2 Thessalonians 2:3 "the departure" IS intentionally describing the RAPTURE.

Rip those pages out of your Bible then

Well then go find the crown(s) in Rev ch 2-ch 3

What "pages" are you referring to??

Do you meant the FACT I stated about how NOWHERE IN SCRIPTURE does it NAME "John" as the writer of the "Gospel of John" (which men have LABELED that) or the "Epistles of John" (which men have LABELED those)... Is that what you mean??

Yes, according to you they are mislabeled and cannot be trusted - rip them out and write your thesis and put that in place of it.

Are you saying those titles which MEN supplied are to be EQUATED WITH SCRIPTURE?? (they are SCRIPTURES THEMSELVES??)

You seem to be alluding to as much... (especially in one of your previous posts...)





SCRIPTURE ITSELF NOWHERE NAMES the writer (of these four) as being "JOHN" (it seems you have no problem INJECTING that into the text of Scripture itself, despite Scripture itself NOWHERE STATING such... Why is that?)

Remind them of these things, charging them before the Lord not to strive about words to no profit, to the ruin of the hearers.

SCRIPTURE ITSELF NOWHERE NAMES the writer (of these four) as being "JOHN" (it seems you have no problem INJECTING that into the text of Scripture itself, despite Scripture itself NOWHERE STATING such...

How is what I put "striving about words"? when you have hinted toward the idea that "WRITTEN BY JOHN" is stated IN THE TEXT OF SCRIPTURE itself (nowhere in Scripture stated to be the case[!]), when ALL I AM SAYING is:



... particularly since you are always on about others not ADDING TO SCRIPTURE (whom you SUPPOSE to be DOING such a thing... but have not proved it...)




[yes, your number is on record... clear as a bell for all to see...]

^ Scripture doesn't state specifically who wrote Hebrews.
And I don't go around stating "Hebrews was written by [so-and-so]" definitively, or "what [so-and-so person's name] wrote in Hebrews," as though it states who wrote it, in Scripture itself (it doesn't state who wrote it).





[p.s. this is not to say I'm against referencing the TITLES they've been given... but just to say, like I said earlier, this is not to say that SCRIPTURE ITSELF states anywhere that this is who write these... and to explain WHY I pulled my answer from REV5:9 ]

OK, so if we do not know who wrote Hebrews, and it is now part of the Word of God / Scripture, then what is your problem with the Gospel of John or the Letters of John 1,2,3

You had ASKED specifically for something Apostle John said.

So the ANSWER I provided (to your QUESTION) I gave FROM WHAT JOHN WROTE (not from an epistle Scripture itself does not STATE "John wrote"). I was EXPLAINING my REASON for giving my ANSWER from Revelation (instead).

Make sense??







[I don't have any problem with the 3 epistles which men label as "1-2-3 John" (I have a problem with saying "JOHN WROTE THESE"); same for what men label as "The Gospel of John" (I have a problem with saying "THESE ARE APOSTLE JOHN'S WORDS / WRITINGS")--see the DIFF?? I was just providing my RESPONSE / ANSWER from that which JOHN ACTUALLY WROTE, which was your QUESTION, see]

And that proves my point with the unknown writer of Hebrews.

Does not matter then who wrote what -
what was written by the inspiration of the HOLY SPIRIT makes it the Word of God,
and that matters to God and to us.

DavidTree said:
How about the Apostle John? can you give us just one verse where he says - 'we will not face the Antichrist, it will not happen until after we leave'

I actually don't think there are that many genuine post-trib proponents here. I think they assume that position, as those who also assume the, God didn't predestine Salvation and the Lamb's Book of Life written before the foundation of the world story is a lie, because they want to incite Christians to become upset with their obstinate pov. And they also want to see just how long we'll labor to change minds that have absolutely no intention of changing, because their minds are made up to mock and troll Christians.

Seriously. It's so obvious. Who, when they claim the name of Christ, insists they're not a Christian according to God's plan having unfolded to include them before the foundation of the world? Nobody.

That's the biggest most stark neon yellow tell behind the whole argument those type people pursue.

They're anti-Gospel, as God laid out in it being predestined before the foundation of the world! BUT, they're an example God's plan works as planned because there they are telling us they're in Christ because it did work as planned. God called them and they responded because the call of God is spiritually discerned. Fallen people aren't able to hear. But those whom God predestined shall.

God saved his church through predestination of his plan. (And the Bible is full of prophecy! Which is, guess what, those things God predetermined would to occur!)

Same with the lot that insist post-tribulation rapture is reality in scripture. Who believes that when it isn't scripture in the first place?
When at the end of time it's all going to hit the fan, God is going to insure the church he saved suffers the great tribulation , his wrath! That he tells us he will pour onto a fallen rebellious world. Lets not forget in the midst of these discussions the 7 seals, bowls, vials.

