50 Reasons For a Pretribulational Rapture By Dr. John F. Walvoord

Quite possibly another reference to a similar or the very same heresy being spread by the false teachers in 2Thess 2.......that the rapture has already passed. An often overlooked passage supportive of the rapture. In both of these cases the false preachers spreading this errant doctrine
could not possibly be speaking of the RETURN of Jesus Christ in his Second Coming. No....but both times it is speaking to the rapture no doubt about it.

2 Tim 2:17-18
And their message will spread like cancer. Hymenaeus and Philetus are of this sort,
who have strayed concerning the truth, saying that the resurrection is already past; and they overthrow the faith of some.

[QUOTE="VCO, post: 4537535, member: 178202"You have to think with your heart first, and not with what lies between your ears.[/QUOTE]
Maybe you don't understand what's even between your ears.

Do you think with the muscle that pumps your blood? Doctors call that muscle a "heart". Is that what you think with?

Is is a defense of your position? That it "came naturally to you". As if that means something special?

My theology, which is totally biblical, gives me great joy. I know I am secure by the eternal life that Jesus gave me when I put my faith in Him to save me.

btw, for discussion purposes, let's say you are wrong. And the Tribulation begins and you find that NO ONE disappeared.

How much joy will that bring you?

Here's the deal. If I'm wrong and there is a pre-trib rapture, my smile on the way up will be AT LEAST as big as yours.

HOWEVER, if you are wrong, will you be smiling?

Don't play word games with me. Jesus has TWO "comings" to earth. The first one was about 2,000 years ago, when He was born to Mary in Bethlehem.

His Second Coming or Advent will be when He returns to end the Tribulation and win the battle of Armageddon. At that time, He will bring with Him all the dead saints who have been in heaven, and with them, will meet the gathered (raptured) believers who are living on earth when He returns. It is in the clouds that the dead ones receive their resurrection bodies, and the living ones are changed. Both will have bodies just like Jesus' resurrection body.

At that point, Jesus will continue down to earth and set up His Millennial kingdom and "rule the nations with a rod of iron". Rev 12:5 and 19:15.

Excuse me, but the trip from heaven to the clouds of earth is certainly a coming. He COMES to the atmosphere for the resurrection and changing of believers.

Since Jesus gave parables which HAD TO BE EXPLAINED BY HIM to even His disciples, do you really think you have enough moxy to understand them all by yourself?


So what? No parable teaches a pre-trib rapture. But nice try.

Let's focus on John 14:2. When Jesus said that, He was STILL ALIVE on earth, speaking to His disciples. It should be obvious to the astute that every one of those disciples would physically die within that century. So Jesus was speaking of having a place for them after they died.

There is nothing in that verse about Jesus physically taking them to heaven.

After the Bride accepts the Proposal, then the BRIDEGROOM GOES to the FATHER'S House to prepare a place for HIS BRIDE. HE WILL NOT RETURN UNTIL THE FATHER SAYS THE NEW DWELLING PLACE IS FINISHED, according to JEWISH CUSTOMS.

Mark 13:32-33 (NCV)
32 “No one knows when that day or time will be, not the angels in heaven, not even the Son. Only the Father knows.
33 Be careful! Always be ready, because you don’t know when that time will be.

Matthew 25:13 (NCV)
13 “So always be ready, because you don’t know the day or the hour the Son of Man will come. (To steal HIS BRIDE away.)

Click to expand...

None of these verses specifies that Jesus takes anyone back up to heaven. None.

Since Paul left out ANY mention of the Tribulation, how do you determine when this event will take place?

In fact, what Paul wrote here and in 1 Cor 15:52 contains the same elements as in the obviously Second Coming verses.

Because NONE of it mentions the Trib. Your timeline is rather warped.

You are only seeing what you want to see.

I don't believe what the Bible DOESN'T SAY.

I DO believe what the Bible says.

Why don't you?

