Support Israel? Yes or No? And Why?

Unreadable Chaos

You cannot look up the Scripture references because they are "bolded," or what?

Luke 21:20-23KJV
20 And when ye shall see Jerusalem compassed with armies, then know that the desolation thereof is nigh.
21 Then let them which are in Judaea flee to the mountains; and let them which are in the midst of it depart out; and let not them that are in the countries enter thereinto.
22 For these be the days of vengeance, that all things which are written may be fulfilled.
23 But woe unto them that are with child, and to them that give suck, in those days! for there shall be great distress in the land, and wrath upon this people.

It may be theologically debated on rather a Christian should support Israel. However, no matter what side you take, Israel will still be prophetically standing for the Revelation events to occur. Israel should be supported politically because they are the only nation in that region that promotes human rights, religious freedom, and a Democratic system of government where the people have the freedom to vote. Their counterintelligence on terrorist organizations is crucial for national security for America and our allies. Due to our aligned beliefs on religious freedom, human rights, and defense from terrorism, many in the middle east consider Israel and America the same. Both infidels and worthy of destruction.

Theologically it is debated because some believe the Old Testament verses like this one below to be obsolete.

Genesis 12:2-3
New International Version
2 “I will make you into a great nation,
and I will bless you;
I will make your name great,
and you will be a blessing.
3 I will bless those who bless you,
and whoever curses you I will curse;
and all peoples on earth
will be blessed through you.”

This is just my interpretation, but I know for a fact that nowhere else in scripture does it counter this promise. Nowhere is it canceled. The bottom portion of verse 3 was completed in Jesus Christ as all people on the Earth were blessed through Jesus's sacrifice. As for the fulfillment of the Old Testament, this is related to the demands of the Mosaic ceremonial laws, judicial laws, and completion of Old Testament prophecy.

I do not see where the promise of I will bless those who bless you, and whoever curses you I will curse, stops from being true.

Not only were the Abrahamic promises *not* cancelled, but they were affirmed by Paul.

Gal 3.17 What I mean is this: The law, introduced 430 years later, does not set aside the covenant previously established by God and thus do away with the promise.

So the introduction of the NT period did *not* annul the promises God made to Abraham. I believe, however, that even though Israel has a place in future prophecy, Israel, like all other nations, has to be judged. When we support Israel, therefore, it is not a carte blanche embrace of all things Jewish or all things Israel. Like all other international treaties, the concern has to be focused on the national interest. As a US citizen, I have to be sensitive to the fact some of the largest populations of Jews in the world are here in the US, and they would naturally have an interest in a Jewish nation. I also have to be sensitive to the fact Israel is a democracy in a sea of Muslim theocracies.

Since the US is a eclectic mix of ethnicities in a secular democracy, there might be a concern, as well, for Arabs, Palestinians, Iranians, etc. However, as a conservative Christian in the US, I would err on the side of Israel, due primarily to my sense that justice leans more on the side of the Jews than on the side of the Palestinians. Though both Islam and Judaism are wrong religions, in my view, I see Judaism today as much more amenable to Christianity than Islam. And I see current Jewish feelings as closer to a Christian sense of justice than Muslims.

Moreover, having become familiar with both Scriptures and Jewish experiences in NT history I have a deep sense of compassion, knowing that God wishes to use Israel as an example to the world of His enduring wish to restore nations, to restore those who have fallen from the way. It is a universal example of grace and mercy--something we should all subscribe to. I don't see the Muslim populations of the world, and the atheistic and agnostic populations of the world, show any love for Israel in this regard. I strongly resist that!

Since the US is a eclectic mix of ethnicities in a secular democracy

What we see happen in New York and other places with the increase of anti-Semitism and attacks on Jews People and Israel and by those "liberal Christians" should concern the church.

I agree with everything in your post but I must ask, are we a secular democracy in the definition of secular? Where do our rights come from, our foundation of laws and is religion barred from government? We of course, we are not a theocracy but we see not absent of God either.

This part of Luke 21 is not speaking of the far-future Tribulation Period, as you seem to suggest by your coupling it with such references (Rev11:2 and Zech13:8); but rather is speaking of the events surrounding 70ad, as is all of vv.12-23,24a.


[see Matt22:7 and Lk19:41-44 and Dan9:26b]

I apologize in advance--you likely will not like my answer--nobody seems to. US Democracy is not the 10 Commandments, and of course, not a Christian Theocracy. I am not *against* Christian theocracies, if one can call them that?

For me, a Christian Theocracy is not a religious dictatorship, but what God has always wanted--Christian nations with Christian governments. The US democratic system was, at one time, a type of Christian theocracy, as I call it, because it preferred Christianity, even though it tolerated nonChristian beliefs and religious practices.

Eventually, non-Christian beliefs and practices grew as big as or bigger than Christian beliefs. It became more important to protect minority pagan religions than it did to uphold Christian morals. And so US Democracy today is no longer theocratic in any sense. It holds as equal abortion and a prohibition on murder. It holds as equal homosexuality as heterosexual marriage. Christianity, Judaism, Islam, and paganism are all equal in the eyes of our Constitutional system, whereas originally I don't think that was really what was intended. Tolerance was not legal guarantees that pagan practices were acceptable.

In my view religious pluralism, as guaranteed by our Secular Democracy, is equal to idolatry. God said to a nation that as a majority consent to following only Him: "Have no other gods." Secular Democracies today say: "All religions are equal, and should be equally tolerated and accepted." Christian Monotheism is not equal to Religious Plurlaism. Christianity does not equal Idolatry!

