The False Teaching (& Truth) of what happens at the Rapture.

I always understood "under the altar" as being in Paradise which I see as in the earth. Sleep IMO is a body that returns to the earth till the resurrection. Lord says in John 11:26 and whoever lives and believes in me shall never die. Do you believe this?”

I see an intermediate state between being in the body of flesh and blood and a spiritual body.

I'm not forgetting anything. Only the physical body can be said to "sleep". Not the soul/spirit.

Paul was very clear in 2 Cor 5 about either of 2 stages:

Alive - absent from the Lord and present in the body
Dead - absent from the body and at home with the Lord

This is immediate, for those who have trouble with words.

No room for a generic use of the word...sleep...symbolically?

Sleep we are familiar with. What if I said the soul is in a state of ...X....from earthly death until Christ return. what would you call it?

Don't we know the soul is not with Christ until the rapture?

Where is it......dead in 2001 and now.......where is it?

No room for a generic use of the word...sleep...symbolically? Sleep we are familiar with. What if I said the soul is in a state of ...X....from earthly death until Christ return. what would you call it? Don't we know the soul is not with Christ until the rapture? Where is it......dead in 2001 and now.......where is it?
There is no time (of the spiritual world)...from 2001 until now...or...when Christ returns.

Examining the text carefully, there is no reason to believe that the true believers in the Church shall suffer God's wrath.

Examining the text carefully, there is no reason to believe that the true believers in the Church shall suffer God's wrath.
On the contrary, judgement only comes upon heretics/apostates/rebels (unbelievers) who have invaded the Church assembly. Again there is a pattern of singling out INDIVIDUAL guilty parties for judgement...and them ALONE.
On these grounds, I likewise believe that the Church will not suffer God's wrath during the 70th week of Daniel tribulation. They will be raptured out of it per Rev 3:10....a guarantee to the FAITHFUL CHURCH.

Rev 2:12-17
“And to the angel of the church in Pergamos write,

‘These things says He who has the sharp two-edged sword: “I know your works, and where you dwell, where Satan’s throne is. And you hold fast to My name, and did not deny My faith even in the days in which Antipas was My faithful martyr, who was killed among you, where Satan dwells. But I have a few things against you, because you have there (singling out the apostates/heretics) those who hold the doctrine of Balaam, who taught Balak to put a stumbling block before the children of Israel, to eat things sacrificed to idols, and to commit sexual immorality. Thus you also have those (apostates/heretics) who hold the doctrine of the Nicolaitans, which thing I hate. Repent, or else I will come to you quickly and will fight against ***them***(not believers) with the sword of My mouth.

“He who has an ear, let him hear what the Spirit says to the churches. To him who overcomes I will give some of the hidden manna to eat. And I will give him a white stone, and on the stone a new name written which no one knows except him who receives it.” ’ (guarantee of salvation to faithful believers)

Rev 2:18-26
“And to the angel of the church in Thyatira write,

‘These things says the Son of God, who has eyes like a flame of fire, and His feet like fine brass: “I know your works, love, service, faith, and your patience; and as for your works, the last are more than the first. Nevertheless I have a few things against you, because you allow***that*** (apostate/heretic) woman Jezebel, who calls herself a prophetess, to teach and seduce My servants to commit sexual immorality and eat things sacrificed to idols. And I gave ***her*** time to repent of ***her*** sexual immorality, and she did not repent. Indeed I will cast ***her*** into a sickbed, and those who commit adultery with her into great tribulation, unless they repent of their deeds. I will kill ***her*** children with death, and all the churches shall know that I am He who searches the minds and hearts. And I will give to each one of you according to your works.

“Now to you I say, and to the rest in Thyatira, as many as do not have this doctrine, who have not known the depths of Satan, as they say, I will put on you no other burden. But hold fast what you have till I come. And he who overcomes, and keeps My works until the end, to him I will give power over the nations—

Rev 3:3-5
Remember therefore how you have received and heard; hold fast and repent. Therefore if you ***will not*** watch (rebels/heretics/apostates), I will come upon you as a thief, and you will not know what hour I will come upon you. You have a few names even in Sardis who have not defiled their garments (faithful believers); and they shall walk with Me in white, for they are worthy. He who overcomes shall be clothed in white garments, and I will not blot out his name from the Book of Life; but I will confess his name before My Father and before His angels.