FreeGrace2 said:
Can you point me to any verse that clearly shows that Jesus takes the resurrected and changed believers back up to heaven?

Notice that I'm not asking for specific words. But I am asking for a clear message.

Thanks.
If John 14 is so clear, could you quote the specific verses that clearly portray a pre-trib rapture please?

Are you aware that Jesus was speaking to people living about 2,000 years ago? And He was saying that WHEN they die, there will be a place for them.

It is pure speculation that Jesus "has spent all this time since ascending building homes". They were ready by the time the FIRST death after the resurrection occurred.

Specific verse, please. I'm very familiar with John 14, but don't know what verses you refer to.

Why do you and some people think that Jesus is such a slow home builder?

We do agree on that point.

This is more speculation. What verse says we won't be here?

Except you don't have any verses that say He takes anyone back up to heaven.

Why would that not be mentioned in any of the rapture verses?

Where does the Bible say it is in heaven? More speculation.

I guess you keep forgetting that the VAST MAJORITY of "those who belong to Him" will ALREADY be in heaven, since they've been dying since Adam. That's a whole lot of believers.

When Jesus comes and "gathers" the living believers, the numbers will be only a fraction of the ones already dead and coming with Him.

You are speculation and assuming that every believer must be in heaven before Jesus comes to rapture them. Yet, Paul makes clear that there will be living believers on earth. "those who are alive and remain" means ON EARTH.

You think so, huh. Well, chalk that idea up to an error. You have no idea about anything. But you do guess a lot, obviously.

What I would like to see is any verse that clearly indicates that Jesus comes to earth's atmosphere, with all the dead saints from heaven, and gathers up (raptures) all the living believers on earth, resurrects the dead, and changes the living, and then TAKES THEM ALL BACK TO HEAVEN.

I'm not asking for specific words, but I am asking for specific clarity that Jesus takes all these resurrected/raptured believers back to heaven.

So far, total failure from anyone to quote any verse that teaches that.

We Will Strongly Disagree

Yes You Openly Deny The Fire In Destruction At The Lords Appearing, Revealing, Below

You Desire For A Return Of Jesus Christ To Start A Millennium On Earth

Scripture Teaches It Will Be Fire Time At The Lords Appearance, Revealing.

Jesus Christ Returns In Fire And Final Judgement, Dissolving This Existing Earth By Fire, Immediately After The Tribulation.

This Existing Heaven And Earth Will Be (Replaced) By The New Heaven, Earth, Jerusalem, A New Creation, At The Return Of Jesus Christ!

(Behold, I Make All Things New)

2 Peter 3:10-13KJV
10 But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night; in the which the heavens shall pass away with a great noise, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat, the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up.
11 Seeing then that all these things shall be dissolved, what manner of persons ought ye to be in all holy conversation and godliness,
12 Looking for and hasting unto the coming of the day of God, wherein the heavens being on fire shall be dissolved, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat?
13 Nevertheless we, according to his promise, look for new heavens and a new earth, wherein dwelleth righteousness.

Revelation 21:1-5KJV
1 And I saw a new heaven and a new earth: for the first heaven and the first earth were passed away; and there was no more sea.
2 And I John saw the holy city, new Jerusalem, coming down from God out of heaven, prepared as a bride adorned for her husband.
3 And I heard a great voice out of heaven saying, Behold, the tabernacle of God is with men, and he will dwell with them, and they shall be his people, and God himself shall be with them, and be their God.
4 And God shall wipe away all tears from their eyes; and there shall be no more death, neither sorrow, nor crying, neither shall there be any more pain: for the former things are passed away.
5 And he that sat upon the throne said, Behold, I make all things new. And he said unto me, Write: for these words are true and faithful.

Matthew 24:29-30KJV
29 Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:
30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.

1 Corinthians 3:13KJV
13 Every man's work shall be made manifest: for the day shall declare it, because it shall be revealed by fire; and the fire shall try every man's work of what sort it is.