So much for the church being saved, huh? Wrath, laid upon a rebellious fallen world. AND THE CHURCH IS THERE TOO! What fun! Salvation, NOT! We'll suffer God's wrath on earth and then leave! Anyone read the description of the great tribulation? Does that sound like something the church God predestined to save would be found deserving by the God that saved them before he created THE WORLD!?

All I was doing was explaining why I responded with something from Revelation rather than from where you were expecting an answer to be derived from [solely], since your question (which I quoted, see below) referred "Apostle John" [on the subject pertaining to] "Antichrist" (<--which SPECIFIC wording is found in 1 John 2:18--and elsewhere in 1Jn)...

... I was EXPLAINING my REASONS for going outside of 1 John to address your SPECIFIC QUESTION (where you likely expected a response to have come from 1Jn)... TO have my ANSWER be from where "Apostle John" actually ADDRESSES this (which I showed in my post... and many other posts I've made on the issue of "CHRONOLOGY"--you seem to be missing HALF OF IT, when you say the first item of the AC's career is what is referred to in 2Th2:4 "SITTETH"... it's not).

Try not to make my words / explanation out to be any more than it actually is.

Yes but it is right to depart from Moses .... it is not right to depart from Christ.

Even YOU admit that apostacy is departure from ... not departure to as it would need to be to fit the rapture.

Wrong. Accurately the definition is literally, "a leaving, from a previous standing."

I truly believe that in 2 Thes 2:3, the Apostle Paul is using the term "apostasis" as a descriptor for our leaving this earth and fallen body. Paul did not use the term RAPTURE here. He used another word with THE SAME ACTION. Different flavor, different nuance, different notion, "a leaving, from a previous standing" fits beautifully into BEING REMOVED FROM THE EARTH and shedding our earthen vessels for glorious new bodies fit for for heaven.

i do not go back to old posts - so let's get back to this important question

Where does the Apostle John, in his letters or his Gospel say that the pre-trib rapture comes before the Antichrist

simple, straight forward verse(s) is what we are to look at that speak directly to His Coming - thank you

Hi!

The only issue that troubles me, departure implies that the one leaving does so of his own accord and initiative, and this is not the case with the ""harpazo / SNATCH / caught up / rapture [G726]" (thank you TDW!!) catching away of the Church

The Rapture is not a choice.
So when it happens, those who are His, are taken by force..
Says alot about mankind, even believers......

God Bless!

Yes.

That is what my pastor 45 years ago pointed out in his sermon (though he didn't list out which versions, as you have here), and explained that this was the meaning of our verse under discussion (and he was an excellent pastor who was actually very well-studied). It made perfect sense to me.

It was only years later, when I was in my 20s that I began hearing this passage taught the other way ('a falling away FROM THE FAITH'), which led me to "study this out for myself" to see if these things be so--(I was willing to change my view if that's where scripture itself led)--and that is why I came to the firm conclusion I have (since then) that my pastor was indeed correct.

He wasn't always correct on everything, but one thing that stands out was his humility...
...when he discovered that he had been teaching something incorrectly (for years even), but had come to realize his mistake, he would admit this openly and changed his msgs accordingly... an example was when he had formerly taught the "taken" and "left" passages spoke of the "rapture" (which was a very common way to view it back in those days of the 70s--you recall the popular movies put out at the time, right?) A number of years later he realized that's not accurate biblically, and thus changed his sermons accordingly, and acknowledging this openly to us / the congregation. Boy, I really miss him... I have the greatest respect for him.

Departure does not change the meaning of what Paul said = It is not the lie of pre-trib rapture which you teach.

The falling away/departure is from the truth just as the our Lord said and the Apostle Paul said and the Apostle John said.

You TDW are not an apostle - maybe a false apostle as you seek to twist scripture continuously and change meanings for your error.

Someone else in 2 Thessalonians does this also - "the man of sin"

Notice what else the APOSTLE Paul says: And then the lawless one will be revealed, whom the Lord will consume with the breath of His mouth and destroy with the brightness of His Coming.

There it is again - the Second Coming of Christ -
Everything is tied to His Coming - the Resurrection, the Rapture, the Judgments

What else did the APOSTLE Paul say:
But we are bound to give thanks to God always for you, brethren beloved by the Lord, because God from the beginning chose you for salvation through sanctification by the Spirit and belief in the truth, to which He called you by our gospel, for the obtaining of the glory of our Lord Jesus Christ.

Paul could easily said God chose us for pre-trib rapture - but he did not because it does not exist with God.

What does then??? SALVATION thru Sanctification by the Spirit in belief of the TRUTH.