The Second Coming of Christ and the First Resurrection.

No, it isn't.

It should be clear that the Great Trib is the day of the LORD;

And that the day of the LORD is a day of wrath.

Zep 1:14, The great day of the LORD is near, it is near, and hasteth greatly, even the voice of the day of the LORD: the mighty man shall cry there bitterly.
Zep 1:15, That day is a day of wrath, a day of trouble and distress, a day of wasteness and desolation, a day of darkness and gloominess, a day of clouds and thick darkness,

Luk 21:23, But woe unto them that are with child, and to them that give suck, in those days! for there shall be great distress in the land, and wrath upon this people.

Tell me whether you think the following things are God's wrath or something else.

Rev 8:7, The first angel sounded, and there followed hail and fire mingled with blood, and they were cast upon the earth: and the third part of trees was burnt up, and all green grass was burnt up.
Rev 8:8, And the second angel sounded, and as it were a great mountain burning with fire was cast into the sea: and the third part of the sea became blood;
Rev 8:9, And the third part of the creatures which were in the sea, and had life, died; and the third part of the ships were destroyed.
Rev 8:10, And the third angel sounded, and there fell a great star from heaven, burning as it were a lamp, and it fell upon the third part of the rivers, and upon the fountains of waters;
Rev 8:11, And the name of the star is called Wormwood: and the third part of the waters became wormwood; and many men died of the waters, because they were made bitter.
Rev 8:12, And the fourth angel sounded, and the third part of the sun was smitten, and the third part of the moon, and the third part of the stars; so as the third part of them was darkened, and the day shone not for a third part of it, and the night likewise.
Rev 8:13, And I beheld, and heard an angel flying through the midst of heaven, saying with a loud voice, Woe, woe, woe, to the inhabiters of the earth by reason of the other voices of the trumpet of the three angels, which are yet to sound!
Rev 9:1, And the fifth angel sounded, and I saw a star fall from heaven unto the earth: and to him was given the key of the bottomless pit.
Rev 9:2, And he opened the bottomless pit; and there arose a smoke out of the pit, as the smoke of a great furnace; and the sun and the air were darkened by reason of the smoke of the pit.
Rev 9:3, And there came out of the smoke locusts upon the earth: and unto them was given power, as the scorpions of the earth have power.
Rev 9:4, And it was commanded them that they should not hurt the grass of the earth, neither any green thing, neither any tree; but only those men which have not the seal of God in their foreheads.
Rev 9:5, And to them it was given that they should not kill them, but that they should be tormented five months: and their torment was as the torment of a scorpion, when he striketh a man.
Rev 9:6, And in those days shall men seek death, and shall not find it; and shall desire to die, and death shall flee from them.
Rev 9:7, And the shapes of the locusts were like unto horses prepared unto battle; and on their heads were as it were crowns like gold, and their faces were as the faces of men.
Rev 9:8, And they had hair as the hair of women, and their teeth were as the teeth of lions.
Rev 9:9, And they had breastplates, as it were breastplates of iron; and the sound of their wings was as the sound of chariots of many horses running to battle.
Rev 9:10, And they had tails like unto scorpions, and there were stings in their tails: and their power was to hurt men five months.
Rev 9:11, And they had a king over them, which is the angel of the bottomless pit, whose name in the Hebrew tongue is Abaddon, but in the Greek tongue hath his name Apollyon.
Rev 9:12, One woe is past; and, behold, there come two woes more hereafter.
Rev 9:13, And the sixth angel sounded, and I heard a voice from the four horns of the golden altar which is before God,
Rev 9:14, Saying to the sixth angel which had the trumpet, Loose the four angels which are bound in the great river Euphrates.
Rev 9:15, And the four angels were loosed, which were prepared for an hour, and a day, and a month, and a year, for to slay the third part of men.
Rev 9:16, And the number of the army of the horsemen were two hundred thousand thousand: and I heard the number of them.
Rev 9:17, And thus I saw the horses in the vision, and them that sat on them, having breastplates of fire, and of jacinth, and brimstone: and the heads of the horses were as the heads of lions; and out of their mouths issued fire and smoke and brimstone.
Rev 9:18, By these three was the third part of men killed, by the fire, and by the smoke, and by the brimstone, which issued out of their mouths.
Rev 9:19, For their power is in their mouth, and in their tails: for their tails were like unto serpents, and had heads, and with them they do hurt.
Rev 9:20, And the rest of the men which were not killed by these plagues yet repented not of the works of their hands, that they should not worship devils, and idols of gold, and silver, and brass, and stone, and of wood: which neither can see, nor hear, nor walk:
Rev 9:21, Neither repented they of their murders, nor of their sorceries, nor of their fornication, nor of their thefts.

