was confusing to me, so I didn't say anything to them at the time.

If their Mary can hear all their prayers, would that not ascribe to her attributes of deity, such as omnipresence (in the presence of all those people praying to her), which not even Satan has?

If their Mary can hear all their prayers, would that not ascribe to her attributes of deity, such as omniscience (knowing the very thoughts of the one praying, especially if it is only in their minds and hearts rather than out loud and verbal), which not even Satan knows?

If their Mary can exercise power in the lives of those praying to her, would that not ascribe to her attributes of deity, such as omnipotence (possessing the power of deity to exert her will in the affairs of this earth in the lives of those praying to her), of which Satan has limited influence, but that their Mary can overcome as being more powerful than Satan himself?

Where do scripture point out anywhere in all the 31,000+ verses of the Bible, revealing such attributes of deity to one woman, and based upon what?

[1 Timothy 2:5] For [there is] one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus;

It would seem that the beliefs of my RCC friends is diametrically opposed to the very word of God itself, although they have told me that their traditions and "magisterium" teachings are above the Bible, and thus interpreting difficult passages into something they don't seem to be saying, even though they seem contradictory in spite of what sound like slight-of-hand interpretations to make the text of the Bible say what it doesn't.

Folks, I don't want to offend my RCC friends, but how do we reconcile what appears to be absolute polar opposites in meaning? They also ascribe to their other "saints" some of the same attributes. I have always understood "one" to be one, and only one. They don't believe that Jesus and Mary are "one" and the same, but rather two different entities. How, then, can their popish declarations from the past and present offer any measure of apologetic that can rectify this seemingly glaring set of inconsistencies for a doctrine that didn't even exist as official doctrine for them until the 19th century?

Can anyone help me with this?

MM

It sounds you have a firm grasp on who Mary is, I agree with everything you said about the Mary of scripture and “their Mary”

sadly, they are taught their priest and father have infallible interpretation and we have our private interpretation. so a lot of prayer, and talk in love may help, but most of the time I try to discuss this with them, it brings me more pain, than it does them

Magenta · Feb 18, 2021

There is no getting around it: the Truth offends those who are averse/adverse to it.

Good luck with your friends

Though it is most likely
they will not easily relinquish their non-Biblical beliefs.

Starting with Mary being born sinless in order that God in the flesh could like wise be sinless.
Because He needed Mary's help? Yeah, no. Essentially she is an exception to them, of all
being born in Adam with her so-called immaculate conception. Then moving on to her being
called the second Eve, the queen of heaven, the mother of all, and perpetually virginal (even
though she had other children after Jesus was born), did not die, bodily assumed to heaven,
mediates between God and man... none of it Biblical. They elevate her while Jesus did not.

Mariology is deeply disturbing to those who know better.

Musicmaster · Feb 18, 2021

Dr. John Barnett had much to say about the teachings concerning the roman catholic Mary, and especially the eucharist, about how those are damnable heresies. He prefaced his talks about the subject with the RCC teaching 95% biblical truth, and the rest being a poison. That concerns me. They have a catechism that says those who deny their teachings about their Mary are lost and will not make it to their heaven.

When I read scripture, It speaks of how Christ was sacrificed once, not repeatedly, hundreds of thousands of times a day, every day.

[Hebrews 9:28] So Christ was once offered to bear the sins of many; and unto them that look for him shall he appear the second time without sin unto salvation.

[1 Peer 3:18] For Christ also hath once suffered for sins, the just for the unjust, that he might bring us to God, being put to death in the flesh, but quickened by the Spirit:

It's interesting that Luther, when he read the scriptures for himself, that's when he nailed the 95 thesis to the door for all to see. That's when the change took hold of his heart. The transformation that arises from reading the scriptures is profound, and relying on Holy Spirit to teach us of all things as is promised in 1 John 2:27.

So, according to roman catholic teaching, I'm not going to make it into their heaven since I reject their Mary as being co-redemptrix and co-mediator.

There is an old cathedral somewhere in Europe, and they suspended from the rafters the religious hat of one of their bishops who had died in years past, and when the rope suspending that hat in the rafters finally rotted enough for the hat to drop to the floor, they said that was when that bishop made it out of their purgatory...which was some 200 years later.

My, my. All of this is so tragic. It has helped me to better understand the plight that accompanies these false teachings.

Thank you all for your comments and encouragement.

MM

Subhumanoidal · Feb 18, 2021

Musicmaster said:

Some of my roman catholic friends were talking the other day about their Mary, and how she hears all their prayers and mediates between them and God.

This was confusing to me, so I didn't say anything to them at the time.

If their Mary can hear all their prayers, would that not ascribe to her attributes of deity, such as omnipresence (in the presence of all those people praying to her), which not even Satan has?

If their Mary can hear all their prayers, would that not ascribe to her attributes of deity, such as omniscience (knowing the very thoughts of the one praying, especially if it is only in their minds and hearts rather than out loud and verbal), which not even Satan knows?

