Cessationism vs. continuationism...does it make any difference?

As I said to you, because you can't/unwilling to distinguish between signs and miracles, that is why you are not understanding the point that cessationalists are making.

Note, you can understand a point without agreeing with it.

The bottom line, and which our fine feathered friend doesn't understand, is that Jesus is the baptizer with the Spirit and the giver of the gifts. When He was in the flesh he demonstrated what Christian ministry was all about. Then he told His disciples that He was to go away to be their advocate and intercessor in Heaven, but He would not leave them to fall down the gurgler. He said that He would continue to be with them in the Person of the Holy Spirit who would fully represent Him. And the great difference would be that when He was with them in the flesh, He was outside of them, but the Holy Spirit will indwell them. So, having the Holy Spirit within them was the same has having Jesus in them. "Christ in you, the hope of glory".

Our friend actually insults the Lord by accusing Him of being an indian giver. He is denying the Scripture: "The gifts and calling of God are without repentance". This means that when Jesus sent the Holy Spirit, He sent Him along with His whole toolbox of supernatural gifts to be used to build up the body of Christ. He did not tell the Holy Spirit at the end of the 1st Century to give the toolbox back to Him. It's like telling a motor mechanic, "You can have the toolbox to fix the cars this year, but at the end of the year, you can't use them anymore, and all you can use next year is just one crescent wrench to fix the cars." That's about as ridiculous as it sounds, but that is what Cessationists are doing to the church. They are effectively saying that the gifts of the Holy Spirit were subject to repentance after the canon of Scripture was completed. In fact, the completion of Scripture was just another valuable tool added to the toolbox to give a solid foundation for the supernatural gifts to continue be used effectively as the Holy Spirit distributes them.

What Cessationists have done is to empty the toolbox of all the effective tools, and put in the service manual instead. It's like training the mechanic to know everything in the service manual, but not let him have the tools to use that knowledge to actually fix the cars.

I don't really care. If someone gets healed of terminal cancer and his whole unsaved family turns to Christ, along with his uncles, aunts, cousins, neighbors, friends and workmates, then that miracle is definitely a sign to unbelievers!

But when it doesn't happen and someone dies of cancer, you will say "its because someone here lacks faith"?

I don't know how you arrived at that. I have never, never used "lack of faith" as a reason for anyone not getting healed. Did you know that John Wesley's horse became lame during one of Wesley's journeys, and the uneven gait of the horse gave him a headache. So he stopped, raised his eyes to heaven and asked the Lord for healing. The Lord immediately healed him of the headache, and the horse got healed of lameness at the same time. Wasn't it great that Wesley's horse, named Dan, had faith to be healed!

By the way, did you know that during Wesley's years of ministry, there were 250 documented and verified instances of miraculous healing. Funny that, seeing that miraculous healing ceased at the end of the 1st Century... Unless you are saying that those healing events were not of God.

The bottom line, and which our fine feathered friend doesn't understand, is that Jesus is the baptizer with the Spirit and the giver of the gifts. When He was in the flesh he demonstrated what Christian ministry was all about. Then he told His disciples that He was to go away to be their advocate and intercessor in Heaven, but He would not leave them to fall down the gurgler. He said that He would continue to be with them in the Person of the Holy Spirit who would fully represent Him. And the great difference would be that when He was with them in the flesh, He was outside of them, but the Holy Spirit will indwell them. So, having the Holy Spirit within them was the same has having Jesus in them. "Christ in you, the hope of glory".

Our friend actually insults the Lord by accusing Him of being an indian giver. He is denying the Scripture: "The gifts and calling of God are without repentance". This means that when Jesus sent the Holy Spirit, He sent Him along with His whole toolbox of supernatural gifts to be used to build up the body of Christ. He did not tell the Holy Spirit at the end of the 1st Century to give the toolbox back to Him. It's like telling a motor mechanic, "You can have the toolbox to fix the cars this year, but at the end of the year, you can't use them anymore, and all you can use next year is just one crescent wrench to fix the cars." That's about as ridiculous as it sounds, but that is what Cessationists are doing to the church. They are effectively saying that the gifts of the Holy Spirit were subject to repentance after the canon of Scripture was completed. In fact, the completion of Scripture was just another valuable tool added to the toolbox to give a solid foundation for the supernatural gifts to continue be used effectively as the Holy Spirit distributes them.

What Cessationists have done is to empty the toolbox of all the effective tools, and put in the service manual instead. It's like training the mechanic to know everything in the service manual, but not let him have the tools to use that knowledge to actually fix the cars.