Are the judgments mentioned above instituted by satan or God?

Are the judgments mentioned above instituted by satan or God?

The Second Coming of Christ is a Day of wrath upon the children of wrath just as God said - not upon the His Elect/the Saints.

Revelation 6:9-11
And when the Lamb opened the fifth seal, I saw under the altar the souls of those who had been slain for the word of God and for the testimony they had upheld. And they cried out in a loud voice, “How long, O Lord, holy and true, until You avenge our blood and judge those who dwell upon the earth?”
Then each of them was given a white robe and told to rest a little while longer, until the full number of their fellow servants, their brothers, were killed, just as they had been killed.

Revelation 20:4-6
And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years. But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished.
This is the first resurrection.
Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years.

1 Thessalonians 4: 13-18 But I do not want you to be ignorant, brethren, concerning those who have fallen asleep, lest you sorrow as others who have no hope. For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again,
even so God will bring with Him those who sleep in Jesus. (Revelation 19) see White Robes/Fine Linen/Bright
For this we say to you by the word of the Lord, that we who are alive and remain until the coming of the Lord will by no means precede those who are asleep.
For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of an archangel, and with the trumpet of God.
And the dead in Christ will rise first.
Then we who are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And thus we shall always be with the Lord. Therefore comfort one another with these words.

1 John 2:18 Little children, it is the last time: and as ye have heard that Antichrist shall come, even now are there many antichrists; whereby we know that it is the last time.

2 Thessalonians 2:1-3 Now we beseech you, brethren, by the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, and by our gathering together unto him, That ye be not soon shaken in mind, or be troubled, neither by spirit, nor by word, nor by letter as from us, as that the day of Christ is at hand. Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;

"Falling away come first" and "Man of Sin" = foretold by Daniel 7, Matt 24, the Apostle Paul and the Apostle John

1 John 2:18-19 Little children, it is the last time: and as ye have heard that antichrist shall come, even now are there many antichrists; whereby we know that it is the last time.
FALLING AWAY FIRST = v19 They went out from us, but they were not of us; for if they had been of us, they would no doubt have continued with us: but they went out, that they might be made manifest that they were not all of us.

Dear Brother, If you are looking for something God did not say , then you are not seeking His Word, His Truth.
Our Lord Jesus Christ and the Apostles all spoke and focused on the RESURRECTION - not the rapture.

The FIRST RESURRECTION comes before the rapture - this is why the rapture is NEVER mentioned in Revelation.
Anyone who says pre-trib rapture occurs before the Resurrection is a liar.

The Second Coming of Christ and the First Resurrection.

The Second Coming of Christ is a Day of wrath upon the children of wrath just as God said - not upon the His Elect/the Saints.

Revelation 6:9-11
And when the Lamb opened the fifth seal, I saw under the altar the souls of those who had been slain for the word of God and for the testimony they had upheld. And they cried out in a loud voice, “How long, O Lord, holy and true, until You avenge our blood and judge those who dwell upon the earth?”
Then each of them was given a white robe and told to rest a little while longer, until the full number of their fellow servants, their brothers, were killed, just as they had been killed.

Revelation 20:4-6
And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years. But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished.
This is the first resurrection.
Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years.

1 Thessalonians 4: 13-18 But I do not want you to be ignorant, brethren, concerning those who have fallen asleep, lest you sorrow as others who have no hope. For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again,
even so God will bring with Him those who sleep in Jesus. (Revelation 19) see White Robes/Fine Linen/Bright
For this we say to you by the word of the Lord, that we who are alive and remain until the coming of the Lord will by no means precede those who are asleep.
For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of an archangel, and with the trumpet of God.
And the dead in Christ will rise first.
Then we who are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And thus we shall always be with the Lord. Therefore comfort one another with these words.

1 John 2:18 Little children, it is the last time: and as ye have heard that Antichrist shall come, even now are there many antichrists; whereby we know that it is the last time.

2 Thessalonians 2:1-3 Now we beseech you, brethren, by the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, and by our gathering together unto him, That ye be not soon shaken in mind, or be troubled, neither by spirit, nor by word, nor by letter as from us, as that the day of Christ is at hand. Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;

"Falling away come first" and "Man of Sin" = foretold by Daniel 7, Matt 24, the Apostle Paul and the Apostle John

1 John 2:18-19 Little children, it is the last time: and as ye have heard that antichrist shall come, even now are there many antichrists; whereby we know that it is the last time.
FALLING AWAY FIRST = v19 They went out from us, but they were not of us; for if they had been of us, they would no doubt have continued with us: but they went out, that they might be made manifest that they were not all of us.

Dear Brother, If you are looking for something God did not say , then you are not seeking His Word, His Truth.
Our Lord Jesus Christ and the Apostles all spoke and focused on the RESURRECTION - not the rapture.

The FIRST RESURRECTION comes before the rapture - this is why the rapture is NEVER mentioned in Revelation.
Anyone who says it does is a liar.

In other words, anyone who sees it different than me, is a liar.

In other words, anyone who sees it different than me, is a liar.

But you have failed to connect the dots properly. Can you imagine this bizarre scenario where Christ is raining down fire from Heaven on His enemies AT THE SAME TIME as the saints are being resurrected and taken to Heaven? The absurdity of this should have been evident to you.

Thanks for your post. I first want to say regarding this issue of "the rapture" or if you will the "second coming" as to its timing, before the tribulation or after the tribulation should not divide us as Christians. My point is that there will be disagreements but we all should be grateful that Jesus Christ is coming for His Church. In fact, 1 Corinthians 11:19, "For they must be factions among you, (that is differences of opinion) in order that those who are approved may have become evident among us."

I kind of hope your right because nobody in their right mind wants to meet the antichrist. Now, in my post I ask the question based on 2 Thessalonians 1:5-8, specifically vs 7, "and to give "relief/rest" to you who are afflicted and to us as well WHEN the Lord Jesus shall be revealed from heaven with His mighty angels in flaming fire, " So, in your view, "when do we get rest? Is it by way of the rapture or the second coming?

Also at Hebrews 9:27-28, "And inasmuch as it is appointed for men to die once and after this comes judgment, vs28, so Christ also, having been offered once to bear the sins of many SHALL APPEAR A SECOND TIME FOR SALVATION/DELIVERANCE without reference to sin, to those who eagerly await Him." According to this verse there is no room for a "rapture."

You missed th epoint completely - Christ returns for His Bride at His Second Coming - you pre-trib error preaches a false gospel that leaves behind His Bride for a pre-trib group of ???

how this affects anyone other than "us Christians" [now] who will "go" in the trib regardless of our views on this subject (of course all believers [who've come to faith in Christ before the rapture] WILL "GO" in the rapture--but that's not the sole concerning factor, [...]

Hey bluto, my apologies for taking so long to get back to this post.



I don't disagree.

In fact, I've stated a number of times that "knowing the right timing of the rapture, or not knowing it correctly" does not affect one's salvation, nor affect whether or not a believer will actually "go" (participate) in the rapture.

But one of my main beefs with those who viciously attack it as being "a LIE from the pit of hell" and so forth--even while they say the same thing I said above, basically that if "pre-trib" turns out to be TRUE [opposite to their own beliefs] then it's a "WIN / WIN" for all...
...okay, but that's not what I'm concerned so much about (I pretty much agree with that), MY concern is those unbelievers/unsaved persons who HEAR these viciously disparaging remarks about it (and who will find themselves IN the trib [should the rapture occur some time this century / in their lifetime ] because they were not saved beforehand, b/c they hadn't come to faith in Christ prior to the rapture)--it is THOSE folks I am concerned about because what they HEARD *now* (the vitriol re: "pre-trib rapture") will--or very likely could--factor into their "BELIEVING THE LIE" that comes into play IN / DURING / WITHIN the Trib years (FOLLOWING "our Rapture"), 2Th2:10-12.

IOW, it's not the "believers" today that I'm concerned about "if they get the timing wrong"... it's who our words AFFECT (even after we're outta here), that I believe we should be concerned about (in what we say), if that makes sense.

It seems NO ONE seems to express any concern for "how their words NOW, will affect those [presently unsaved persons] who will find themselves in the Trib THEN" which IS WHEN the 2Th2:[9b]10-12 thing WILL TAKE PLACE (regarding "THE LIE / THE FALSE / THE PSEUDEI" and the DECEPTION that the "man of sin" will also be connected with).

We ARE responsible for WHAT WE SAY NOW that affects THEM THEN, see. I find that to be of grave importance; whereas I find that some who express extreme attacks "against 'pre-trib'" do not acknowledge how this affects anyone other than "us Christians" [now] who will "go" in the trib regardless of our views on this subject (of course all believers [who've come to faith in Christ before the rapture] WILL "GO" in the rapture--but that's not the sole concerning factor, as I've tried to explain above... as I see it).



Here's a few links where I provided some points on that passage... but please bear in mind another point (which may not be present in these links / posts), how I've stated in past posts: in every place (in Scripture) where the phrases "the day of the Lord" and "IN THAT DAY" are used IN CLOSE PROXIMITY / in the SAME CONTEXTS, they are referring to the SAME TIME PERIOD.

And we find this also in Paul's 2Th chpts 1 & 2 (chpt 1 has the phrase "IN THAT DAY"; chpt 2 has the phrase "THE DAY OF THE LORD"--they BOTH refer to the SAME [future] TIME PERIOD... not merely "a singular 24-hr day").
With that in mind, here are the LINKS on 2Th1:7-8 -


Re: 2Th1:7-8 - "rest with us IN THE REVELATION OF..." -

Post #164 (& #165) - https://christianchat.com/threads/h...ular-in-the-modern-church.201091/post-4642584

Post #962 - https://christianchat.com/threads/h...ular-in-the-modern-church.201091/post-4655311

Post #256 - https://christianchat.com/threads/h...ular-in-the-modern-church.201091/post-4643531




Here is a link to the more brief post about "Heb9:28"... bear in mind (which I don't think is in this particular post / link) that the word "G3708" has a total of 682 or 684[?] occurrences... in this study, I focus in on the ones used regarding Jesus (same as in this Heb9:28 "appear" verse)... and where I've stated that one would have to come up with a different verse or passage to persuade me to their viewpoint [away from "pre-trib"], because this verse simply is not persuasive toward that direction, as I see it:

Re: Heb9:28 -

Post #730 - https://christianchat.com/threads/h...ular-in-the-modern-church.201091/post-4653352


____________


Hope that helps you see my perspective. And again, my apologies for being so long to get back to these. = )

Have a great day, bluto!




P.S. I'm happy to try to clarify anything... just ask!

I looked at this as a one time event and ask myself "where did this rapture business come from?" Now, I read what you posted or referenced and I understand your point of view. I might have missed it but did you happen to notice 2 Thessalonians 1:9-10? "And these will pay the penalty of eternal destruction, away from the presence of the Lord and from the glory of His power.

Verse 10, "WHEN" He comes to be glorified in His saints on that day, and to be marveled at among all who have believed --for our testimony to you was believed." Please notice the words in this verse of, "ALL who have believed." Who's the "ALL?" Would it not be His saints on that day? Well, those are some of my reasons and I stand by them.

Your post was reported as you just added to my words what i did not say and called me a liar with no evidence of such.
For you to do so exposes what is in your heart.
God Himself says the Resurrection occurs BEFORE the rapture and since you call me a liar for agreeing with His Word you also are calling the Apostle Paul a liar and the Apostle John and the words of our Lord in Revelation.

Now i have to go and perform some dangerous work - i have prayed for You and me and asked our Lord for His Blessing on us both.

[ If you were talking to me...]

First off, you've not proven your point to me ^ (in bold / underlined ^ ).


Second, you're seemingly not grasping that "the GuestS [PLURAL]" and the "10 or 5 VirginS [PLURAL]" (etc--whom He is NOT "MARRYING") are NOT the "Bride / Wife [singular]" (of whom "the MARRIAGE" DOES pertain).

Just like John the Baptist, as "FRIEND of the Bridegroom" ALSO is not "the Bride / Wife"... per John 3:29 -

"29 He that hath the bride is the bridegroom: but the friend of the bridegroom [referring to John the Baptist himself], which standeth and heareth him, rejoiceth greatly because of the bridegroom's voice: this my joy therefore is fulfilled."


You are simply blurring together a bunch of distinct things, making a blurry mess of the whole picture, just so you can hold firmly to your stance (which you have not persuaded me, via scripture, toward your viewpoint of it).

I remain unconvinced of your viewpoint, due to these points and many others...




[yes, John the Baptist is a "saved" person... but this does not make him be (part of) "the Bride / Wife," see. "FRIEND OF the Bridegroom" ≠ "the BRIDE / WIFE" see]

I believe the Day of the Lord is at the 7th Trump when Jesus returns (the Second Coming). There will be two tribulations, as I understand it.

Mark 13:19 For in those days shall be affliction, such as was not from the beginning of the creation which God created unto this time, neither shall be.

The word affliction = tribulation.

Strong's # 2347
thlipsis, from 2346; pressure, ( Literally or figuratively); KJV—afflicted, anguish, burdened, persecution, tribulation, trouble.

This will be a tribulation like there never was since the beginning of time.

Mark 13:20 And except that the Lord had shortened those days, no flesh should be saved; but for the elect`s sake, whom He hath chosen, He hath shortened the days.

Mark 13:21 And then if any man shall say to you, Lo, here is Christ; or, lo, He is there; believe him not;

Mark 13:22 For false Christs and false prophets shall rise, and shall shew signs and wonders, to seduce, if it were possible, even the elect.

Mark 13:23 But take ye heed; behold, I have foretold you all things.

Now we come to the second tribulation. Notice it says after that tribulation.

Mark 13:24 But in those days, after that tribulation, the sun shall be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light,

Mark 13:25 and the stars of heaven shall fall, and the powers that are in heaven shall be shaken.

This is the second tribulation at the 7th trump at the true Christ's return. This is God's tribulation (God’s wrath).

Mark 13:26 And then shall they see the son of man coming in the clouds with great power and glory.

Mark 13:27 And then shall He send His angels, and shall gather together His elect from the four winds, from the uttermost part of the earth to the uttermost part of heaven.

The four winds have to do with the moment of the end. That's the second tribulation, God's tribulation, when the battle of Armageddon and Hamon-gog take place. God fights those battles for us.