The Falling Away - pre-trib rapture or ???

Thank you and please forgive any of my short snappy posts - that is just me - a hockey player since 8.

I think you defend the true faith perfectly. Keep up the good work. Glory to God.

Would we agree that Deuteronomy 4:24 For the LORD thy God is a consuming fire, even a jealous God.
Would we agree it means just what it says our God is a jealous God and a consuming fire?

Would we agree Deuteronomy 4:25 When thou shalt beget children, and children's children, and ye shall have remained long in the land, and shall corrupt yourselves, and make a graven image, or the likeness of any thing, and shall do evil in the sight of the LORD thy God, to provoke him to anger:
Would we agree God can be provoked to anger?

Deuteronomy 4:26-28 I call heaven and earth to witness against you this day, that ye shall soon utterly perish from off the land whereunto ye go over Jordan to possess it; ye shall not prolong your days upon it, but shall utterly be destroyed. 27And the LORD shall scatter you among the nations, and ye shall be left few in number among the heathen, whither the LORD shall lead you. 28And there ye shall serve gods, the work of men's hands, wood and stone, which neither see, nor hear, nor eat, nor smell

Would we agree that what happens in verses 26-28 is because God is a jealous God and they have driven him to anger so these not so pleasant things are the outcome from their actions?

Deuteronomy 4:29 But if from thence thou shalt seek the LORD thy God, thou shalt find him, if thou seek him with all thy heart and with all thy soul.
Would we agree that even though they have sinned against God and is angry he will still hear if he is truly sought?

Deuteronomy 4:30 When thou art in tribulation, and all these things are come upon thee, even in the latter days, if thou turn to the LORD thy God, and shalt be obedient unto his voice;
Would we agree that God calls what he has brought upon them tribulation? If so then would we agree that Gods anger and tribulation do connect?

Would we also agree in Romans 2:4-9 Or despisest thou the riches of his goodness and forbearance and longsuffering; not knowing that the goodness of God leadeth thee to repentance? 5But after thy hardness and impenitent heart treasurest up unto thyself wrath against the day of wrath and revelation of the righteous judgment of God; 6Who will render to every man according to his deeds: 7To them who by patient continuance in well doing seek for glory and honour and immortality, eternal life: 8But unto them that are contentious, and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness, indignation and wrath, 9Tribulation and anguish, upon every soul of man that doeth evil, of the Jew first, and also of the Gentile;
Would we agree that Paul has shown that they do work in conjunction Gods wrath and tribulation?

I have asked it this way to point out how some of us make a connection and find that tribulation, great tribulation, and wrath is connected for us. Hope it makes sense which if it does will show how we make the connection and can call tribulation, wrath and vice versa.

If it does not make sense or you can not see a connection then why when we state our position why a disconnect.

I agree with those things when they are set in their appropriate context.

Here's why:

You're using pre-crucifixion examples of God's wrath. The crucifixion of Jesus satisfied God's wrath. The only people subject to any of God's wrath are non-Christians, which is why the great tribulation is not God's wrath because that would subject Christian saints to God's wrath.

John 3:36
36He that believeth on the Son hath everlasting life: and he that believeth not the Son shall not see life; but the wrath of God abideth on him.

Romans 5:8-9
8But God commendeth his love toward us, in that, while we were yet sinners, Christ died for us.
9Much more then, being now justified by his blood, we shall be saved from wrath through him.

1 Thessalonians 5:9
9For God hath not appointed us to wrath, but to obtain salvation by our Lord Jesus Christ,

1 John 4:10
10Herein is love, not that we loved God, but that he loved us, and sent his Son to be the propitiation for our sins.

Peace to you and Good Night

I will have to get back to ya tomorrow bro if that is cool just gonna call it a eve and kick back some. I am more than willing to do so go over our different positions. I am looking to find the LCD or the lowest points that we can agree on and go from there so even if we don't ultimately agree we can see where each is coming from so there is at least that connection. So anyway gonna call it a eve and hope it is cool to pick back up tomorrow.

Have a good evening. Just reply when you're ready.

For if their rejection is the reconciliation of the world, what will their acceptance be but life from the dead?

"there acceptance be but life from the dead" - speaks of the Resurrection at His Coming which will also bring about their restoration.

You all are wrong about the moon. It's not a lunar eclipse:

blood moon - red moon OR dark moon?


The issue is what does it mean for the moon to "turn into blood"?


Blood can be 4 different colors, blue (in body), red (in and out of the body, lasts a short time), brown (outside of body), black/dark brown (outside of body)

Contextually Rev 6:12 has the sun going dark, so the moon would go dark too because without the sun we could not see the moon. If the sun goes dark, you could not see a red moon. So, the moon will be as dark as the sun and that is because at the second coming there is darkness:


Amos 5:20 Shall not the day of the LORD be darkness, and not light? even very dark, and no brightness in it?



Rev:6:12: And I beheld when he had opened the sixth seal, and, lo, there was a great earthquake; and the sun became black as sackcloth of hair, and the moon became as blood;


It is a fact that blood turns brownish, to very dark in color after it begins to dry. The subject here is that the sun shall go dark. Since the moon simply reflects the suns light, when the sun darkens so does the moon. To say something was the color of blood means to say it was dark not that it was red.

God likes to make things somewhat hard to understand so he says something will be the color of blood, and that makes people think red when that shortest color it can be. The majority of the time it's out of the body it's dark, dark brown to black, and it's blue when seen in veins.

Both the sun and moon are darkened and give no light. Christ is angry, it’s the day of his wrath and he withholds light from the deceived/evil people of the world, those who have taken the mark of the beast. Christ is the true light of the world and he has cut them off from His glory.

Lets look at other verses that document that.


Matthew 24:29 Immediately ***after the tribulation*** of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:
Matthew 24:30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.

Note that this happens after the tribulation. That means this happens when Christ returns.


Joel 2:30 And I will shew wonders in the heavens and in the earth, blood, and fire, and pillars of smoke.
Joel 2:31 The sun shall be turned into darkness, and the moon into blood, before the great and the terrible day of the LORD come.

Note that the word "before" means at that moment not before as in previous in time. It should be understood as "at" rather than "before" to end any confusion.

06440 paniym {paw-neem'} pl. (but always as sing.) of an unused
noun [paneh{paw-neh'}

1) face
1a) face, faces
1b) presence, person
1c) face (of seraphim or cherubim)
1d) face (of animals)
1e) face, surface (of ground)
1f) as adv of loc/temp
1f1) before and behind, toward, in front of, forward, formerly,
from beforetime, before
1g) with prep
1g1) in front of, before, to the front of, in the presence of,
in the face of, at the face or front of, from the presence of,
from before, from before the face of

This is like when a person would come before a judge for a matter. Which means that he is there at that moment facing the judge.

So, the verse says these things happen at the Lords day, and not "before" in the Lords day as it seems to imply.




Joel:3:13:
Put ye in the sickle, for the harvest is ripe: come, get you down; for the press is full, the fats overflow; for their wickedness is great. (KJV)
Joel:3:14:
Multitudes, multitudes in the valley of decision: for the day of the Lord is near in the valley of decision. (KJV)
Joel:3:15:
The sun and the moon shall be darkened, and the stars shall withdraw their shining. (KJV)


The subject is the Lord's day and how near it is, and then it proceeds to tell us of that day. Also take note that all stars stop shining. It's not just our star/sun. The entire universe will have no light. No light means no redness will be seen so rule out a "blood moon" and any idea of a lunar eclipse.


Zephaniah 1:14
The great day of the LORD is near, it is near, and hasteth greatly, even the voice of the day of the LORD: the mighty man shall cry there bitterly.
Zephaniah 1:15
That day is a day of wrath, a day of trouble and distress, a day of wasteness and desolation, a day of darkness and gloominess, a day of clouds and thick darkness,

The subject is the Lord's day and how near it is, and then it proceeds to tell us of that dark, dark day.

Is:13:9:
Behold, the day of the Lord cometh, cruel both with wrath and fierce anger, to lay the land desolate: and he shall destroy the sinners thereof out of it. (KJV)
Is:13:10:
For the stars of heaven and the constellations thereof shall not give their light: the sun shall be darkened in his going forth, and the moon shall not cause her light to shine. (KJV)

Not only our sun, but all suns in the heavens will stop shining!

The subject is the Lord's day and how near it is, and then it proceeds to tell us of that day.


Joe_2:10 The earth shall quake before them; the heavens shall tremble: the sun and the moon shall be dark, and the stars shall withdraw their shining:

Joe_3:15 The sun and the moon shall be darkened, and the stars shall withdraw their shining.

Again, all suns will stop shining.

This is a complete darkening of the sun and moon, not a partial darkening as a third but totally darkened and not showing any light. This is not a darkness due to something such as "smoke" blocking the light.


Amos 5:18 Woe unto you that desire the day of the LORD! to what end is it for you? the day of the LORD is darkness, and not light.
Amos 5:19 As if a man did flee from a lion, and a bear met him; or went into the house, and leaned his hand on the wall, and a serpent bit him.
Amos 5:20 Shall not the day of the LORD be darkness, and not light? even very dark, and no brightness in it?


Amos 8:9 And it shall come to pass in that day, saith the Lord GOD, that I will cause the sun to go down at noon, and I will darken the earth in the clear day:

Matthew 27:45 Now from the sixth hour there was darkness over all the land unto the ninth hour.
Matthew 27:46 And about the ninth hour Jesus cried with a loud voice, saying, Eli, Eli, lama sabachthani? that is to say, My God, my God, why hast thou forsaken me?