Luke 17:29-30KJV
29 But the same day that Lot went out of Sodom it rained fire and brimstone from heaven, and destroyed them all.
30 Even thus shall it be in the day when the Son of man is revealed.

2 Thessalonians 1:7-9KJV
7 And to you who are troubled rest with us, when the Lord Jesus shall be revealed from heaven with his mighty angels,
8 In flaming fire taking vengeance on them that know not God, and that obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ:
9 Who shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord, and from the glory of his power;

Malachi 3:2KJV
2 But who may abide the day of his coming? and who shall stand when he appeareth? for he is like a refiner's fire, and like fullers' soap:

Psalm 46:6KJV
6 The heathen raged, the kingdoms were moved: he uttered his voice, the earth melted.

Psalm 50:3KJV
3 Our God shall come, and shall not keep silence: a fire shall devour before him, and it shall be very tempestuous round about him.

Psalm 97:5KJV
5 The hills melted like wax at the presence of the Lord, at the presence of the Lord of the whole earth.

Isaiah 66:15KJV
15 For, behold, the Lord will come with fire, and with his chariots like a whirlwind, to render his anger with fury, and his rebuke with flames of fire.

Zechariah 14:12KJV
12 And this shall be the plague wherewith the Lord will smite all the people that have fought against Jerusalem; Their flesh shall consume away while they stand upon their feet, and their eyes shall consume away in their holes, and their tongue shall consume away in their mouth.

Nahum 1:5-6KJV
5 The mountains quake at him, and the hills melt, and the earth is burned at his presence, yea, the world, and all that dwell therein.
6 Who can stand before his indignation? and who can abide in the fierceness of his anger? his fury is poured out like fire, and the rocks are thrown down by him.

Revelation 20:9KJV
9 And they went up on the breadth of the earth, and compassed the camp of the saints about, and the beloved city: and fire came down from God out of heaven, and devoured them.

Perhaps you can help me find the things claimed by those teaching a Literal 1,000 year Millennial Kingdom On This Earth in Revelation 20:1-6 below?

1.) No Physical Earthly Kingdom?
2.) No Physical Earthly Throne?
3.) No Physical Mortal Humans?

The Above Claims (Don't Exist), A 1,000 Year Millennial Kingdom On This Earth, Is A Man Made Fairy Tale (Fact)

Revelation 20:1-6 Is 100% In The Lords (Spiritual) Angel, Heaven, Devil, Satan, The Souls, The Dead, God, Christ?

100% Spiritual Realm, No "Literal" Time (Fact)

2 Peter 3:8KJV
8 But, beloved, be not ignorant of this one thing, that one day is with the Lord as a thousand years, and a thousand years as one day.

Revelation 20:1-6KJV
1 And I saw an angel come down from heaven, having the key of the bottomless pit and a great chain in his hand.
2 And he laid hold on the dragon, that old serpent, which is the Devil, and Satan, and bound him a thousand years,
3 And cast him into the bottomless pit, and shut him up, and set a seal upon him, that he should deceive the nations no more, till the thousand years should be fulfilled: and after that he must be loosed a little season.
4 And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years.
5 But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection.
6 Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years.

Maybe you don't understand what's even between your ears.

Do you think with the muscle that pumps your blood? Doctors call that muscle a "heart". Is that what you think with?


Is is a defense of your position? That it "came naturally to you". As if that means something special?


My theology, which is totally biblical, gives me great joy. I know I am secure by the eternal life that Jesus gave me when I put my faith in Him to save me.

btw, for discussion purposes, let's say you are wrong. And the Tribulation begins and you find that NO ONE di


Excuse me, but the trip from heaven to the clouds of earth is certainly a coming. He COMES to the atmosphere for the resurrection and changing of believers.


Since Jesus gave parables which HAD TO BE EXPLAINED BY HIM to even His disciples, do you really think you have enough moxy to understand them all by yourself?


So what? No parable teaches a pre-trib rapture. But nice try.

Let's focus on John 14:2. When Jesus said that, He was STILL ALIVE on earth, speaking to His disciples. It should be obvious to the astute that every one of those disciples would physically die within that century. So Jesus was speaking of having a place for them after they died.

There is nothing in that verse about Jesus physically taking them to heaven.


None of these verses specifies that Jesus takes anyone back up to heaven. None.


Since Paul left out ANY mention of the Tribulation, how do you determine when this event will take place?

In fact, what Paul wrote here and in 1 Cor 15:52 contains the same elements as in the obviously Second Coming verses.


Because NONE of it mentions the Trib. Your timeline is rather warped.

You are only seeing what you want to see.

I don't believe what the Bible DOESN'T SAY.

I DO believe what the Bible says.Why don't you?[/QUOTE]""""
"""None of these verses specifies that Jesus takes anyone back up to heaven. None."""
The last supper dialoge, the 10 virgin parable and rev 19 all testify 100% against you
100%

Not to mention rev 14 and the innumerable number before the throne in heaven
...AHEM...during the gt

Are you Serious

You claimed a person died and came back to life, and they saw name tags on seats at the marriage supper table

Somebody's not telling the truth

Revelation 2:17KJV
17 He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches; To him that overcometh will I give to eat of the hidden manna, and will give him a white stone, and in the stone a new name written, which no man knoweth saving he that receiveth it.

50 pages later, we have run around the same Bush 10 times, I'm out toooo

Maybe you don't understand what's even between your ears.

Do you think with the muscle that pumps your blood? Doctors call that muscle a "heart". Is that what you think with?


Is is a defense of your position? That it "came naturally to you". As if that means something special?


My theology, which is totally biblical, gives me great joy. I know I am secure by the eternal life that Jesus gave me when I put my faith in Him to save me.

btw, for discussion purposes, let's say you are wrong. And the Tribulation begins and you find that NO ONE disappeared.

How much joy will that bring you?

Here's the deal. If I'm wrong and there is a pre-trib rapture, my smile on the way up will be AT LEAST as big as yours.

HOWEVER, if you are wrong, will you be smiling?


Don't play word games with me. Jesus has TWO "comings" to earth. The first one was about 2,000 years ago, when He was born to Mary in Bethlehem.

His Second Coming or Advent will be when He returns to end the Tribulation and win the battle of Armageddon. At that time, He will bring with Him all the dead saints who have been in heaven, and with them, will meet the gathered (raptured) believers who are living on earth when He returns. It is in the clouds that the dead ones receive their resurrection bodies, and the living ones are changed. Both will have bodies just like Jesus' resurrection body.

At that point, Jesus will continue down to earth and set up His Millennial kingdom and "rule the nations with a rod of iron". Rev 12:5 and 19:15.


Excuse me, but the trip from heaven to the clouds of earth is certainly a coming. He COMES to the atmosphere for the resurrection and changing of believers.


Since Jesus gave parables which HAD TO BE EXPLAINED BY HIM to even His disciples, do you really think you have enough moxy to understand them all by yourself?


So what? No parable teaches a pre-trib rapture. But nice try.

Let's focus on John 14:2. When Jesus said that, He was STILL ALIVE on earth, speaking to His disciples. It should be obvious to the astute that every one of those disciples would physically die within that century. So Jesus was speaking of having a place for them after they died.

There is nothing in that verse about Jesus physically taking them to heaven.


None of these verses specifies that Jesus takes anyone back up to heaven. None.


Since Paul left out ANY mention of the Tribulation, how do you determine when this event will take place?

In fact, what Paul wrote here and in 1 Cor 15:52 contains the same elements as in the obviously Second Coming verses.


Because NONE of it mentions the Trib. Your timeline is rather warped.

You are only seeing what you want to see.

I don't believe what the Bible DOESN'T SAY.