It never ceases to amaze me how people who disbelieve expect to see miracles.
Just answer the question and stop with the smoke screen. You have nothing but claims just like the Mormons and RCC.

If somebody was raised from the dead before your very eyes you would not believe, or you would not believe it was God.
I most certainly do believe in miracles, it is the baseless claims of miracles that I don't believe in.

You won't see, stop looking for evidence, you'll get eye strain. God will hide it from you.
No one "looks for evidence" of the ongoing, that is absurd. This is why by nature the pentecostal narrative is bogus.

Miracles are for believers.
Read your Bible, miracles are for both believers and non-believers. I can't believe you wrote this.

I know of no Bible that excludes the verses you are talking about. Do you know of any?

There are a number of Bibles that do exclude certain verses but not Mark 16.

What you think may have happened during the Fourth Century AD is not germaine, the verses are there.

You are just casting doubt on the completeness of the Bible.

Hi Wattie,

Does Paul write about the canon of scripture anywhere chapter 13 (or anywhere else in 1 Corinthians, for that matter) though? The idea is foreign to the context. Other than that, now that we have the completed scriptures, do you now “know fully, even as you are fully known “? The last New Testament book was written 35 years after 1 Corinthians. Would it be persuasive for Paul to say, “We know love will never end because it will last more than 35 years “?
I think you’re very mistaken in your view. The perfect has to be the parousia, when we no longer see “through a glass, darkly” but see face to face. This phrase is used throughout Old Testament of people seeing God.
So no, can’t accept your view - but this doesn’t change our being brothers and encouraging each other, of course.

Maybe 'cessationism' was the same doctrine avant la lettre held by the Pharisees. They confessed with their lips the God of Abraham, they knew the Bible very well, the miracles and the signs registered in it but couldn't believe that the same miracles and signs could occur during their time...'that was long ago; yes, Moses split the red sea in two, but that was then, now it's a whole different story' might have been their thought.
They considered John the Baptist a buffoon and Jesus Christ a deceiver.

Thanks for the reply,

In regards to knowing fully as I am known.. as Paul wrote it.. he was talking about seeing in a mirror darkly and then face to face..

An obscured image.. then as Paul was viewing.. to a complete image .. clear mirror.. face to face..
The bible was in process at Paul's time of writing. Not the paper so much.. as the process of God's progressing revelation through the establishment of the early churches and empowerment of the apostles. God was doing some special, rare work through His apostles and saints for a particular purposes.

The bible now complete, gives people a complete image of who they are. The mirror is clear. It is not obscured.. the revelation of God's Word in the past is now complete is not longer 'in part'.

Yeah.. the parousia in the OT is used to refer to seeing God.. but it is always dependent on the context around it. The reason 1 Corinthians 13 can be about the canon is because it is God's progressing revelation.. and that is what is in 1 Corinthians 13 with the gifts of tongues, prophecy and knowledge.

What was in part when Paul was writing? Whatever that is.. is the same as what would be completed, perfect.

Anyway,

Blessings and encouragement back

17And these signs shall follow them that believe; In my name shall they cast out devils; they shall speak with new tongues;
18They shall take up serpents; and if they drink any deadly thing, it shall not hurt them; they shall lay hands on the sick, and they shall recover.
Mark 16 .
Are we seeing this today?

Who cares? Is our faith based on what we can see, or on Scripture? If God's word says that the signs and wonders accompany the preaching of the Gospel and that the supernatural gifts of the Spirit are given to the church for everyone to profit, and are distributed to all according to the will of the Holy Spirit, then God's Word is true, and our observation is unreliable.

Cessationism

They worship head knowledge and think salvation is achieved by how much of the Bible they know or think they know.

They claim the gifts are not for today because it insults their intellect like the well-educated Greeks and philosophers. The Cross is foolishness to them. Paul said speaking about the "Last days in 2 Tim chapter 3 and warning bout those who have crept into the church




1 But know this, that in the last days perilous times will come: 2 For men will be lovers of themselves, lovers of money, boasters, proud, blasphemers, disobedient to parents, unthankful, unholy, 3 unloving, unforgiving, slanderers, without self-control, brutal, despisers of good, 4 traitors, headstrong, haughty, lovers of pleasure rather than lovers of God, 5 having a form of godliness but denying its power. (dynamis) And from such people turn away! 6 For of this sort are those who creep into households and make captives of gullible women loaded down with sins, led away by various lusts, 7 always learning and never able to come to the knowledge of the truth.

the gifts of the Holy Spirit offend their intelligence. Why? Because they are incapable of accepting what is clearly seen in scripture and they are embarrassed by those who have misused them. It has to be this because we agree with them of those who are fake and foolish and fleecing the flock for money.


