when will the most evil doctrin in the world get banned on this site.

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You put those words in his mouth. You are lying when you say that he claims that.
Yes, in 2006, I chose to keep the Sabbath of the Fourth Commandment and lose a $120,000/year job, and after God restored me to that job 2 years later, to this day I forgo making more on Saturday than a lotta people make all week...so I can climb on CC and break the 9th commandment, right?

Check mine and his posts...he absolutely argues that the wicked can partake of "agape" love of God.
 

Gideon300

Well-known member
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No OSAS in the NT! How is deny OSAS denying Jesus??? It isn't! OSAS is truly Satan's license to sin.
Such a distortion of truth. No one who is born again loves to sin. How can eternal life not be eternal? How can indestructible life be destroyed? Is the power of Christ too weak to finish the word that He started? How can someone be unborn again? The confusion, as I've said more often than I'd like, is the definition of salvation. I'm not going over it again.

Christians need to preach the whole counsel of God, not cherry pick Bible verses that suit their preconceived notions.
 

Dino246

Senior Member
Jun 30, 2015
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Yes, in 2006, I chose to keep the Sabbath of the Fourth Commandment and lose a $120,000/year job, and after God restored me to that job 2 years later, to this day I forgo making more on Saturday than a lotta people make all week...so I can climb on CC and break the 9th commandment, right?

Check mine and his posts...he absolutely argues that the wicked can partake of "agape" love of God.
I saw the post where you accused him of believing what you stated above. Now you claim he believes that? Do you honestly believe your own rhetoric? Maybe instead of being so argumentative, you need to check your behaviour. Disagreeing with someone, even vigorously, does not justify claiming that your words are actually theirs.
 
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Such a distortion of truth. No one who is born again loves to sin. How can eternal life not be eternal? How can indestructible life be destroyed? Is the power of Christ too weak to finish the word that He started? How can someone be unborn again? The confusion, as I've said more often than I'd like, is the definition of salvation. I'm not going over it again.

Christians need to preach the whole counsel of God, not cherry pick Bible verses that suit their preconceived notions.
There would be one scripture you would need to consider with the once saved always saved idea. It is Mathew 10:22, if you are already saved why would you have to get to the end to be confirmed as saved? Was Judas Iscariot always saved? He is the foremost example of somebody you wouldn't think to fall from grace, however. The Christian walk is your whole life. Christian come and go daily and leave God. Until you are dead or until you make it into Paradise, you really just have to continue striving for salvation and work hard to continue on the path, MATHEW 7: 13&14
 
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I saw the post where you accused him of believing what you stated above. Now you claim he believes that? Do you honestly believe your own rhetoric? Maybe instead of being so argumentative, you need to check your behaviour. Disagreeing with someone, even vigorously, does not justify claiming that your words are actually theirs.
Is English your first language? Posthuman has argued several times, including recently, the wicked can partake of the "agape" of God, and has cited as "evidence" for this claim the following verse:

"...men loved darkness rather than light" which is not even "agape" but "agapeo".

Are we clear?
 

Gideon300

Well-known member
Mar 18, 2021
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There would be one scripture you would need to consider with the once saved always saved idea. It is Mathew 10:22, if you are already saved why would you have to get to the end to be confirmed as saved? Was Judas Iscariot always saved? He is the foremost example of somebody you wouldn't think to fall from grace, however. The Christian walk is your whole life. Christian come and go daily and leave God. Until you are dead or until you make it into Paradise, you really just have to continue striving for salvation and work hard to continue on the path, MATHEW 7: 13&14
No, you have it wrong. Judas was never saved. He could not have betrayed Lord Jesus if he was.

Do you think that a person is saved one minute and condemned to hell the next? How about the Corinthian shacked up with his father's wife? Was he condemned to hell? From what I read, far from it. He was restored to fellowship when he repented. Paul exhorted the Corinthians to bring him back into fellowship.

Again, many Christian do not know what it means to be saved. If you base your standing with God on your behaviour, you are already lost. You will never match up to God's holiness.

