Was the crucifixion that Jesus endured the worst possible suffering a human could experience?

So your answer will be yes, he was forsaken by God.

Would that be the correct understanding?

If he felt forsaken by God the Father, this could be seen as a complete immersion into the human condition (to be disconnected, however momentarily, from God the Father, as Jesus took on the sins of the world and sin itself is a condition of being disconnected from God).

No, it would not be the correct understanding.

If he felt forsaken by God the Father, this could be seen as a complete immersion into the human condition (to be disconnected, however momentarily, from God the Father, as Jesus took on the sins of the world and sin itself is a condition of being disconnected from God).

The other interpretation is that Jesus was speaking only in reference to Psalm 22, to the benefit of his witnesses so that they may understand what was happening.

Alright then, we can agree to disagree then. I take Jesus's words literally there.

When the full weight of sin was on Jesus, he deliberately let us know that he was forsaken by God, so that we will understand, thru the divine exchange, that we will never be forsaken by God.

But once God finishing judging sin on Jesus, Jesus was still alive and could utter the word Father once again, to let us know that, in this case, the sacrifice was greater than the sin.

If the Father would not forsake us sinners, He wouldn't forsake his own Son, second person of the Trinity.

You never heard of the concept of "divine exchange", made popular by Derek Prince?

The reason why we as Christians will never be forsaken by God, is because Christ took that on the cross.

No, actually the Father will not forsake his children (any of them) because he is a true and Holy Father. He didn't forsake Christ.


Neither the Father nor the Father's Spirit forsook Jesus at any time. It is clear that Jesus was only quoting Psalms not speaking those words as if they applied directly to his situation. At no time did the Father forsake the Son. I believe he most likely spoke the entire chapter and that it was a sign for us to go to Psalms and read this prophecy. The words about being forsaken come from what David feared, not Christ.



Christ never addressed his Father by saying "God" he always used "Father" when speaking to or praying to Him proving that he was not speaking to his Father when he said those things on the cross. He was indeed teaching.




Have you ever quoted scripture? Does it mean you are saying those words and that they apply to your life? I've quoted that same portion in Psalms but didn't mean that God forsook me. Christ probably quoted the entire chapter but even if he stopped with that one verse it means that he was fulfilling the prophecy of Messiah and dying for us as we see in that chapter. It was David that felt God had forsaken him and it wasn't true. God didn't forsake David and he didn't forsake his own son.





Psa 22:1 To the chief Musician upon Aijeleth Shahar, A Psalm of David. My God, my God, why hast thou forsaken me? why art thou so far from helping me, and from the words of my roaring?


He wasn't talking to his Father but quoting scripture to show prophecy had been fulfilled. Not everything in the Psalms 22 is Messianic prophetically speaking.

Psa 22:2 O my God, I cry in the daytime, but thou hearest not; and in the night season, and am not silent.


Christ didn't cry in the day time and his Father certainly heard him when he did speak to Him. David said God didn't hear yet Paul wrote that when Christ prayed in the garden, he was heard!




Heb 13:5 Let your conversation be without covetousness; and be content with such things as ye have: for he hath said, I will never leave thee, nor forsake thee.


If God will never leave or forsake us, why think he forsook his own son who is God as well?


Some claim Christ was made sin (a figure of speech that means he was the sin offering NOT that he was sin) and that somehow meant the Father couldn't stand him or had to look away or something like that but the truth is God can be in the presence of any sinner whether literally or spiritually. He spent time with satan himself in heaven with no issues. The Father wouldn't have any reason at all to abandon or forsake his own Son! God fellowshipped with sinners like David and Moses and countless others. God won't fellowship with those that don't love him. Only those would he forsake and only because they forsake him first which is similar to when God forsook Israel. He only did so because they had committed religious adultery and fornication with false gods.



Let's ask ourselves who really benefits from the theory that God the Father can forsake God the Son ie: one person of the Trinity forsaking another person of the Trinity? Satan benefits! Anti-Trinitarians benefit. It shows a weak Trinity who can turn their back against themselves yet in Job we see God having multiple conversations with the most evil, sinful being that has ever existed. So would God really turn his face from his own beloved Son and not turn his face from satan? Seriously, the doctrines people believe in astonish me at times!



Mat 27:44 The thieves also, which were crucified with him, cast the same in his teeth.
Mat 27:45 Now from the sixth hour there was darkness over all the land unto the ninth hour.
Mat 27:46 And about the ninth hour Jesus cried with a loud voice, saying, Eli, Eli, lama sabachthani? that is to say, My God, my God, why hast thou forsaken me?