But that's not it. They attack the Gifts of the Holy Spirit because it is not rational thinking. Yet those who attack the fake on TV and those who are perverting the gifts of the Holy Spirit for money those who also on tv speaking out against it

Wearing $1000 suites and have over 6 figure salaries.

Those who are concessionist too are very rich it seems Just not as flamboyant as those they speak out against.

FYI that is called a hypocrite. They base the whole Idea that the Gifts of the Holy Spirit are not for today not because of the foolishness of those who do abuse them no,

They will show you videos to reinforce their idea that once the Bible was canonized the gifts just stopped. Then show you the fake use of the Gifts of the Holy Spirit and YELL SEE it has stopped.

But when asked please prove that 1cor chapter 13: 8-9 means the gifts have stopped


8 Love never fails. But whether there are prophecies, they will fail; whether there are tongues, they will cease; whether there is knowledge, it will vanish away. 9 For we know in part and we prophesy in part. 10 But when that which is perfect has come, then that which is in part will be done away.


WE ask them how do you translate or interpret this to mean that the "Perfect" is the canonization of the Bible?
They can't. They will give you a history lesson and human reasoning but they can't show you from the word of God this to mean the Gifts of the Holy Spirit has stopped and not for today.



They get very mad then attack you and start to name call kind of like a liberal snowflake wearing a pink hat.

Oh wait look at this fake video of Benny Hinn, or Kenneth Copland, or this guy to that guy or women, then they jump into 1cor 14 about women being silent. All those who say this wearing $1000 suites


Excuse me please show me the proof from the Word of God?

I did! I gave you 1cor 13:8-9 you are just to wolven into your pentacostel doctrine. look at this video.

But.... 1cor 13:8-9 doesn't say the gift has ceased, it says they will cease and I am asking you how is the "perfect" to mean the bible?


IS NOT THE WORD OF GOD PERFECT!!!!!

Yes, it is amen, but so are the Holy Spirits' gifts. Has the Holy Spirit ever gave anything to the church that was not perfect?

Listen !!!!! the KJV Bible is that which was perfect to Come OK !!!!!


Ok, But Jesus said in the KJV Bible in Mark 16:15-18


5 And He said to them, “Go into all the world and preach the gospel to every creature. 16 He who believes and is baptized will be saved, but he who does not believe will be condemned. 17 And these signs will follow those who believe: In My name, they will cast out demons; they will speak with new tongues; 18 they will take up serpents; and if they drink anything deadly, it will by no means hurt them; they will lay hands on the sick, and they will recover.”


THAT WAS ADDED AN NOT PART OF THE ORIGINAL TRANSLATION !!!

I see,


Thank you, and I will continue to pray with my understand and pray in the Spirit, I will lay hands on the sick and see those saved and addictions are broken by the Power of the Holy Spirit as I preach the Gospel message of the Lord Jesus Christ, having the word of God confirmed with signs & wonders.

By those set free, saved, delivered, and yes healed. IF you are not seeing that don't get mad at me because I am, You talk to your Boss and ask HIM why you are not.

you keep your power/point presentation there is no power in it so what's the point?

You think your level of knowledge, has saved you and keeps you saved. You provide no hope to the addicted or the sick because you are afraid and have doubt. You are fearful to trust God because your eyes are on those who abuse the gifts instead of keeping your eyes on Jesus. And you are more concerned about what the world thinks about you.

You think that you can save someone from error because of your human reasoning. You have an issue with those on tv then address those people not the gift of the Holy Spirit.

seeking the occult and pagan practices and trying to toe tag the Gifts of the Holy Spirit to it. Shame on you. You have an issue with

Kenneth Copland, and those on TV Please I'm sure you have the ability to get their address and phone number and speak to them about their error You have my blessing to do so.

Cessationism

They worship head knowledge and think salvation is achieved by how much of the Bible they know or think they know.

