predestination vs freewill

Are you teaching that if you are not the "elect" , then you are born without a freewill option to believe in Jesus, be born again, and go to Heaven?

chosen before the foundation of the world.

PS- I am not a Calvinist.

You can't teach that only the "chosen", are the elect,... and not be a hyper-calvinist, ...... as this is teaching that Salvation is God choosing some for HELL., is strictly hyper calvinism.
So, that is indeed hyper calvinism.
That is in fact teaching that people don't have FREE WILL, but that God causes some to burn in the Lake of Fire, and others to believe on Jesus.

That is what you are teaching when you teach that people are "chosen", as that theology denies Free will, and accuses God of burning some in the Lake of Fire, because He wont allow them to BELIEVE.

Chosen and elect mean the SAME thing.

Not in "time of the Gentiles".
See, in the time of the Gentiles, God requires you to BELIEVE in Jesus, to be born again.
Jesus Said you "must be born again".

This is explained as....>"The work of God, is that you BELIEVE on Jesus, whom God sent".

So, ... to Believe is Faith, and Faith, is an act of FREE WILL.

Here is the part that has to be understood. ... Its this. .... God would not be just or right to send you to hell, for not believing..... John 3:36..... If He wont allow you to believe.........If He wont all you the CHOICE. = Freewill

So, the false teaching that you are CHOSEN TO BELIEVE, or CHOSEN NOT TO BELIEVE< is the theology that denies free will.
= Hyper Calvinism
See, God can't require Faith, if He is going to force you to believe......And He can't damn you for not believing.... John 3:36, if He does not allow you to have the free will to believe.

I think Hebrews 4:15 indicates that the purpose of Christ’s temptation was related to His ministry as our High Priest.

The flesh of the fully-God/fully-man, Jesus Christ, was tempted. His fully God nature can not be tempted. The incarnation is indeed a mystery.

What is the doctrine of predestination?

Your reply was like a knife to the heart. So disappointing to hear that you believe that our Lord Jesus Christ could have been tempted. Let's look at this more closely and why this cannot be true of Him.

Heb 4:15 For we have not an high priest which cannot be touched with the feeling of our infirmities; but was in all points tempted like as we are, yet without sin.

This is the verse as translated in most Bibles. But let's look closely at the Greek word translated "tempted".

The word is: πεπειρασμενον - it is a Perfect Passive Participle of the word πειράζω. It can mean: to test, to scrutinize, examine, prove or tempt. It is in the "Perfect" tense, this places the action in the past, with continued results. There is no "Perfect" tense in the English language. The voice is "Passive", meaning the person was being acted upon but does not emphasize the persons actions. Thus, Jesus was being observed or scrutinized. Tested by an outside force or action. It is the translators responsibility to determine the proper English meaning in each occurrence. While the original text was inspired, there is no inspired translation. Translations are subject to human error and driven by the translators knowledge of Biblical Doctrine. Another bad example of translation work is found in:

Act_12:4 And when he had apprehended him, he put him in prison, and delivered him to four quaternions of soldiers to keep him; intending after Easter to bring him forth to the people. (KJV)

Here we have a gross mistranslation, highlighted in red. The greek word here, was always translated "Passover", throughout all of Scripture, except here. Why do you think that was? The American standard Bible translators corrected this: Act 12:4 And when he had taken him, he put him in prison, and delivered him to four quaternions of soldiers to guard him; intending after the Passover to bring him forth to the people.

Now let's make sure we have the right concept of what the English word means. Tempt or tempted:
1) Entice or attempt to entice (someone) to do or acquire something that they find attractive but know to be wrong or not beneficial.
--- This is the objective meaning. (outward influence). To tempt someone, to be a tempter. (This would never apply to Christ).
2) To have an urge or inclination towards desiring something or someone that you know is wrong.
--- This is the subjective meaning. (inward influence). Surely, one who puts their trust on Jesus Christ, does not believe Him capable of such urges or thoughts.

Now why is using the word "tempt" a terrible thing when it comes down to Jesus Christ? Because of the following considerations.