About the 9th hour Christ supposedly exclaims that God has forsaken him yet in Luke at the same time we see something quite different:

Luk 23:44 And it was about the sixth hour, and there was a darkness over all the earth until the ninth hour.
Luk 23:45 And the sun was darkened, and the veil of the temple was rent in the midst.
Luk 23:46 And when Jesus had cried with a loud voice, he said, Father, into thy hands I commend my spirit: and having said thus, he gave up the ghost.

So was he forsaken because God could not stand the sin he bore or was he confident he was about to be received into the hands of his Father who did not have his back turned to him and who was not forsaking him at all?


Act 2:23 Him, being delivered by the determinate counsel and foreknowledge of God, ye have taken, and by wicked hands have crucified and slain:
Act 2:24 Whom God hath raised up, having loosed the pains of death: because it was not possible that he should be holden of it.
Act 2:25 For David speaketh concerning him, I foresaw the Lord always before my face, for he is on my right hand, that I should not be moved:
Act 2:26 Therefore did my heart rejoice, and my tongue was glad; moreover also my flesh shall rest in hope:
Act 2:27 Because thou wilt not leave my soul in hell, neither wilt thou suffer thine Holy One to see corruption.

The Lord never left or abandoned Christ according to this.

Clarke:

For David speaketh concerning him - The quotation here is made from Psa_16:8-11 (note), which contains a most remarkable prophecy concerning Christ, every word of which applies to him, and to him exclusively.

Gill:

Acts 2:25
For David speaketh concerning him,.... The Messiah, the Lord Jesus Christ, in Psa_16:8. The whole psalm belongs to the Messiah, and everything concerning the person in it agrees with him; such as his trust in God, Psa_16:1 as he was man and Mediator; his very great regard to the saints, and delight in them, Psa_16:2 his disregard to others who were hastening after another God, or another Saviour, whose sacrifices, as an high priest, he would not offer up, nor make intercession for them, Psa_16:4 his exceeding great satisfaction in having the God of Israel for his portion, and in having his lot cast among his peculiar people, who were a delightful inheritance to him, Psa_16:5 his thankfulness for advice and direction in the time of his sorrows and sufferings


Joh 16:28 I came forth from the Father, and am come into the world: again, I leave the world, and go to the Father.
Joh 16:29 His disciples said unto him, Lo, now speakest thou plainly, and speakest no proverb.
Joh 16:30 Now are we sure that thou knowest all things, and needest not that any man should ask thee: by this we believe that thou camest forth from God.
Joh 16:31 Jesus answered them, Do ye now believe?
Joh 16:32 Behold, the hour cometh, yea, is now come, that ye shall be scattered, every man to his own, and shall leave me alone: and yet I am not alone, because the Father is with me.

The disciples would abandon Christ but the Father never would! This is prophecy and Jesus is not a false prophet so his words are true. The disciples would leave him but the Father would not.


Ask yourself who benefits from the idea that one person of the Trinity forsook another, that the Trinity isn't fully united and one person of the Trinity showed the same type of wrath God shows to his morally evil enemies.

You have never heard of Derek Prince and the doctrine of Divine exchange?

Alright then, we can agree to disagree then. I take Jesus's words literally there.

When the full weight of sin was on Jesus, he deliberately let us know that he was forsaken by God, so that we will understand, thru the divine exchange, that we will never be forsaken by God.

But once God finishing judging sin on Jesus, Jesus was still alive and could utter the word Father once again, to let us know that, in this case, the sacrifice was greater than the sin.

I find that it is not scriptural. I've presented arguments that show otherwise. The Father never forsakes any of his children. Any father that would is a terrible father.

How does one become a child of God? Is it not by accepting Christ died for our sins and rose again on the 3rd day for our justification? (1 Cor 15:1-4)

If you think about it, isn't the first half of my above point a divine exchange?

A good father does not forsake any of his children. The Father is a good father.

How does one become a child of God?

That's irrelevant. A Father does not forsake his children. The Trinity cannot forsake the Trinity. It's weird to even suggest that this is possible.

How does one become a child of God?

Alright then, we can agree to disagree then. I take Jesus's words literally there.

When the full weight of sin was on Jesus, he deliberately let us know that he was forsaken by God, so that we will understand, thru the divine exchange, that we will never be forsaken by God.

But once God finishing judging sin on Jesus, Jesus was still alive and could utter the word Father once again, to let us know that, in this case, the sacrifice was greater than the sin.

If Jesus had been truly forsaken, He would not have resurrected to continue His eternal life.

Those who will be forsaken will not attain to life ever after. They shall suffer the second death.

If one cannot understand the purpose of Jesus' death, they do not understand Christianity.