I can lose my salvation if someone goes back in time and stops Jesus going to the cross. Salvation is not based on what I do. Lord Jesus said, "It is finished" 2,000 years ago. I can add nothing to my salvation and for sure I cannot take away from it. Eternal life is eternal. Indestructible life is just that, indestructible. Who can stop me from being born again? Only someone who can stop Jesus dying and rising from the dead. You might want to look over your shoulder watching to see if God is going to throw you into the lake of fire. My God is bigger, more loving, more gracious and more merciful than that.

I'm divorced. According to some, my Christian life is over. I've been told that to my face. That was 30 years ago, give or take. I'm still, here, still confessing Jesus as my Lord and I still believe in my heart that God raised Him from the dead. My Bible says that therefore I am saved.
 

wattie

Senior Member
Feb 24, 2009
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No Scripture? Of course not. OSAS is not in the Bible.
Okay, this will be my last post in this thread. We all know this has been thrashed to death.. and then thrashed to death again.. and then again..

John 5:24.. someone believing in Christ HAS everlasting life. Not a maybe... they do.

John 3:16.. someone believing in Christ will not perish and will have everlasting life. Again not a maybe.

John 3:36.. someone believing again has eternal life.

Rom_6:23 For the wages of sin is death; but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord.--- again eternal life..

Rom 5:15 But not as the offence, so also is the free gift. For if through the offence of one many be dead, much more the grace of God, and the gift by grace, which is by one man, Jesus Christ, hath abounded unto many.

Blessings,

have a nice day :)
 

Rondonmon

Senior Member
May 13, 2016
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No not defeated, I still keep my hopes up and try to remain steadfast in my faith always I remember the scriptures of Jesus will soon restore you, that thought will pass, along with the next one, I do seek the lord and practice my faith every day. I hold on to the hope that one day my tormenting demonic spirit will leave and I will have peace. But Paul also called it a tormenting spirit, which means he too was being tormented. And being tormented can also ware you out mentally. You don't choose a harsh word like being tormented if there wasn't any severity to the torment Paul was receiving, to be tormented is to be mentally abused even haunted and hounded.

And it's worse for those people who know the demon is there, because demons hates being noticed. They hate being uncovered. Being tormented can drive you mentally unstable and to point of dispair. That is what Paul was describing, and worse than that he thought God had sent him the tormenting spirit. Or was he made to think that by the tormenting spirit.

I deal with punk demons everyday, I'm well practised now in not being defeated. But they still have the ability to make you feel tormented.

My eyes are open not closed, through my faith and practice of my faith in kindness prayer honour hope truth, all the gifts, I hold on to patience and peace when a tormenting spirit is trying to cause unrest, I hold on to kindness when a tormenting spirit is cause angry with hatred I hold on to patience and quietness, when a tormenting spirit is trying to cause me to speak there thoughts.

There you have it, understand you can be predestined into adoption by Jesus and I understand that should be the only way to understand predestination, but I am not anybody, I am me, and I choose not to believe in predestination of any kind. A person has to believe to be saved.
Words have a way of morphing, gay = happy to me, younger people think differently. Torment is like Departure which people twisted into apostacy. But I digress.


MAIN POINT HERE:

Lets say you were a big boss on a construction site that has 100 people on site. When you roll up on day one you have FORETHOUGHT and planed things out and thus you have PREDESTINATED certain people for certain jobs on that very site, because the bigger the site is might make you might need 2 plumbers on hand or 4, or more as pertaining unto the size. So, God likewise has a special calling for us all. It doesn't mean God predestinated our destiny, God had hopes for Judas but he failed. God foreknew this, but Judas made hos own path.
 
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For me personally I see both scriptures to mean I will teach you all things with love, I don't see a teaching that's says I will teach you then test you, and if ye shall fail your banished or i don't see a teaching there in Jesus I will send a messenger of satan to keep you in check along the way.
James 1:12 Blessed is the man that endureth temptation: for when he is tried, he shall receive the crown of life, which the Lord hath promised to them that love him.


I could give a bunch of Scripture if you would like but the best way to explain it to me is with this question, and to share my opinions.