One - Christ was born not as the rest of Humanity but was born Holy in every aspect of His being.

Luke_1:35 And the angel answered and said unto her, The Holy Spirit shall come upon thee, and the power of the Highest shall overshadow thee: therefore also that holy thing which shall be born of thee shall be called the Son of God.

Being born Holy, means that Christ has a perfect nature. A nature that had no association with Adam's sin. A nature that is completely devoid of any ability to do other than that which pleases His Father. This perfect nature, has no aspect in it that can be tempted. Christ was both fully human and fully God. Perfect and Holy in both. If Christ had even the smallest ability, in His own nature, which could be tempted, then He would have been rejected as the sacrificial Lamb. He would have been found with a blemish. He could not have had one single thought in His life, which could have been deemed inappropriate. If He had, He would have been guilty of His own words:

Mat_5:28 But I say unto you, That whosoever looks on a woman to lust after her hath committed adultery with her already in his heart.

Secondly - If an outside influence is said to tempt one - in order for that influence to be a temptation, it presupposes that the one who is being tempted, has a temptable nature. If that one does not have a temptable nature, then the outside influence would be testing the individual not tempting him. This one reality, sets Jesus Christ apart from our human nature. We can be tempted but He cannot. He was always in the WILL of His Father. He always pleased His Father. He was the only one who could fulfill the requirements of the Ten Commandments - the Holy Standard of God. One wrong thought, one wrong action and He would have been disqualified as anyone's Savior. If He would have been born with a temptable nature, like us, it could not have been called "that Holy thing", it would have been impossible to fulfill His role.

Many men, continue to teach that Jesus Christ could have been tempted not seeing the damage it does to His character. Few have come to the light of this very important revelation. In Theology, it is called the Doctrine of Impeccability. Either one holds correctly to the idea that Christ was Impeccable or they have fallen into the snare, that professes Christ was Peccable. Even men like R. C. Sproul believed Christ was Peccable. He bought into this more modern teaching, that argues that Jesus could not have been like us, if He was not temptable. This modern dogma, is just another attempt to make the God-Man, the Creator of all things, more like the fallen creature.

I am going to stop here, even though I could say so much more. Like - how was Jesus tested like us? Why was He put to the test?

The "doctrine of pre-destination" does not exits in a New Testament......because it was created by a heretic.
You were taught it or you read it in a commenatary.
Its the idea of "limited atonement", that insults the Cross of Christ and rejects the Grace of God.
Its a cursed gospel, and the person that teaches it is in trouble...... according to Paul.

Galatians 1:8

Let me teach you how to understand it, so that you can't ever say that someone "never told you the truth".
---------------------

The born again, are elected by faith.
We are predestined to be conformed into the image of Christ, that God foreknew would happen, because He knew before all are born, who would by faith be elected by their faith..

He does not elect...>He forgives.
See, Faith Elects because God does not predestine you to be forgiven, but he.... according to foreknowledge, knows before we are born, who will be saved or not.
Salvation is a forgiveness and conforming gift. It exists as a 2000 yr old LIVING Redemption, that begins and completes its purpose after the Blood Atonement is applied as a Gift = "Grace through Faith"... and this is how it ITSELF predestines you to be completed.
Faith allows you to have access to the blood atonement that sets in motion what is pre-destined to occur to all who are born again, which is the conforming of us into the image of Christ.
Salvation sets into motion for each born again person.... something that is "predestined" to occur once you are born again.....and that is , to be conformed into the Image of Christ. And God foreknew this will happen to all who are born again. .

Where the confusion comes in is when a bad theology teaches that.....: God Knowing a thing before it happens is the same as God causing it to happen., which is to teach that "foreknowing, is = to cause"....which is the devil's lie that is hyper-calvinism.
--------------------

Lets look at one thought with an open mind, and not a theological filter that has replaced any ability to even want to see anything at all..

Q.) What is predestined?

A.) That which is conformed.


The verse says...... something is predestined to BE Conformed. So, to BE, means, to become eventually.
Or, its the END RESULT of the conforming, that is the DESTINY, or what is : pre-determined to happen.

So, this is a spiritual SYSTEM. Its a system in place that starts and ends.
Its a process that has a start and has a end.
This is Salvation.

Now, what is that Simply, according to God's "foreknowledge"?
Well, that sounds complex, and if you try to SEE IT using all the biblical nomenclature, then it just becomes a theological BLUR.
So, lets simplify and get rid of the hyper-calvinist confusion.

Very simply.
God knows it all.
He knows the end from the beginning and He knows who will be born again, and who wont.
And so.........= what is pre-determined to happen, to THE born again person as the END of their Salvation?
They are going to be CONFORMED, in the END, (into the Image of Christ).....and this is pre-determined (pre-destined) for each who are born again, and that is the system that God set up as "The gift of Salvation" and "The Gift of Righteousness".

So, what is pre-determined that God knows will happen (foreknowledge) to every born again person?
They will END UP< "conformed" into the image of Christ".
So REDEMPTION starts with being born again, and it ends up as : "conformed into the image of Christ".
And God does all of this...
Philippians 1:6

And this must happen, because God has predetermined and predestined this to occur to all the born again
They will start as born again and end up as "conformed into the image of Christ".
That is what is "pre-destined".

This is like Spiritual math, that has a perfect solution.
Its an exact spiritual reality that is a process that starts, continues, and has a finalization.

1.) A beginning = Born Again
2. ) A middle = Discipleship and working out your salvation towards becoming on earth....>"the fullness of the Stature of Christ"
3. ) A pre-destined ending.. "Conformed into the Image of Christ"

Some NT words which discuss all this are, born again, elect, predestined, conformed, foreknowledge.
So, dont let all those words be confusion.

"Being Conformed INTO the IMAGE of CHRIST". : This is the "pre-determined" outcome/end result: of becoming born again.
You will END UP conformed, as this is pre-determined" according to the process that God set up as Salvation.

And God knows before you are born, if you are going to be born again as He knows what you are going to do with your Free will.
How can you tell? Its because God knows what you are thinking right now, and what you are to do after you finish reading my Thread.
But He is not causing that....>He just KNOWS IT< because God KNOWS EVERYTHING, at all times., including why you are here, and that you were going to Trust in Jesus.
He didnt cause it,,,,, But God knew you would, just like He knew what you would have to eat today, yet, He didnt cause it.......you chose it.
See that?
That is God knowing all your Choices, but that is not God causing you to Choose.....

And so He also knows that after you are born again, you will be conformed into the image of Jesus, as this is the pre-determine or predestined outcome and spiritual finalization regarding how every born again person ends up.
We start "in Christ" and we end up "conformed into the image of Christ".
See that process?
That is pre-determined, or predestined to OCCUR, to every born again person.

God knows who all these are before they are born = Foreknowledge, because before you are born God knows if you are going to trust Christ,or if you are going to die a Christ rejector.
And that's on you. Because that is what you CHOSE.
And if you chose to believe in Jesus and are born again then you will be conformed into "The image of Christ", as God has predetermined/Pre-Destined this to occur to all born again as the end of their Salvation.
It is in fact, Predestined to happen, because Salvation IS all that, regarding all the born again.

And the Foreknowledge of God knows it, and it should as God created Salvation to work out exactly that way, every single time, regarding all the born again.

If you are born again, then it is pre-determined and predestined that you will eventually be totally conformed, into, "the image of Jesus".
And God knows this before it happens, because HE designed salvation to end up, there.
And.....God knows who it is, per born again person, before they are born, = foreknowledge.

So, all that is pre-destination = AS the eventual conforming INTO the very image of Christ that is what is predetermined to happen to every born again perso

Are you teaching that if you are not the "elect" , then you are born without a freewill option to believe in Jesus, be born again, and go to Heaven?

The "doctrine of pre-destination" does not exits in a New Testament......because it was created by a heretic.
You were taught it or you read it in a commenatary.
Its the idea of "limited atonement", that insults the Cross of Christ and rejects the Grace of God.
Its a cursed gospel, and the person that teaches it is in trouble...... according to Paul.

Galatians 1:8

Let me teach you how to understand it, so that you can't ever say that someone "never told you the truth".
---------------------

The born again, are elected by faith.
We are predestined to be conformed into the image of Christ, that God foreknew would happen, because He knew before all are born, who would by faith be elected by their faith..

He does not elect...>He forgives.
See, Faith Elects because God does not predestine you to be forgiven, but he.... according to foreknowledge, knows before we are born, who will be saved or not.
Salvation is a forgiveness and conforming gift. It exists as a 2000 yr old LIVING Redemption, that begins and completes its purpose after the Blood Atonement is applied as a Gift = "Grace through Faith"... and this is how it ITSELF predestines you to be completed.
Faith allows you to have access to the blood atonement that sets in motion what is pre-destined to occur to all who are born again, which is the conforming of us into the image of Christ.
Salvation sets into motion for each born again person.... something that is "predestined" to occur once you are born again.....and that is , to be conformed into the Image of Christ. And God foreknew this will happen to all who are born again. .

Where the confusion comes in is when a bad theology teaches that.....: God Knowing a thing before it happens is the same as God causing it to happen., which is to teach that "foreknowing, is = to cause"....which is the devil's lie that is hyper-calvinism.
--------------------

Lets look at one thought with an open mind, and not a theological filter that has replaced any ability to even want to see anything at all..

Q.) What is predestined?

A.) That which is conformed.


The verse says...... something is predestined to BE Conformed. So, to BE, means, to become eventually.
Or, its the END RESULT of the conforming, that is the DESTINY, or what is : pre-determined to happen.

So, this is a spiritual SYSTEM. Its a system in place that starts and ends.
Its a process that has a start and has a end.
This is Salvation.

Now, what is that Simply, according to God's "foreknowledge"?
Well, that sounds complex, and if you try to SEE IT using all the biblical nomenclature, then it just becomes a theological BLUR.
So, lets simplify and get rid of the hyper-calvinist confusion.

Very simply.
God knows it all.
He knows the end from the beginning and He knows who will be born again, and who wont.
And so.........= what is pre-determined to happen, to THE born again person as the END of their Salvation?
They are going to be CONFORMED, in the END, (into the Image of Christ).....and this is pre-determined (pre-destined) for each who are born again, and that is the system that God set up as "The gift of Salvation" and "The Gift of Righteousness".

So, what is pre-determined that God knows will happen (foreknowledge) to every born again person?
They will END UP< "conformed" into the image of Christ".
So REDEMPTION starts with being born again, and it ends up as : "conformed into the image of Christ".
And God does all of this...
Philippians 1:6

And this must happen, because God has predetermined and predestined this to occur to all the born again
They will start as born again and end up as "conformed into the image of Christ".
That is what is "pre-destined".

This is like Spiritual math, that has a perfect solution.
Its an exact spiritual reality that is a process that starts, continues, and has a finalization.

1.) A beginning = Born Again
2. ) A middle = Discipleship and working out your salvation towards becoming on earth....>"the fullness of the Stature of Christ"
3. ) A pre-destined ending.. "Conformed into the Image of Christ"

Some NT words which discuss all this are, born again, elect, predestined, conformed, foreknowledge.
So, dont let all those words be confusion.

"Being Conformed INTO the IMAGE of CHRIST". : This is the "pre-determined" outcome/end result: of becoming born again.
You will END UP conformed, as this is pre-determined" according to the process that God set up as Salvation.

And God knows before you are born, if you are going to be born again as He knows what you are going to do with your Free will.
How can you tell? Its because God knows what you are thinking right now, and what you are to do after you finish reading my Thread.
But He is not causing that....>He just KNOWS IT< because God KNOWS EVERYTHING, at all times., including why you are here, and that you were going to Trust in Jesus.
He didnt cause it,,,,, But God knew you would, just like He knew what you would have to eat today, yet, He didnt cause it.......you chose it.
See that?
That is God knowing all your Choices, but that is not God causing you to Choose.....

And so He also knows that after you are born again, you will be conformed into the image of Jesus, as this is the pre-determine or predestined outcome and spiritual finalization regarding how every born again person ends up.
We start "in Christ" and we end up "conformed into the image of Christ".
See that process?
That is pre-determined, or predestined to OCCUR, to every born again person.

God knows who all these are before they are born = Foreknowledge, because before you are born God knows if you are going to trust Christ,or if you are going to die a Christ rejector.
And that's on you. Because that is what you CHOSE.
And if you chose to believe in Jesus and are born again then you will be conformed into "The image of Christ", as God has predetermined/Pre-Destined this to occur to all born again as the end of their Salvation.
It is in fact, Predestined to happen, because Salvation IS all that, regarding all the born again.

And the Foreknowledge of God knows it, and it should as God created Salvation to work out exactly that way, every single time, regarding all the born again.

If you are born again, then it is pre-determined and predestined that you will eventually be totally conformed, into, "the image of Jesus".
And God knows this before it happens, because HE designed salvation to end up, there.
And.....God knows who it is, per born again person, before they are born, = foreknowledge.

So, all that is pre-destination = AS the eventual conforming INTO the very image of Christ that is what is predetermined to happen to every born again perso

If you want to replace tempt with test, I can go along with that. The point I was making was that Jesus “testing” apparently was tied to His Priestly ministry as indicated in the text.

Your points are not in the proper order.

Free will is an illusion. a fabrication of men. Fallen individuals have been given the right to exercise their will but it is not FREE. Many things incumber our will. Most importantly, God has the right to change our will or interfere with it. He did often in the Old Testament accounts. We have personal choices to make, for sure but they are inline with our nature.

Believing does not proceed the new birth. The new birth is a Sovereign act of God, at the appropriate time, applied to the Elect individual. Because of the new birth (God changing the heart of a person and bringing them from spiritual death into spiritual life) They are able to believe. See (John 3:1-10, John 6:44 and all of John chapter 10)

If you are one of the Elect - the Salvation is assured.

Ummmmmm, what?

That is what you are teaching when you teach that people are "chosen", as that theology denies Free will, and accuses God of burning some in the Lake of Fire, because He wont allow them to BELIEVE.

If you want to replace tempt with test, I can go along with that. The point I was making was that Jesus “testing” apparently was tied to His Priestly ministry as indicated in the text.

I got your point and agree. But you need to understand the dangers of continuing in any belief of Peccability. To believe in a Peccable Christ, is possibly to not know the Jesus Christ of Holy Writ. It is just that serious. Frightening when you really think about it. The impugning of our Lord's character.

As an exercise, if you go through every verse of Scripture, where it talks of Christ being "Tempted" and replace the word, with any other meaning: test, scrutinize or prove, you will see they fit nicely and do no harm to what the verse is teaching.

You made my heart sing with your answer. Praise be to God the Father, who reveals all things to His own.

Yeah, okay. Here's Romans 8 where Paul clearly says "called" , .

Ummmmmm, what?

Jesus's "testing", was His humanity. It was exiting as a human, as ONE of Us, and what that means.
Jesus is "touched with the feelings of our humanity/infirmity".........He understands what it means to live here in the world as a human dealing with feelings and emotions and hardships.
See, Jesus as the 2nd Adam, had the entire responsibility of redeeming the world of sin, and to do that He had to accomplish two things.

1. Jesus had to live and die, sinless, of Himself.......so that He was able to supply this.....God made Him to "became sin".... 2nd Corinthians 5:21.
And because Jesus became our sin, the judgement due us for our sin, fell on Him. This redeemed us from our sin and delivered us from the eternal consequences of our sin. = if we are born again.

This is why Romans 4:8 says that God does not charge sin to the born again......Its because it has all been charged to Christ on the Cross, already.

2. Jesus has to fulfill the LAW so that we are freed from "the curse of the Law".. "Jesus has redeemed us from the Curse of the Law".