50 Reasons For a Pretribulational Rapture By Dr. John F. Walvoord

"The Church which is His body" has been experiencing "persecutionS and tribulationS" (2Th1:4) throughout its entire existence on the earth from the first century (Eph1:20-23 WHEN [as to its existence]); we are not awaiting a future, specific, LIMITED time-period [the seven yrs] IN ORDER to experience it.



--"The Church which is His body" has theirs [ours] in the "two thousand years" (i.e. "TWO DAYS");

--"Israel" will have theirs in the "7 years" (Hos5:14-6:3 - "after two days"... "IN THEIR AFFLICTION, they WILL seek Me early"<--PTL!!)

Hebrews 7:22 -

"By so much also, Jesus has become [perfect indicative] the guarantee [/a surety] of a better covenant."

You would think that the present day miraculous reconstitution of national Israel would be enough to silence the amillennialists once and for all. But nope the denials continue unabated.

I'll take wooden literalism any day over irreverent denals and incorrigible incoherent flagrantly imaginative and utterly useless mystical allegories.

No gap demands hardcore preterism. So you are an preterist-amillennialist?

FreeGrace2 said:
where Jesus resurrects all the accompanying dead saints, and gathers up all the living believers and changes them. And THEN He continues on down to earth.
This is really funny. As in lol.

At the Second Advent, Jesus Christ comes back to EARTH, believe it or not. What is funny is that you accuse me of guesswork when there are NO verses that tell us that raptured people are taken to heaven. Zero. So who's guessing here?

You should STILL believe that. How else would the dead saints get their new resurrection bodies if they didn't come with Him?

Can you explain that?

You really do need to heed the advice of myself and another poster. All your fancy caps, bolds, italics, underlines, brackets, parentheses, and hyphens make reading your statements nearly impossible to follow. So I'll pass on this paragraph.

Just type, for pete's sake.

I remain amazed at how some just cannot (or will not) grasp 2 Thess 2:1-3. It is clear enough. It says what I believe. That's why I say it too.

FreeGrace2 said:
I "see" nothing in 1 Thess 4 about a "prewrath coming".
Well, thanks for the admission about how you piece together verses to get to your view.

What a convoluted thought process.

Again, IF IF IF Paul believed and taught a pretrib rapture, why didn't he say so in either 1 Cor 15:52, or 1 Thess 4? It would have been easy enough.

Oh, so now Lamentations is included in your pretrib rapture verses??

Getting quite a collection.

You had better come to terms with the fact that EITHER all biblical prophecy and covenants have ALREADY been fulfilled (preterism) which of course is ridiculous. Or that all biblical prophecy and covenants will NEVER be fulfilled (amillennialism) which of course is impossible.

Unfortunately my friend it looks like you're stuck between ridiculous and impossible.

FreeGrace2 said:
No, John said in plain language that the gathering (or rapture to you) occurs WITH the Second Advent.
You have just admitted that you can't read very well. 2 Thess 2:1 says exactly that. And you just demonstrated WHY there is so much division among believers. Some just can't read what was written.

Actually, he didn't say THAT at all. See? You just keep demonstrating that you can't read very well.

This is what he actually said:

Concerning the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ and our being gathered to him, we ask you, brothers and sisters,

Paul was concerned about the Second Advent and what others were falsely teaching.

If this is the "way your Bible works atm is", then please provide any verse that tells us that raptured believers go up to heaven.

There sure are enough rapture verses/passages to choose from. Thanks.

FreeGrace2 said:
2 Thess 2 PROVES that the Lord's "coming" and "our being gathered to Him" is AFTER the man of sin is REVEALED.

Now, this is JUST classic! All you've got is smoke and mirrors. NO actual verses telling us that raptured people then go to heaven.

So you can stop pretending that they do. They don't or the Bible would have told us.
OK, you aren't reading v.1 very well. So let's look at v.3 then.

You have it exactly BACKWARD. This is what John actually wrote:

3 Don’t let anyone deceive you in any way, for that day will not come until the rebellion occurs and the man of lawlessness is revealed, the man doomed to destruction.

You will probably disagree, but "that day" refers to v.1 and "the coming of our Lord", because He actually comes on a DAY. So John clearly teaches that the Second Advent and gathering doesn't occur UNTIL the "rebellion" (guess what that means) occurs and the "man of lawlessness is revealed".

Well, I agree with you. They were concerned that they had missed the rapture. And v.3 makes clear that the rapture cannot occur UNTIL the rebellion occurs and the Beast #1 (aka ac) is revealed.

We call that the post-trib rapture.


Probably has something to do with God blinding the minds of the amillennialists as a matter of judgment. That's just a theory of mine anyways.[/QUOTE]

I've said in about a zillion past posts that it is parallel language.

I'm not just "now" including it.


It's just that few ppl actually look up the references I supply accompanying my "points," and ponder how they relate.


[and, in the same way, how Hab1:6,12 says, "For, lo, I RAISE UP THE CHALDEANS/BABYLONIANS, that bitter and hasty nation, which shall march through the breadth of the land, to possess the dwellingplaces that are not theirs... [...] O LORD, thou hast ordained them [the Chaldeans/Babylonians] FOR JUDGMENT [i.e. TO EXECUTE JUDGMENT]; and O mighty God, thou hast established them [the Chaldeans/Babylonians] FOR CORRECTION."]