I DO believe what the Bible says.

Why don't you?[/QUOTE]


No, I am extremely comfortable, with the TRUTH I believe with my whole heart. I do not even care if you want to continue to believe a different Theology. Have it your way. And I will believe what the Holy Spirit has put my HEART to BELIEVE.

The reason I refuse to Argue, or Chasen, or even Get Into a Heated Debate; is these Verses:

Titus 3:9-10 (NCV)
9 But stay away from those who have foolish arguments and talk about useless family histories and argue and quarrel about the law. Those things are worth nothing and will not help anyone.
10 After a first and second warning, avoid someone who causes arguments.

2 Timothy 2:22-24 (NCV)
22 But run away from the evil young people like to do. Try hard to live right and to have faith, love, and peace, together with those who trust in the Lord from pure hearts.
23 Stay away from foolish and stupid arguments, because you know they grow into quarrels.
24 And a servant of the Lord must not quarrel but must be kind to everyone, a good teacher, and patient.


So it is time to say Good Bye. You can believe what you want; and I will always believe what the Holy Spirit put in my heart to BELIEVE.

Do remember the LORD SAID THESE VERSES:

Mark 13:32-33 (NCV)
32 “No one knows when that day or time will be, not the angels in heaven, not even the Son. Only the Father knows.
33 Be careful! Always be ready, because you don’t know when that time will be.

Matthew 25:13 (NCV)
13 “So always be ready, because you don’t know the day or the hour the Son of Man will come. (To steal HIS BRIDE away.)

Double post

Yes we will be in heaven ... not on earth

I quite agree, I am post tribulation so the multitude which appeared in Revelations which no man could number is the church in heaven.

Saved from God's wrath but brought out of great tribulation.

When did the church get to heaven?
Where , in postrib doctrine is there any room for goi g to heaven???
Are you aware of the postrib rapturist doctrine of the uturn in the clouds???
IOW, In that doctrine they openly defend the church never sees heaven.

Consequently they shy from rev 19, and 14, and MUST erroneously place the wedding supper on earth.

Jesus placed it in heaven as does the parable of the 10 virgins.

An interesting investigation would be to find Any postrib rapturist teaching incorporating the main purpose of the rapture.

I never have. Never in 40 years of study have i come across a thread on the 10 virgins or rev 14 , or for that fact, any verses of their study on the rapture verses.

Only the ones that they find safe.

Pretrib rapture doctrine is full bible
Postrib = omission

me: " please post one postrib rapture verse"

You: "im outta here"

You and who?

No, I haven't. I clearly reject your fantasy timetable.

I desire to know the truth. And the truth of Rev 20 is that at Jesus' Second Advent, He sets up His Millennial reign on earth.

Those verses speak of His coming judgment and "ruling the nations with a rod of iron. But never mind, it is clear to me that you aren't interested in what the Bible teaches.

Only by rejecting, denying and ignoring Rev 20.

Not at the return. After the Millennium. That is what Rev 20 teaches, and very clearly.

Yes, He will.

I know what the Bible says. And I understand God's timetable, which you obviously don't.

I've already done that. Why do you persist with your fantasies? Rev 20 blows your fantasies out of the water.

"""What I would like to see is any verse that clearly indicates that Jesus comes to earth's atmosphere, with all the dead saints from heaven, and gathers up (raptures) all the living believers on earth, resurrects the dead, and changes the living, and then TAKES THEM ALL BACK TO HEAVEN."""

Un no...i can post them, but you will DEFINATELY IGNORR THEM.
That is you guys method.
The 10 virgins is CLEAR AS A BELL.
THE DIALOGUE AT THE LAST SUPPER is another.

But you guys are thoughly debunked in the gathering of rev 14

You can sit back and not address it all you want, but thise dynamics route your doctrine BIG TIME.

BUT ...you will not address it.

None of you have.

It seems you live in a fantasy world.