If their Mary can exercise power in the lives of those praying to her, would that not ascribe to her attributes of deity, such as omnipotence (possessing the power of deity to exert her will in the affairs of this earth in the lives of those praying to her), of which Satan has limited influence, but that their Mary can overcome as being more powerful than Satan himself?

Where do scripture point out anywhere in all the 31,000+ verses of the Bible, revealing such attributes of deity to one woman, and based upon what?

[1 Timothy 2:5] For [there is] one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus;

It would seem that the beliefs of my RCC friends is diametrically opposed to the very word of God itself, although they have told me that their traditions and "magisterium" teachings are above the Bible, and thus interpreting difficult passages into something they don't seem to be saying, even though they seem contradictory in spite of what sound like slight-of-hand interpretations to make the text of the Bible say what it doesn't.

Folks, I don't want to offend my RCC friends, but how do we reconcile what appears to be absolute polar opposites in meaning? They also ascribe to their other "saints" some of the same attributes. I have always understood "one" to be one, and only one. They don't believe that Jesus and Mary are "one" and the same, but rather two different entities. How, then, can their popish declarations from the past and present offer any measure of apologetic that can rectify this seemingly glaring set of inconsistencies for a doctrine that didn't even exist as official doctrine for them until the 19th century?

Can anyone help me with this?

MM

There are a seemingly infinite number of threads on the subject of Catholicism. Doing a quick search should show you, literally, hours of reading on the subject.
In fact there seems to be a perpetual line of Catholics coming to this site to argue.

A common tactic is to strive to get Protestants to accept them as the same and when that won't work they change gears and begin bashing instead. Quite confounding.

Nehemiah6 · Feb 18, 2021

Musicmaster said:

You will never convince any religious Roman Catholic to give up devotion to Mary. So you might as well move on. Mary has been elevated to become Queen of Heaven by their church, and that's how it is with the RCC. For the Orthodox, she is Theotokos, or Mother of God, so they are also more or less in the same position.

Blackpowderduelist · Feb 18, 2021

It's idolatry.

Musicmaster · Feb 18, 2021

Subhumanoidal said:

One thing I've learned is that when conversations get to the point that others degenerate down into ad hominem, that's when I put whomever the perp(s) is/are into an ignore mode. Nobody gets anywhere in a match for wits.

When Jesus was being addressed by Satan, He responded only with, "It is written..." Never did He try to match wits with His own creation, even though He could have smashed Satan down into the dust with words.

So, given that Torah and the prophets were good enough for the Lord of Glory Himself, any fingers pointed at authorities other than what's written in the cannon is nothing but man-made religion and traditions.

When my friends pointed at Maccabees as the authority for their Mary and her function, I said to them that scripture says otherwise about the real Jesus, in that He died once, and the real Mary needed a Savior like all the rest of mankind. After going to their priest for answers to that, they were told by him to point out Maccabees. When I revealed that the real Jesus never considered that book to be scripture, they went running back to him again, and he had no answers to that one other than to point at their magisterium teachings and traditions as being superior to scriptures.

MM

p_rehbein · Feb 19, 2021

the Catholic Religion and the Christian Faith have little in common. Yes, same God, and they believe much of what we do concerning God and Jesus and the Holy Spirit, BUT they had to write their own version of the Holy Bible to justify ALL that differs from their "religion" and the Christian Faith!

A long time ago, there was a Priest on one of the Morning News Shows that said something like:

If you give us your child at birth, by the time they are 12, they will be a Catholic forever.........

That, my friends, sounds like brain washing or some such.......

I know a couple of Catholics who truly love God and truly believe they are following Him, and are truly saved.

IDK.......that is not my call, but I would NEVER turn to the Catholic religion in search of salvation personally.

Benadam · Feb 19, 2021

Musicmaster said:

Catholic teaching affirms that. Sacred Scriptures describe Mary as Holy and the mother of God. That alone makes her unique among women. Also the Holy Spirit revealed that venerating Mary would be a tradition handed down the generations.
Sacred Scriptures describe Mary as the virgin through whom the world receives salvation. No need for anything but the Gospels and common sense. Grace and peace.

Adstar · Feb 19, 2021

Musicmaster said:

Some of my roman catholic friends were talking the other day about their Mary, and how she hears all their prayers and mediates between them and God.

This was confusing to me, so I didn't say anything to them at the time.

If their Mary can hear all their prayers, would that not ascribe to her attributes of deity, such as omnipresence (in the presence of all those people praying to her), which not even Satan has?

If their Mary can hear all their prayers, would that not ascribe to her attributes of deity, such as omniscience (knowing the very thoughts of the one praying, especially if it is only in their minds and hearts rather than out loud and verbal), which not even Satan knows?

If their Mary can exercise power in the lives of those praying to her, would that not ascribe to her attributes of deity, such as omnipotence (possessing the power of deity to exert her will in the affairs of this earth in the lives of those praying to her), of which Satan has limited influence, but that their Mary can overcome as being more powerful than Satan himself?