How about because ' because thou hast left thy first love'? Or because thou hast there them that hold the doctrine of Balaam? Or So hast thou also them that hold the doctrine of the Nicolaitanes, which thing I hate. Or because thou sufferest that woman Jezebel, which calleth herself a prophetess, to teach and to seduce my servants to commit fornication, and to eat things sacrificed unto idols?

None of those seem to be anything 'the church' might need to 'suffer' for?

CERTAINLY, I don't believe that CHRISTIANS as individuals should suffer for 'what the body/church/bride' as a whole is doing but that is because I also believe JUDGMENT will be on HIM (the individual Christian), that overcomes, HIM that endures to the end, HIM that may be tried of the devil.

I have a question you might be able to answer. Let's say Satan hit the earth last week, healed the deadly wound, set up the image, and was performing supernatural signs and wonders, like making lightening come down form the sky, and the whole world was worshipping after him, wouldn't the churches that didn't know any better also be jumping on that train because you must admit, someone ACTUALLY performing 'miracles' who has just saved the world from massive chaos and instituted a system of prosperity for all who worship him and is the answer to everyone's prayers and claims to be 'Christ returned' , would be easy to follow, right? Do you believe 'the church' as 'an entity' would no longer be referred to as 'the church/body of Christ past Rev 3 if they did that?

Nope doesn’t sound like it

You are not addressing why I am wrong. Tell me?.

What is his answer then when he is shown the dead in Christ rise first? ( 1 thes4)
Because postribbers have the dead in christ rising at the white horses at that particular coming from heaven.

That puts the dead in christ rising after the gathering of Jews in rev 14, which is way before the coming on white horses.

(Running man fail)

What is his answer then when he is shown the dead in Christ rise first? ( 1 thes4)
Because postribbers have the dead in christ rising at the white horses at that particular coming from heaven.

That puts the dead in christ rising after the gathering of Jews in rev 14, which is way before the coming on white horses.

(Running man fail)

Instead of making stupid and inaccurate claims, just explain HOW you think ch 14 doesn't fit my doctrine.

Jesus returns on The Last Day as Mentioned in the Gospel of John. The first resurrection happens , Dead in Christ rise first It is the Second Coming of Christ Living Believers are caught up with those raised from the dead to meet the Lord in the air as far as timing it is the Last Day . The spirits of just men made perfect I assume those in Heaven will receive their glorified Bodies while the living believers are translated and are changed in an instant. I'll leave the micro details to the theologians

Jesus returns on The Last Day as Mentioned in the Gospel of John. The first resurrection happens , Dead in Christ rise first It is the Second Coming of Christ Living Believers are caught up with those raised from the dead to meet the Lord in the air as far as timing it is the Last Day . The spirits of just men made perfect I assume those in Heaven will receive their glorified Bodies while the living believers are translated and are changed in an instant. I'll leave the micro details to the theologians

I don’t . I like to talk about the Bible . Most of the time I am referring to Scripture that I assume is received as the final authority but is often usurped . First Absolutely ( Rocky ) “ Absolutely”. Speaking of models I did not know that I had one. So please let me get back to you on that one. I was in my twenties in the seventies and now I am in my seventies in the twenties been in another blog and pretty tired just about ready to hit it . Just stopped by to see if there were any notifications . I’ll be back tomorrow and we can see what the scriptures say. Meanwhile can you clarify what you are saying , I really have no idea what you are saying because it is apparantly what I believe and I know that what I believe is scriptural so when discuss it let’s be clear I am a post-tribber. Are you a pre-tribber? Let me know . Look forward to sharing what the Bible says , anyway I read Chuck Smiths ( Calvary Chapel / pretribulationist) book on the rapture. I also have read a post tribulationist book on the same subject both camps use the same scriptures. Perhaps we can shed some light on the subject.

Do you believe the Bible says THE GREAT TRIBULATION . I don’t see it in the authorized version . I see a reference to great tribulation.

[this is not to say that I agree with many of "Abs" views, because he and I differ on a number of points...]



... I just wanted to point out that the interlinears show the definite article ('the') with this phrase, as it is used in Revelation 7:14 (and many of us believe this is speaking of the SAME time-frame that Matthew 24:21 also speaks to):

-- Revelation 7:14 [interlinear example] "THE great tribulation" - https://biblehub.com/interlinear/revelation/7-14.htm



... which speaks specifically (and only) of the SECOND HALF of the future "7 years" (leading up to Christ's "RETURN" to the earth at Rev19)

Sorry
Cant help you.

By now, if you haven't clicked on 50 attempts, it is a waste of my valuable time.

Believe what ever suits you.