It was dark during the day when Christ died, and it shall be dark again when he returns.

A red moon has no scriptural importance, sorry. I know its exciting to hear of red moons, and how they might signify special meanings and might indicate the endtimes are now or soon....but they don't


The moon is not going to be red when Christ returns. It will be completely dark as all stars and suns everywhere shall be.

Here's another context where "moon shall not give its/her light" is being referenced (I'm not saying this necessarily is the same instance as Matt24:29-31... just showing what can / or has occurred at such a time [/description]):

Ezek32:7 -

Berean Study Bible
When I extinguish you, I will cover the heavens and darken their stars. I will cover the sun with a cloud, and the moon will not give its light.

King James Bible
And when I shall put thee out, I will cover the heaven, and make the stars thereof dark; I will cover the sun with a cloud, and the moon shall not give her light.

Definitely not a lunar eclipse. Plus during one of those the moon isn't even red. This is a "blood sun" lol

"moon shall not give her/its light [H216]" -

https://www.blueletterbible.org/sea...oon+not+give+light&t=KJV&ss=1#s=s_primary_0_1 -
[4 verses]



H216 - https://www.blueletterbible.org/lexicon/h216/kjv/wlc/0-1/

Strong’s Definitions [but shall "NOT" in our verses under discussion, re: moon]
[H216] אוֹר ʼôwr, ore; from H215; illumination or (concrete) luminary (in every sense, including lightning, happiness, etc.):—bright, clear, day, light (-ning), morning, sun.

The moon will turn as blood though. It will be red. The moon doesn't turn blue, purple or black during a lunar eclipse.

Joel 2:31
31The sun shall be turned into darkness, and the moon into blood, before the great and the terrible day of the LORD come.

Acts 2:19-20
19And I will shew wonders in heaven above, and signs in the earth beneath; blood, and fire, and vapour of smoke:20The sun shall be turned into darkness, and the moon into blood, before that great and notable day of the Lord come:

Revelation 6:12
12And I beheld when he had opened the sixth seal, and, lo, there was a great earthquake; and the sun became black as sackcloth of hair, and the moon became as blood;

A lunar eclipse looks like blood. This is what the Bible is describing:

^ It's the way the ancients described a red or reddish, orange or pink moon.
We have become very narrow in our definitions of some things today.

'Red' in the parlance of our ancestors didn't have to be a fire-engine or crayola red to be called "blood -red"

ALL Gods wrath has tribulation in it.

You need it separated to protect a poorly thought out doctrine.

I agree.


[Rev6:12 / Joel 2:31 - 6th Seal time-slot in the chronology... "moon into blood / moon became as blood"]



And... that this is distinct from the phrase "the moon shall not give her light" (which will occur at a completely distinct time-slot in the chronology, as I mentioned in previous posts, explaining why)

Well, let us use your words as an example.

WE need to separate our words from God's words.

Every word of God is flawless;
He is a shield to those who take refuge in Him.
Do not add to His words,
lest He rebuke you and prove you a liar.

Immediately after the tribulation of those days:

‘The sun will be darkened,
and the moon will not give its light;
the stars will fall from the sky,
and the powers of the heavens will be shaken.
At that time the sign of the Son of Man will appear in heaven, and all the tribes of the earth will mourn. They will see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of heaven, with power and great glory. And He will send out His angels with a loud trumpet call, and they will gather His elect from the four winds, from one end of the heavens to the other. Matt 24: 29-31

Did God say - Immediately after His wrath -??? NOPE, NOT THERE, NO WAY, NOW HOW, Don't have a holy cow..........over this.

I am not cliche centered.

I dont go spinning off into one word interpretations.
7th
Last
Trumpet
Trump
Lahaye
Darby
After
Trib/wrath
(All some " smoking gun" postribs use to stay away from the actual pretrib rapture verses)


I am bride/groom/heaven centred and thankful i am able to read and enjoy Gods word and defend against all the false doctrine the Word of God exposes.

Matthew 24:29 "the moon will not give her light" I believe is referring to the blood moon. Given the context of the chapter, it appears the day of the Lord is after the tribulation, at the return of Christ when He gathers His elect, or shortly.

May be the way I am reading this so may be all on me but not sure what you are saying. By pre the death of Christ are we talking sin? As in we needed the death of Christ to pay that penalty? So the the wrath that is associated with sin and the penalty of death we were under but now that penalty no longer applies because Christ has paid our price and we believers are now saved from that?

So as to the second part the way I read it you are saying the tribulation is meant for saved and unsaved alike so it can't be wrath since we have been saved from that so it has to be purely tribulation since meant for saved and unsaved?

Like I said is more than likely just the way I am reading it but wanna make sure I am not reading as it is coming across.