Where do scripture point out anywhere in all the 31,000+ verses of the Bible, revealing such attributes of deity to one woman, and based upon what?

[1 Timothy 2:5] For [there is] one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus;

It would seem that the beliefs of my RCC friends is diametrically opposed to the very word of God itself, although they have told me that their traditions and "magisterium" teachings are above the Bible, and thus interpreting difficult passages into something they don't seem to be saying, even though they seem contradictory in spite of what sound like slight-of-hand interpretations to make the text of the Bible say what it doesn't.

Folks, I don't want to offend my RCC friends, but how do we reconcile what appears to be absolute polar opposites in meaning? They also ascribe to their other "saints" some of the same attributes. I have always understood "one" to be one, and only one. They don't believe that Jesus and Mary are "one" and the same, but rather two different entities. How, then, can their popish declarations from the past and present offer any measure of apologetic that can rectify this seemingly glaring set of inconsistencies for a doctrine that didn't even exist as official doctrine for them until the 19th century?

Can anyone help me with this?

MM

I left the catholic church and one of the reasons was the blasphemous teachings which include the one you detail in this message..

And offense is often unavoidable when one is standing up for the Gospel.. It offends many..

We do not try to reconcile with false doctrine.. We separate ourselves from evil doctrines and deny brotherhood with false religions..

Benadam · Feb 19, 2021

There will be a test that involves the love of truth. What it will reveal in each of us is the love we have for our neighbor.....or not.
It will reveal who the truth belongs to.....or not.
Truth is loved wherever it's found by those it belongs to.
Truth will be found where it isnt expected and will reveal man to himself
It will reveal who Jesus has given Himself to.....or not.

2 Thessalonians 2:10

10 And with all deceivableness of unrighteousness in them that perish; because they received not the love of the truth, that they might be saved.

Musicmaster · Feb 19, 2021

p_rehbein said:

You brought up some interesting thoughts. I have wondered how Christians and roman catholics can believe in the same God when they teach theirs must be resacrificed every day, when the real Jesus laid down His life only once. They believe their Jesus can be called down by their priests, as if theirs is not sovereign, where the real Jesus is utterly Sovereign and absolutely Deity, and thus not under the control of any earthly priest nor influenced by any woman in Heaven.

I know a roman catholic who does not perform the rituals, nor does he believe in them, but remains among them in order to minister the true Christ Jesus to the men in his men's Bible study. From what he has told me, his success is quite remarkable. Some of the men he brought to the real Jesus have left that religion.

When it comes to judging others at that level, I agree with leaving that to the Lord, but my concern for them is real when it has to do with works-based salvation.

What do you others think?

MM

Musicmaster · Feb 19, 2021

Benadam said:

What's interesting is that their teaching about their Mary didn't become an established, officially declared belief in their religion until the 19th century. Their history is littered with core teachings added over the centuries that were not official doctrine before they were uttered by a fallible man they call their pope.

So, given the numerous things in their teachings, compared to the canonized Bible that does not include the apocryphal books, they have nothing of any real authority behind those teachings apart from what they have subjectively declared authoritative. I would agree that they lay claim to their popes having the authority within their religion to have established their added doctrines over the years, but never does the Lord anywhere attribute to them that authority in His inspired, written word, and Holy Spirit has not at any time confirmed to me such thoughts, as pointed out in 1 John 2:27.

So, either their religion houses many false teachings, or Holy Spirit is withholding confirmation of those teachings as being from Him. Mormons talk about some burning in their bosom as confirmation, JW's point to...well, whatever it is they believe confirms their doctrines to them, but all I experience in my prayer time about these things is uneasiness. Cults the world over demand conformance without questions, and that's what my RCC friends have asked of me. Paul of Tarsus taught:

[1 Thess. 5:21] Prove all things; hold fast that which is good.

Well, my heart's in the right place because all I want in my belief system is absolute truth in all things, and Holy Spirit has not yet confirmed any of their dogmas and teachings that are either absent in the Bible or absolutely opposed to the Bible.

MM

Benadam · Feb 19, 2021

Musicmaster said:

Typical misunderstanding among many. The Catholic Mass is centered on the breaking of bread as it was in the begining. It's not a resacrifice. It's being present at the one sacrifice. The lamb slain from the foundation of the world. Eternity entered time when God became man. That's why you believe He can forgive your sins today. The lamb of God is at the throne of God the Father now and forever. Jesus is with us because He is an eternal being. He didn't come to be Our Savior. He came as Our Savior. The Catholic Mass is a participation in the worship that surrounds God in heaven in the eternal moment that has no duration, beginning or end.

JaumeJ · Feb 19, 2021

Mary, the mother of the only begotten Son of God, but never the mother of God. It does not take much meditation to understand this. If this mother dogma were true, God would need to obey and be beholding to her, and she does not possess such a standing.

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