Would you ever take an untested weapon into battle? THE WISE man/woman says ABSOLUTELY NOT.

Time and again, man says or promises or makes you believe but when it comes to putting forth more than words... well... Parable of the Sower is a perfect example.

If YOU WERE THE ONE offering ETERNAL LIFE, wouldn't you want to be sure of who received that gift? Words are cheap. It's easy to act all nice and good when everything is going your way. BUT WHO YOU ARE IN TIMES OF TROUBLE really brings out THE REAL PERSON.

Ask any LANDLORD. People are perfect when moving in. But when it is time to evict, THEN you truly find out who you are truly dealing with.

So that is what I think and believe and agree with. TEST AWAY. TEST everyone.

James 1:2 My brethren, count it all joy when ye fall into divers temptations;
3 Knowing this, that the trying of your faith worketh patience.
4 But let patience have her perfect work, that ye may be perfect and entire, wanting nothing.


1 Peter 4:12 Beloved, think it not strange concerning the fiery trial which is to try you, as though some strange thing happened unto you:
13 But rejoice, inasmuch as ye are partakers of Christ's sufferings; that, when his glory shall be revealed, ye may be glad also with exceeding joy.
14 If ye be reproached for the name of Christ, happy are ye; for the spirit of glory and of God resteth upon you: on their part he is evil spoken of, but on your part he is glorified.
15 But let none of you suffer as a murderer, or as a thief, or as an evildoer, or as a busybody in other men's matters.
16 Yet if any man suffer as a Christian, let him not be ashamed; but let him glorify God on this behalf.
17 For the time is come that judgment must begin at the house of God: and if it first begin at us, what shall the end be of them that obey not the gospel of God?
18 And if the righteous scarcely be saved, where shall the ungodly and the sinner appear?
19 Wherefore let them that suffer according to the will of God commit the keeping of their souls to him in well doing, as unto a faithful Creator.

3986. peirasmos ►
Strong's Concordance
peirasmos: an experiment, a trial, temptation
Original Word: πειρασμός, οῦ, ὁ
Part of Speech: Noun, Masculine
Transliteration: peirasmos
Phonetic Spelling: (pi-ras-mos')
Definition: an experiment, a trial, temptation
Usage: (a) trial, probation, testing, being tried, (b) temptation, (c) calamity, affliction.
HELPS Word-studies
Cognate: 3986 peirasmós (from 3985 /peirázō) – temptation or test – both senses can apply simultaneously (depending on the context). The positive sense ("test") and negative sense ("temptation") are functions of the context (not merely the words themselves).
 
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Why are you focused on the losers? Why aren't you focused on the martyrs?
Focus is on truths, both accepted and denied :) For instance, it's denied the "partakers of the Holy Spirit" in Hebrews 6 are saints. Let's see:

Fact: Acts 5:32 KJV says God has given His Spirit "to them (saints) that obey Him".
Fact: Romans 8:7 KJV says carnal minds can't obey God, even if they want to.
Conclusion: "Those" which were previously renewed unto repentance, but later fell away into irreversible impenitence...can only have been saints.

But, comparing these two Scriptures is unnecessary for those who understand the concept of "falling away". You don't "fall away" from something - ladder, rooftop, mountain, etc. - without first having been secure and supported" by that something; in the case of this passage: Jesus.
 
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Why would the saint choose to walk away? Even the pretender Simon the Sorcerer wanted Peter to pray for him to be spared God's wrath. Any genuine saint will hold fast to Christ and His salvation. But pretenders may not do so. Christians under Rome were willing to die rather than "walk away". So this whole theory is hypothetical and Christians should be focused on Christ, not walking away from Him.

Nobody can lose their salvation since it involves (a) the New Birth, (b) the gift of eternal life, (c) the gift of the Holy Spirit, (d) the gift of Christ Himself within, and (e) being "kept by the power of God". This is no ordinary matter, since Christ is involved at every point.