We currently operate out of a constitution that acknowledges God and Jesus as it was signed in the year of our Lord. It set the foundation and protected the right to religion which allows morality to help fight corruption in the government. Our laws are by majority are founded in scripture as the Bible was the most referenced book. I say all this because I am not ignorant of reality. Of course, our government has shifted far from it's roots BUT they have yet to uproot the roots. So technically we are not a secular by definition nation. We are still a Christian nation as defined by the Supreme Court.

We currently operate out of a constitution that acknowledges God and Jesus as it was signed in the year of our Lord. It set the foundation and protected the right to religion which allows morality to help fight corruption in the government. Our laws are by majority are founded in scripture as the Bible was the most referenced book. I say all this because I am not ignorant of reality. Of course, our government has shifted far from it's roots BUT they have yet to uproot the roots. So technically we are not a secular by definition nation. We are still a Christian nation as defined by the Supreme Court.

When a person is speaking of God the father its capital "G" showing deity

To put it in lower caps is claiming God the father is a false god

An eye for and eye comes from the Bible, perhaps you didn't know that. No where in the Bible does it say a country cannot defend it's people. In fact, it's the opposite. War is not killing to kill. Israel has a right to defend her people. Every country, literally every country defends its people. You're talking absolute nonsense.

TheDivineWatermark said:
This part of Luke 21 is not speaking of the far-future Tribulation Period, as you seem to suggest by your coupling it with such references (Rev11:2 and Zech13:8); but rather is speaking of the events surrounding 70ad, as is all of vv.12-23,24a.

[see Matt22:7 and Lk19:41-44 and Dan9:26b]

Your "Preterist" claims are false

No the Antichrist of Daniel hasnt been revealed already whoever, Antiochus Epiphanies, Nero, Titus, Vespasian?

No the great tribulation didnt take place in 70AD

I'm not "Preterist".

I believe the tribulation period is yet future, even from our present-day perspective.



I agree, the AC is yet future, from our present-day perspective; he will be "revealed" at the start of the future Trib years, as I've said in many past posts.



I did not say it did.

Read again, more carefully.

The "great tribulation," i.e. the last 1260 days / 42 mos / 3.5 yrs, NOR the entire 7-yr tribulation have yet come into play. Certainly not.

They are also yet future, from our present-day perspective; ONLY verses Lk21:12-24a speak of the "70ad events" which, as v.12 says, must come "BEFORE ALL" the beginning of birth pangs that vv.8-11 had just described... and which "beginning of birth pangs" are what "kick off" the future tribulation period according to Paul speaking of its "ARRIVAL" / its manner of arrival, in 1Th5:2-3 and that passage's correlations / parallel passages.



So, yes, I agree the trib and its AC are "future"... Lk21:12-24a is referencing neither of those.

But that passage (Lk21:12-24a) does supply "chronology" issues.

In Luke 21:12-24a, the only part of the Olivet Discourse covering the 70ad events, that section starts out informing us that "before" the beginning of birth pangs can occur, the 70ad events of vv.12-24a must take place including "and they shall be led away captive into all the nations," and "Jerusalem shall be trodden down of the Gentiles UNTIL..." which are two lengthy things that correspond with Daniel 9:26b's "desolationS [plural] are determined" in that "sequential" passage of Dan9:24-27a/b/c, with v.27a/b/c being yet "future" aka the trib years, and v.26b identifying the person-of-interest (the AC) of that "future" time-period.

Your claim is false, you did make a "Preterist" claim regarding the great tribulation seen in Luke 21 being fulfilled in 70AD

I will refrain from further response to your games and written chaos

Quote: DivineWaterMark post #1243 above

"This part of Luke 21 is not speaking of the far-future Tribulation Period, as you seem to suggest by your coupling it with such references (Rev11:2 and Zech13:8); but rather is speaking of the events surrounding 70ad, as is all of vv.12-23,24a."

Your claim is "False", the promise was fulfilled in "One Seed" Jesus Christ, as you suggest "Those" plural "False" and only based upon ethnic Heritage in fleshly (Jews)

The Church is fulfillment by "Faith" in Jesus Christ, and are the children of God

Unsaved Jews of The flesh are not the children of God

Galatians 3:16KJV
16 Now to Abraham and his seed were the promises made. He saith not, And to seeds, as of many; but as of one, And to thy seed, which is Christ.
17 And this I say, that the covenant, that was confirmed before of God in Christ, the law, which was four hundred and thirty years after, cannot disannul, that it should make the promise of none effect.
18 For if the inheritance be of the law, it is no more of promise: but God gave it to Abraham by promise.
19 Wherefore then serveth the law? It was added because of transgressions, till the seed should come to whom the promise was made; and it was ordained by angels in the hand of a mediator.
20 Now a mediator is not a mediator of one, but God is one.
21 Is the law then against the promises of God? God forbid: for if there had been a law given which could have given life, verily righteousness should have been by the law.
22 But the scripture hath concluded all under sin, that the promise by faith of Jesus Christ might be given to them that believe.
23 But before faith came, we were kept under the law, shut up unto the faith which should afterwards be revealed.
24 Wherefore the law was our schoolmaster to bring us unto Christ, that we might be justified by faith.
25 But after that faith is come, we are no longer under a schoolmaster.
26 For ye are all the children of God by faith in Christ Jesus.
27 For as many of you as have been baptized into Christ have put on Christ.
28 There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither bond nor free, there is neither male nor female: for ye are all one in Christ Jesus.
29 And if ye be Christ's, then are ye Abraham's seed, and heirs according to the promise.