They claim the gifts are not for today because it insults their intellect like the well-educated Greeks and philosophers. The Cross is foolishness to them. Paul said speaking about the "Last days in 2 Tim chapter 3 and warning bout those who have crept into the church




1 But know this, that in the last days perilous times will come: 2 For men will be lovers of themselves, lovers of money, boasters, proud, blasphemers, disobedient to parents, unthankful, unholy, 3 unloving, unforgiving, slanderers, without self-control, brutal, despisers of good, 4 traitors, headstrong, haughty, lovers of pleasure rather than lovers of God, 5 having a form of godliness but denying its power. (dynamis) And from such people turn away! 6 For of this sort are those who creep into households and make captives of gullible women loaded down with sins, led away by various lusts, 7 always learning and never able to come to the knowledge of the truth.

the gifts of the Holy Spirit offend their intelligence. Why? Because they are incapable of accepting what is clearly seen in scripture and they are embarrassed by those who have misused them. It has to be this because we agree with them of those who are fake and foolish and fleecing the flock for money.


But that's not it. They attack the Gifts of the Holy Spirit because it is not rational thinking. Yet those who attack the fake on TV and those who are perverting the gifts of the Holy Spirit for money those who also on tv speaking out against it

Wearing $1000 suites and have over 6 figure salaries.

Those who are concessionist too are very rich it seems Just not as flamboyant as those they speak out against.

FYI that is called a hypocrite. They base the whole Idea that the Gifts of the Holy Spirit are not for today not because of the foolishness of those who do abuse them no,

They will show you videos to reinforce their idea that once the Bible was canonized the gifts just stopped. Then show you the fake use of the Gifts of the Holy Spirit and YELL SEE it has stopped.

But when asked please prove that 1cor chapter 13: 8-9 means the gifts have stopped


8 Love never fails. But whether there are prophecies, they will fail; whether there are tongues, they will cease; whether there is knowledge, it will vanish away. 9 For we know in part and we prophesy in part. 10 But when that which is perfect has come, then that which is in part will be done away.


WE ask them how do you translate or interpret this to mean that the "Perfect" is the canonization of the Bible?
They can't. They will give you a history lesson and human reasoning but they can't show you from the word of God this to mean the Gifts of the Holy Spirit has stopped and not for today.



They get very mad then attack you and start to name call kind of like a liberal snowflake wearing a pink hat.

Oh wait look at this fake video of Benny Hinn, or Kenneth Copland, or this guy to that guy or women, then they jump into 1cor 14 about women being silent. All those who say this wearing $1000 suites


Excuse me please show me the proof from the Word of God?

I did! I gave you 1cor 13:8-9 you are just to wolven into your pentacostel doctrine. look at this video.

But.... 1cor 13:8-9 doesn't say the gift has ceased, it says they will cease and I am asking you how is the "perfect" to mean the bible?


IS NOT THE WORD OF GOD PERFECT!!!!!

Yes, it is amen, but so are the Holy Spirits' gifts. Has the Holy Spirit ever gave anything to the church that was not perfect?

Listen !!!!! the KJV Bible is that which was perfect to Come OK !!!!!


Ok, But Jesus said in the KJV Bible in Mark 16:15-18


5 And He said to them, “Go into all the world and preach the gospel to every creature. 16 He who believes and is baptized will be saved, but he who does not believe will be condemned. 17 And these signs will follow those who believe: In My name, they will cast out demons; they will speak with new tongues; 18 they will take up serpents; and if they drink anything deadly, it will by no means hurt them; they will lay hands on the sick, and they will recover.”


THAT WAS ADDED AN NOT PART OF THE ORIGINAL TRANSLATION !!!

I see,


Thank you, and I will continue to pray with my understand and pray in the Spirit, I will lay hands on the sick and see those saved and addictions are broken by the Power of the Holy Spirit as I preach the Gospel message of the Lord Jesus Christ, having the word of God confirmed with signs & wonders.

By those set free, saved, delivered, and yes healed. IF you are not seeing that don't get mad at me because I am, You talk to your Boss and ask HIM why you are not.

you keep your power/point presentation there is no power in it so what's the point?

You think your level of knowledge, has saved you and keeps you saved. You provide no hope to the addicted or the sick because you are afraid and have doubt. You are fearful to trust God because your eyes are on those who abuse the gifts instead of keeping your eyes on Jesus. And you are more concerned about what the world thinks about you.

You think that you can save someone from error because of your human reasoning. You have an issue with those on tv then address those people not the gift of the Holy Spirit.

seeking the occult and pagan practices and trying to toe tag the Gifts of the Holy Spirit to it. Shame on you. You have an issue with

Kenneth Copland, and those on TV Please I'm sure you have the ability to get their address and phone number and speak to them about their error You have my blessing to do so.

Yes ,if that's what Mark 16 actually said ..Thats quite the paraphrase there .