Pentecostalism's sketchy origins

Prophecy is not a language it is the gifts of the Holy Spirit which is supernatural the context is Spiritual gifts. Found in chapter 12 which is completed in chapter 14..

You just because the word "Tongues has the meaning languages also that is not the full context of the word.

As you were told 1000 times. Taking a word like " tongues" in this case that has a systematic range of meanings and we use what best fits with the context which was established in chapter 12 ending in chapter 14 of 1cor NOT at 1cor 13:8-10.

Prophecies are not various languages. It is a gift given to one BY the Holy Spirit who is speaking under the inspiration specifically as 1cor 12, 13, and 14 application of both words.

I can show you where I have and others said this to you many many times yet you keep coming back to the false narrative and bias you have.
Now how long will it before you return to the topic of Topeka and Toronto?

According to the Henry George Liddell, Robert Scott, A Greek-English Lexicon


There are no Greek Words meaning Speaking in Tongues or Tongues as a Gift of the Holy Spirit.

again if one does not include the full and complete unit chapter of 1cor chapter 12- through 14 using a Greek translation of a Word is meaningless. The authorial intent starts in chapter 11 and goes to chapter `14 that is why they are known as unit chapters . Surely you realize chapters in the bible were added and the context of the writer doesn't alwAYS END WITH THE Chapter.

Paul did not write his letters originally with chapters. Context can and does move through the chapters as it does here with 1cor 12 through 14.

the authorial intent was to not have one ignorant of Spiritual gifts 1cor 12:1

Pentecostalism was founded in the Book of Acts Chapter 2. Men who attempted to rediscover the truths in the book of Acts after the dark ages of Catholicism and the incomplete work of the reformation are not the standard. Their inperfections and lack of understanding does not negate the fact that they rediscovered some actual truths in their efforts. It did not take long for people to correct the mistaken idea that tongues were for evangelizing foreign nations while still understanding that they did have a valid purpose in the church.

Today we can exegete the scriptures and with scholarly authors such as Gordon Fee, William and Robert Menzies, Roger Stronsdat, Craig Keener and others discover that continuationist theology and Pentecostalism is a superiour hermeneutic to ceasationsim.

And the sullied past of particular characters in the Pentecostal movement does not change that. Your premise is erroneous in that you you are thinking that Pentecostals have not founded their doctrine on scripture alone. Most Pentecostals you meet today (better known as Spirit Filled) read the book of Acts after they got saved and as they did the Holy Spirit put within them an expectation of faith that they could experience the same things they read about the early church experiencing and they asked for it and received it.

Most of these will tell you that they never heard of Azusa street, Parham, Seymour or others until later. Calvin, Luther, Augustine, Wesley, Whitfield, Jonathan Edwards all had something that you would find to be a mistaken understanding because we all know in part until that which is perfect is come which is when we are resurrected and see him face to face. Parham's ignorance or scandals in ministry does not cast a shadow on the book of Acts.

So after pointing out all the errors you can find in something someone said or wrote throughout the 1900s early American Pentecostal movement discussion is over you still have to look at the scriptures and ask the question "Can I have the same experience and operate in the same Holy Spirit Gifts that were given to the 1st century church today?" And you might also ask the question that they were asking in the Topeka and Houston Bible college, "What is the common sign or evidence of those that were baptized in the Holy Spirit" and you will still find that the answer is speaking in tongues. Asking and receiving the experience of the baptism of the Holy Spirit for Power to be a witness and the gift of tongues and then going out and doing the work of the ministry like never before, changing your community and the world will be the answer, and you will no longer be interested in the the merely academic argument as to whether it is possible or not.

I would that all God's people were prophets and that he would pour out His Spirit upon them all....

I am half Sephardim Jew, the Hebrew Scrolls were written in Tagin, which is a calligraphic style others would see as a run on of words reading right to left.

I disagree and the Vice-Chancellor of Oxford University and dean is not an authority on the word of God.


The early church father which again was listed many times before made it clear about the empowering of the Holy Spirit and utterances, I have listed many of them. From

Irenaeus, theologian of the Holy Spirit,

"The Spirit continues Christ's work in the church, which is itself a gift from the Spirit "



Tertullian,

Tertullian (ca. 160–255 AD), one of the great defenders of orthodox Christianity, addressed his baptismal candidates to expect the gifts. He would proclaim, “When you come up from the most sacred bath of the new birth, when you spread out your hands … ask your Father, ask your Lord, for the special gift of his inheritance, the distribution of the charisms.”


"the very same Spirit who raised Christ from the dead and will also raise our deceased bodies"

and on and on it goes down through the church ages all of them.

Your point is not well-founded. the authorial intent is seen from the art and Science of Proper biblical interpretation known as hermeneutics. the tranlation of Both Old and New testaments has been well established and presented to where the Jew, the Hebrew Scrolls can be read in an appropriate Canonized Bible and receive clearly the intent of the author.

Your point is not well-founded after the fact 1cor chapters `12 through 14 have already been established. Are you suggesting one change that which is given already?

And yet, on display are the 4 column scrolls in Jerusalem written in Tagin.

that is a smokescreen I say that respectfully. as you know we have over 56 000 manuscripts and no originals, yet

the Holy Spirit, Spirit of the Lord, Spirit of the Living God is clearly seen in the writings and the empowerment also by the Spirit of the Lord, I have not heard anyone have an issue with the translation of the Holy Spirt and HIS works in the Old Testament Yet are you taking issue with the new?

That is Isaiah by the way.

Every Generation has produced [sofers], scribe to the English, and they have hand copied from the original to the modern version. And still to this very day, sofers are hand copying each Tanakh Scroll.

and?