Jesus is shown "IN THE MIDST OF the seven candlesticks [/seven churchES]" in the section of "the things WHICH ARE" [i.e. in the "NOW"] (and then the "movement" is...) "UNTIL out of the midst he be come [/come to be]. AND THEN [kai tote] shall that Wicked be revealed..." [aka SEAL #1--where the word "BOW" often represents "DECEPTION"] for the "FUTURE" aspects of the Book (per 1:1 / 1:19c / 4:1+ [7:3]-- so this is how 2Th2:7b-8a is PARALLEL LANGUAGE to that of Lam2:3-4 which says, "he hath drawn back his right hand from before the enemy..." [thereby saying, in effect, 'have at 'em!', like in Hab1:6,12!! ], His "restraining" being LIFTED, and "wrath" things ensuing)

Sure we've got gaps, gaps and more gaps......

Luke 21:24
“And they will fall by the edge of the sword, and be led away captive into all nations. And Jerusalem will be trampled by Gentiles until the times of the Gentiles are fulfilled.

Acts 1:6
Therefore, when they had come together, they asked Him, saying, “Lord, will You at this time restore the kingdom to Israel?”

Rom 11:25
For I do not desire, brethren, that you should be ignorant of this mystery, lest you should be wise in your own opinion, that blindness in part has happened to Israel until the fullness of the Gentiles has come in.

Acts 15:16
‘After this I will return
And will rebuild the tabernacle of David, which has fallen down;
I will rebuild its ruins,
And I will set it up;

Of course there are a ton more.....
Just to let you know, the 70th week of Daniel is by far the most documented period of time in all of the Bible. Nothing else even comes close. Which of course utterly destroys any amillennialist pretensions....

I'm confident the answer doesn't lie anywhere between heresy and another heresy. If you don't know then don't be afraid to say so, but proposing future animal sacrifices as a sin offering, quoting Ezekiel, is way out of line. That should be a red flag to you that you misinterpreted something.

Furthermore, I think the "all or nothing" approach to prophesy that you have is unBiblical. There are plenty of Bible prophecies that have not come to completion even though many already have been completed.

How so? (in this case), since 1Th5 IS *the SAME CONTEXT*... LOL

You obviously have something stuck in your mind that is not in the passage, that you read into it, and are so unaware that you are reading into it that you do not get it when other people point out what you are doing. Apparently you think the flood refers to the tribulation and getting into the boat is analogous with a pre-trib rapture.

Things may have gotten pretty messed up before the flood with the Nephelim, but people were still marrying. They were surprised, apparently, when the flood came. The passage says 'so shall also the of the Son of Man be. The passage already sets the coming of the Son of Man AFTER the tribulation. I quoted verses to show that.

Let's consider:
1. The passage sets the 'coming of the Son of Man' AFTER the tribulation.
2. Neither this nor any other scripture teaches a pre-trib rapture.

Therefore, it does not make sense to equate the flood with the pre-trib rapture scenario. For two reasons. A. The Bible does not teach pre-trib rapture. B. The passage sets the coming of the Son of Man AFTER the rapture.

I don't get you objection either. Don't you think the 'coming of the Son of Man' is seven years after the tribulation? The part about Noah and the flood is followed by 'so shall also the coming of the son of Man be.' So that part should not be up for debate.

The gathering together of the elect is set 'after the tribulation' in this passage, also.

Your interpretation is not possible because it contradicts the text.

Again I must protest! You are 2000 years off on your theory of the first seal. Don't take my word for it, read the context:

6 And I beheld, and, lo, in the midst of the throne and of the four beasts, and in the midst of the elders, stood a Lamb as it had been slain, having seven horns and seven eyes, which are the seven Spirits of God sent forth into all the earth.
7 And he came and took the book out of the right hand of him that sat upon the throne.

Jesus suddenly appeared in the throne room of heaven, and immediately sent the Holy Spirit down. WHEN? Around 32 AD.

The Greek behind "bow" is "toxon" from which word we get our English word toxic - and this came about from poison used on arrows. This Greek word, τόξον is found many times in the Septuagint for the bow that uses arrows. How Strong's ever came up with "a bow (apparently as the simplest fabric):—bow. " for "toxon" I will never know.

• The Greek word [Greek: toxon] signified primarily that specially oriental weapon which we call a bow, but the word in the earliest authors included in its meaning the arrow shot from the bow.
  Scientific American Supplement, No. 643, April 28, 1888

There is NOTHING in the description of the first seal that gives any hint whatsoever of deception or evil. John used "white" 17 times. Go ahead: look them up and you will see they represent righteousness or Godliness. Do you really think God would just "white" that way 16 times and once for deception? NEVER HAPPEN! ;-)

No problem amigo

Here is a list of ALL The bible verses that prove a pre-trib rapture:

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2. Neither this nor any other scripture teaches a pre-trib rapture.

This is only your opinion and untold millions disagree with you.

I could write, "there is no single scripture that proves a post-trib rapture."

Here is a list of verses proving a posttrib rapture: