predestination vs freewill

Roger, welcome to this Great discussion of the apostles. You have asked a
reasonable question, and included Pertinent Scriptures, and, I Do Agree:

Paul is an apostle, chosen and sent By God! No problem. The problem
is "numbering" him With the TWELVE, where "he is Neither qualified, Nor
belongs" (Acts 1:21 KJB!) ie: Does God have a Program, Which includes 13
{or more} "apostles"? If so, I am UNable to find such a thing
Conversely, I have found, According To The Word Of Truth, Rightly Divided:

(1) Representative apostles + number! For God’s LAW/PROPHETIC Program,
“prophesied since the world began!” (Luke_1:68-70; Acts_3:21!):

God’s Complete Number TWELVE represents:

TWELVE baptismS, TWELVE apostles who will rule in the Prophesied kingdom
With CHRIST!, on TWELVE thrones, Over the TWELVE tribes of Israel!
(Genesis_49:28; Isaiah_9:7, 32:1; Matthew_19:28; Luke_22:30; James_1:1!)

►► Peter [+11], TWELVE {WITH Mathias}, at Pentecost, preached:

gospel of the kingdom!:

(A) Salvation = "he that believeth AND is baptized Shall Be SAVED!"
(Mark_16:16 cp Luke_7:29-30; Acts_2:38; James_2:17-18!) ◄◄

B) their Commission, IF you wish...

Rightly Divided (2 Timothy 2:15 KJB!) From “Things That DIFFER!”:

(2) Representative apostle + number in God’s:

►►► Revelation Of The MYSTERY

God’s Heavenly Hidden Purpose Before “the foundation
of the world...Kept Secret since the world began”
(Romans_16:25; Ephesians_1:4-11, 3:5-9!)

"Howbeit for this cause I obtained Mercy, That In me First JESUS CHRIST
Might Shew Forth ALL Longsuffering, For a Pattern to them which should
hereafter believe on HIM to life everlasting!” (1_Timothy_1:16!) ◄◄◄

God's First number, ONE, Represents:

"...One body, and ONE Spirit, even as ye are called in One hope of
your calling; ONE Lord, One faith, ONE Baptism, ONE God and Father..."
(Ephesians_4:4-6!), "...ONE Mediator..." (1_Timothy_2:5!),
"...ONE New Man..." (Ephesians_2:15!), And:

Chosen By God:
ONE individual apostle, Paul, Both Roman and Hebrew
(Acts_9:6, 15, 13:2, 20:24, 22:1-15, 21, 25-28, 26:17-18; Philippians_3:5;
Romans_1:1, 11:13, 15:16-18; Galatians_1:15, 2:7-8; Ephesians_3:1;
1_Timothy_1:11, 2:7; 2_Timothy_1:11!), who represents:

Reconciliation, By GRACE (2_Corinthians_5:17-6:2!), of Both Jew And
Gentile, as Individuals, Into “ONE New Man!” (Ephesians_2:15-16!)

SPIRITUALLY Baptized ( And Spiritually United as
members of one another! ), BY: ONE Baptism!
(1_Corinthians_12:13 cp Ephesians_4:5, 5:30!), Into:

ONE Body, In HEAVEN!...

... [ By The DEADLY, But Amazingly Wonderful CROSS! ] Of CHRIST,
The Risen And Glorified SAVIOUR, The Only HEAD Of HIS Church!!
(1_Timothy_3:16; Ephesians_1:22, 5:23; Colossians_1:18!)
Praise HIS Precious NAME! Amen?

The Gospel Of The GRACE Of God!:
(A)
“For I [ Paul! ] delivered unto you first of all That Which I also received,
How That CHRIST Died For our sins According To The Scriptures;
And That HE Was Buried, And That HE Rose Again the third day
According To The Scriptures!” (1_Corinthians_15:3-4!)
+
"For By GRACE are ye SAVED Through faith; and that not of yourselves:
It Is The Gift of God: Not of works, lest any man should boast!"
( Ephesians_2:8-9! cp Most of Romans through Philemon! # )

{ GRACE {UNmerited Favor!} Found 85 Times! }

(B) our Commission, IF you wish...
------------------------
Again, Precious friend, rogerg, thanks for participating = makes for
Great Discussion! Amen?

Please Be Richly Encouraged, Enlightened, Exhorted, and Edified!
God's Simple Will!

You've provided a lot of information here so I'll need to dig through it to familiarize myself with the details of the subject - which up to now, I haven't done. Thank you.

You will never be conformed to the image of His son unless you are saved. If you think that God only calls those that are saved you have warped view of God. God loves the world Joh 3:16. Christ Jesus draws all to Himself Joh 12.32. If God only called your select few then all those that were not called would have a just case against God because they never had the chance to be saved. Your logic is way off.

How do I change the order of the text? What did God predestine us to? To be conformed to the image of His son. What is Gods calling to man? Creation and the gospel. Get your head out of the books you read and trust the scriptures.

Still don't want to answer the question do you. FYI if God had indeed selected just a few to be saved then He had no reason to call anyone else as for those selected their future was set but that is not what the bible teaches is it. God loves the world and wants all to come to a saving faith. Christ Jesus died for all not just some.
God is LOVE 1Jn 4:8 but a God of love only makes sense if he has given us the ability to freely choose or reject him. For anyone to deny that man has a free will is to deny reality. If you say man only had a free will to sin then you have to ask where is Gods' love in that. We are told to love our enemies and to do good for them. Luk_6:27 Should we expect any less from God who is the standard we go by. So I have to ask what kind of God is he who gives man enough freedom to damn him but not enough to save him?
As I said before man has the gospel and creation so we are without excuse. Rom_1:20 Man is not condemn because we were not chosen by God we are condemned because we did not chose God.

So out of curiosity, are you saying that everyone will be saved?

Obviously, you don’t know the way Paul is using “called” in Romans 8:29-30. Read the verses! Who God calls, He justifies.

Does God justify everyone?

The only way you can define “called” in Romans 8:29-30 as a universal call, is if you are a universalist and think God justifies everyone.

Simple exegesis. Who God calls, He justifies. Not used in the universal sense here. There is a universal calling, the Gospel but Paul’s not referring to everyone being callled here. Because the ones called here are justified.

See also Romans 9:24, Colossians 1:23-24, Colossians 1:26, ( which shows that not all are called in this sense), etc

You are coming to the scriptures and instead of reading them, you are reading into them.

Sounds like it.

Questions. Is Romans 9:23-24 talking about everybody? How about 1 Corinthians 1:24?

See, I am in the books. The books of the Bible. I almost never consult commentaries. 99 percent of the time I don’t or I only consult them after I’ve already exegeted the text.

The only thing I look up extra biblically is pretty much historical background.

Don't see how that changes a thing. Judas was not predestined to reign with Christ. If he was, he would have been a true believer in Christ and never betrayed Him. He was predestined to betray Christ, as already shown. He was the son of perdition.

The "you who have followed me" is not an exclusive statement to only the ones hearing Christ at the time but to all that followed Christ and persevered to the end.

Judas was absent, when Christ prayed His High Priestly prayer to the Father. He had gone to betray him and Jesus proclaimed him lost. In these words are the facts that Judas was not a true believer nor was he predestined to reign.

John 17:12 While I was with them, I kept them in thy name which thou hast given me: and I guarded them, and not one of them perished, but the son of perdition; that the scripture might be fulfilled.

As to your second point, Predestination is a Sovereign act of God. It can mean that one is predestined for a "good" thing or a "bad" thing. If one is chosen in Christ (Eph. 1:4), then he/she is predestined to a good thing. To be predestined in this way, presupposes that, the one predestined is part of the "Elect". The Elect are a particular chosen group of people, both Jew and Gentile. God's free grace being bestowed before the foundation of the world. Once so chosen nothing can stop this group from obtaining Salvation because nothing is greater than God.

Look at this point in the High Priestly prayer:

John 17:2 even as thou gave him authority over all flesh, that to all whom thou hast given him, he should give eternal life.
John 17:6 I manifested thy name unto the men whom thou gave me out of the world: thine they were, and thou gave them to me; and they have kept thy word.
John 17:9 I pray for them: I pray not for the world, but for those whom thou hast given me; for they are thine:
John 17:11 And I am no more in the world, and these are in the world, and I come to thee. Holy Father, keep them in thy name which thou hast given me, that they may be one, even as we are.
John 17:17 Sanctify them in the truth: thy word is truth.
John 17:20 Neither for these only do I pray, but for them also that believe on me through their word;
John 17:24 Father, I desire that they also whom thou hast given me be with me where I am, that they may behold my glory, which thou hast given me: for thou loved me before the foundation of the world.

This is the language of Election - the same in John 6 and John 10.

God's chosen - the Elect - are the same as the - Sheep - and the same as the ones who believe on Christ.

Mat_24:22 And except those days had been shortened, no flesh would have been saved: but for the elect's sake those days shall be shortened.
Mat_24:24 For there shall arise false Christs, and false prophets, and shall show great signs and wonders; so as to lead astray, if it were possible, even the elect.
Mat_24:31 And he shall send forth his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.

Here we see that the Elect are God's chosen people - out of the Jews - and out of the whole world. In Matthew 24:24 and 22 - we see that things are so bad, during the Great Tribulation, that God cuts things short because of the Elect and if it were possible, which it is not, even the Elect would be fooled by the Anti-Christ.

In Paul's writings, we see everything is for the Elect's sake.

Col_3:12 Put on therefore, as God's elect, holy and beloved, a heart of compassion, kindness, lowliness, meekness, longsuffering;
2Ti_2:10 Therefore I endure all things for the elect's sake, that they also may obtain the salvation which is in Christ Jesus with eternal glory.

Paul endured hardships uncountable, to ensure the Salvation of the Elect, that were still in their unregenerate state and still possessed their old nature. A Pastor of long ago, once said: "We are sheep hunters.". Finding and bringing in the sheep, is the true mission of Evangelism.

Heb_13:20 Now the God of peace, who brought again from the dead the great shepherd of the sheep with the blood of an eternal covenant, even our Lord Jesus,
1Pe_2:25 For ye were going astray like sheep; but are now returned unto the Shepherd and Bishop of your souls.

Because Paul has predestination before called and justified in Romans 8:29-30 and you have predestination after called and justified.

I think I’ll stick with Paul.

And I dont know what question you think I didn’t answer…but the rest of your post is a collection of red herrings. I’ll give you the benefit of the doubt and assume they are unintentional red herrings.

Of course I agree with Jesus’ words.

…or he doesn’t understand the way Paul is using the word “called” in the text.

Nope, never claimed that which you have said. Being a Koine Greek student, helps open up the horizons of Scripture but rarely will change the overall meaning of a verse.

But all Bible translations have errors. The KJV put in Easter, when clearly the Greek word is for Passover. A translator does not have the right to alter a word just because their Theology might suggest it.

Over the years of study, several errors have come to light but they a rare indeed. What the Koine Greek gives the reader is clarification - not a whole new meaning.

Since the English language, really does not have "Gender", the gender of the Greek helps one see which word is modifying which word. This aids in interpretation. The English also does not have the "Perfect" tense. The Perfect tense, in the koine Greek is highly important. In almost all Bible translations, you can not tell the "perfect" tense verbs and adjectives (being used as a verb), from the "past" tense verbs. This failure, to distinguish them apart, has led many to the wrong interpretations.

Those, that I have found, who object to the use of Koine Greek in interpretive discussions, usually have very weak Theological basis for their view. No real, mature believer in Christ, would object to the use of the original language.

By the way, I would suggest the "American Standard Bible" as one of the best translations out there. I know, I just really upset the KJV worshipers.

Excellent post!

Here is a question for you:

How could Paul see his sin when he was still a Pharisee and his nature was darkness continually.? Unsaved - unregenerate men - do not see their sin's. They wink at there own and wink at other's sins. For Paul to see his own sin's, as he was describing them in Rom. 7, meant he was able to see them in the mirror of God. What Paul is describing in Rom. 7 - is the old sin nature, which still resides in every believer.

While believer's may have been freed from the slavery of sin - we still sin. The more mature the believer, the more clearly that believer sees his own sin's. We will never stop committing sin, until we are translated into out eternal bodies. The body of "flesh and bone". So everyday, we must ask for forgiveness.

1Jn 1:6-9 If we say that we have fellowship with him and walk in the darkness, we lie, and do not the truth: but if we walk in the light, as he is in the light, we have fellowship one with another, and the blood of Jesus his Son is cleansing us from all sin. If we say that we have not sinned, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us. If we confess our sins, he is faithful and righteous to forgive us our sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.

It is one of the verses used by the supralapsarianist to prove God chose (made) some unto Salvation and at the same time made the rest for condemnation.

Yep --- whether you call it Chosen ones, Election, Predestination or all of the ones listed here --- Chosen = Election = Names in Lamb's Book of Life = Whom the Father gave = Whom Christ received = Hearers of the Gospel = The ones who believe = The ones whom are saved = Sheep = Whom Christ died for.

OK but what is Proverbs 16:4 really about? Are 'they' right?

It literally says God made the wicked for the day of destruction, doesnt it?

Are we supposed to ignore this?

I don't ignore any of God's Word. Nor should anyone.

however, I take more of the Infralapsarian view. No passage of Scripture should be interpreted to mean: That God created man just to damn him. Rather, my take on Proverbs 16:4 is: That in God passing by the rest of mankind, after choosing out His own, in the Elect - that the rest of mankind would be left in their sins, so as such, they being wicked, would be left for a day of wrath.

This finite difference, between the two views, is to either understand that God Created the non-elect for wrath or that the fall placed all, outside of the Covenant of Redemption, to remain in their fallen condition. The later seems more reasonable to me. For we know that Scripture teaches, that all have fallen short and all are dead in trespasses and sin. Therefore, since all are Guilty, only the ones whom God determined to show mercy and compassion to, will be given a new nature and be saved. The rest will have to answer for their guilt.

This makes God's choice, His Sovereign right and decree - to show mercy on whom He pleases. It does no additional harm to those who are left in darkness.

But the primary push, of this section of Proverbs, is to illustrate that all things are done for God's Glory. Yes, even the wrath that is to come.

Romans 9:22-24 kind of explain the Proverbs passage. But I agree. God does not create people to send them to hell. He gives them over to their own sin. Man does not desire the True God by nature.

Quite so but then we submit to HIS will, if we go back to doing our own will we will soon find ourselves being led further and further back into bondage ... THAT is what is wrong with the church.

Nobody gets saved until they surrender themselves [their will] to Christ, that is what it means to declare Him our Lord. Having been set free we must stay free.

To go back to freewillery is actually to backslide. The church by and large is backslidden though of course saved.

We find our greatest freedom when we find God's will for our lives. God's good and perfect will.