How am I having issue with it?
I might have issue that someone decided to call it differently than what they have been called for Centuries, but that would be it. It's the usage of man made terms like Contemporary, Typology, Soteriology, Christology, Etymology, Eschatology, Ecclesiology, etc. It's a joke and gives me a good laugh.

Nowhere did God ever tell man to put the Bible into categories and give it uninspired names. If God wanted it for His Word, He would have had the Disciple do it.

Instead, we have the supposed learned looking more uneducated by using a conglomeration of unnecessary and non Holy Spirit Inspired categories.

I am asking? Your point is not well founded

It doesn't have to be well founded as long as it is the truth.

Where Angela said she stops beliving in the gifts of the Holy Spirit?
This was the mainpoint of my post.

Do you read English at all? The post you quoted, I said I ONLY did not believe in tongues. I most certainly do believe in many gifts of the Spirit, the ones that Pentecostals never talk about. That is why I put some lists up, straight from the Bible, of what God says are the gifts. And the gifts that lasted to our day, are very important. Everyone needs gifts of the Holy Spirit. I told you my husband has the gift of helps, I have the gift of teaching, and a few other things.

I even asked people to write down their gift, except for tongues. I just can't believe a 1900 year gap in tongues was orchestrated by God, esp. when it is mostly garble and nonsense, and doesn't make sense linguistically. It is just babble. I do believe in the truth. A man I knew who converted from Hindi, became a great evangelist. He was preaching at a meeting, and he said 4 words out loud, in the middle of his preaching. He had no idea why it happened. At the end of the meeting, a man ran up from the back, with a napkin in his hand -he asked my friend what languages he spoke. He said Hindi and English. The man asked him how he could speak perfect Armenian (the country, not the doctrine!). The name said in Armenian, "Jesus Christ is Lord!" So, my friend told him the gospel, and he was saved. His wife and son came to the front, and they also believed and received. Every time the evangelist went back to that town, the man would invite him to his house, with more and more family and friends, who also got saved. 27 people in all! Now, that is real speaking in tongues. And the interpreting spoke the actual language it was said in. That's not noisy babbling, that is speaking 4 words in a real language and getting saved. I have heard missionaries on the field sometimes experience this, even Baptist ones. So, I never discount REAL tongues - speaking in a real language to communicate the gospel, and many people get saved. But, not the stuff and nonsense that goes on in charismatic/Pentecostal churches. That is cacophony!

I don't have a bias - I have the truth of the Bible. I watched 15 years in charismatic and pentecostal churches that got farther and farther away from the Biblical way to change - which is to be transformed by the renewing of our mind, as the Holy Spirit leads us. (See also 2 Cor. 3:18)

"Do not conform to the pattern of this world, but be transformed by the renewing of your mind. Then you will be able to test and approve what God’s will is—his good, pleasing and perfect will." Romans 12:2

And right after these instructions, Paul gives a gift list! It is instructive to realize Paul is no longer adding tongues, which I believe died out in the early church, as the message of the gospel was more important than signs and wonders.

"We have different gifts,according to the grace given to each of us. If your gift is prophesying, then prophesy in accordance with your faith; 7 if it is serving, then serve; if it is teaching, then teach; 8 if it is to encourage, then give encouragement; if it is giving, then give generously; if it is to lead, do it diligently; if it is to show mercy, do it cheerfully." Romans 12:6-8

My gift from the Holy Spirit is teaching. I also have the gift of encouragement, which I use all the time in RL and on the internet.

So, no more nonsense about not believing in the gifts. I just don't believe in speaking in tongues and interpretation, done as they are in Word Faith, Bethel, charismatic and pentecostal churches.

I have never said tongues are from the devil, or that it is Hindu chatter or pagan. You are using sweeping generalizations to attack people. I am respectful to beliefs, and my goal is to show people the truth of the Bible, not win a stupid argument. You don't seem to remember what people write. You construct these straw men, then knock them down, and say, "I won!" Sorry, you don't even know what I believe from what you have said here, nor do you know the Bible as well as me, not because I am bragging, but because of all the times I read it, and studied it in seminary.

Really, my concern about tongues, is that this wrong doctrine has taken over Pentecostal and Charismatic Churches, to say nothing of Word of Faith doctrine, which I do think comes from the devil, like Jesus going to hell, and we being "little gods." Talk about terrible doctrine! People are looking for crazy experiences and claim, "That was God!" Nope, it is not. God is not contained within his gifts, he is the giver of gifts. After 15 horrible years in Pentecostal Churches I left, and I found churches that preach what I am reading in my Bible - every day, all the verses. Not just Acts 2 and a small passage in 1 Cor. 12 that Paul wrote for correction.

The way to Christian maturity that I was taught when I went to Pentecostal churches, was the Baptism of the Holy Spirit. Get your second blessing and the future will be perfect! But the Biblical way is that we are sanctified in association with the Holy Spirit. It is progressive, and we need to be renewing our minds on the Word of God. All of it.

If tongues was a small part of charismatic churches, and the sermons, songs were teaching the whole Bible, I probably would not even care about this discussion. But, people keep posting that tongues is this, that or the other thing. It is an obsession. Proof that you do walk with Christ. But, people who truly walk with God need no proof. I have been walking with Christ since he saved me in May, 1980, and reading my Bible daily. To say nothing of studying the whole Bible, and theology.

Tongues as they exist today are off the mark. I urge everyone to start reading the whole Bible, daily. Start with 3 chapters of the OT, and 1 of the NT. I also read a Psalm daily, & in German and Koine Greek. That is how to grow! God speaks to us in the written word in this day and age.

Stop telling me I am a liar, and stop lying about me, who you know nothing about. I can only pray that some people will take my challenge and start reading the Bible daily, for the rest of their lives!! If they don't give up tongues, that is their business. But I sure hope they stumble upon sanctification, and learn it is both something God leads us in, and we walk with God in obedience.