At the same time, God has ways and means of dealing with His disobedient children. And therefore He tells Christians to examine themselves. But the chastisement of believers is not the same as the damnation of unbelievers. Therefore it is Satan who is behind the false doctrine of loss of salvation. He would love to see everyone in the Hell created for him and his evil angels.

But in the end, GOD DOESN'T TEACH IT THAT WAY. So neither should man. Each man should ARRIVE to that conclusion on his own precept on precept verses on verse THE WAY GOD TELLS US TO TEACH.

Everyone who is a proponent of it says the same thing and defends THEIR CONCLUSIONS with the reasons their CONCLUSIONS are correct.

BUT God is specific in THAT IS NOT HOW WE are to TEACH HIS WORDS. So though correct, THE ENTIRE TEACHING OF IT IS AGAINST GODS WILL.

Isaiah 28:5 In that day shall the LORD of hosts be for a crown of glory, and for a diadem of beauty, unto the residue of his people,

6 And for a spirit of judgment to him that sitteth in judgment, and for strength to them that turn the battle to the gate.

7 But they also have erred through wine, and through strong drink are out of the way; the priest and the prophet have erred through strong drink, they are swallowed up of wine, they are out of the way through strong drink; they err in vision, they stumble in judgment.

8 For all tables are full of vomit and filthiness, so that there is no place clean.

9 Whom shall he teach knowledge? and whom shall he make to understand doctrine? them that are weaned from the milk, and drawn from the breasts.

10 For precept must be upon precept, precept upon precept; line upon line, line upon line; here a little, and there a little:

11 For with stammering lips and another tongue will he speak to this people.

12 TO WHOM HE SAID, THIS IS THE REST WHEREWITH YE MAY CAUSE THE WEARY TO REST AND THIS IS THE REFRESHING


YET THEY WOULD NOT HEAR



THEY would rather PROMOTE the conclusions BECAUSE TO THEM (and you can even hear it today in people defending doctrines such as OSASed)



13 But the word of the LORD was unto them


(and if you don't put the MOCKING and dripping with SARCASM tone into the next verses you miss the whole point of what is HAPPENING IN TODAYS WORLD and what I am trying to say)



precept upon precept, precept upon precept; line upon line, line upon line; here a little, and there a little;


(and this is THE END EFFECT of not doing it Gods way, which we see much of today)


that they might go, and fall backward, and be broken, and snared, and taken.

(and that is what is coming to them)

14 Wherefore hear the word of the LORD, ye scornful men, that rule this people which is in Jerusalem.


15 Because ye have said, We have made a covenant with death, and with hell are we at agreement; when the overflowing scourge shall pass through, it shall not come unto us: for we have made lies our refuge, and under falsehood have we hid ourselves:
16 Therefore thus saith the Lord GOD, Behold, I lay in Zion for a foundation a stone, a tried stone, a precious corner stone, a sure foundation: he that believeth shall not make haste.
17 Judgment also will I lay to the line, and righteousness to the plummet: and the hail shall sweep away the refuge of lies, and the waters shall overflow the hiding place.
18 And your covenant with death shall be disannulled, and your agreement with hell shall not stand; when the overflowing scourge shall pass through, then ye shall be trodden down by it.

19 From the time that it goeth forth it shall take you: for morning by morning shall it pass over, by day and by night: and it shall be a vexation only to understand the report.

20 For the bed is shorter than that a man can stretch himself on it: and the covering narrower than that he can wrap himself in it.


21 For the LORD shall rise up as in mount Perazim, he shall be wroth as in the valley of Gibeon, that he may do his work, his strange work; and bring to pass his act, his strange act.
22 Now therefore be ye not mockers, lest your bands be made strong: for I have heard from the Lord GOD of hosts a consumption, even determined upon the whole earth.
23 Give ye ear, and hear my voice; hearken, and hear my speech.
24 Doth the plowman plow all day to sow? doth he open and break the clods of his ground?
25 When he hath made plain the face thereof, doth he not cast abroad the fitches, and scatter the cummin, and cast in the principal wheat and the appointed barley and the rie in their place?
26 For his God doth instruct him to discretion, and doth teach him.
27 For the fitches are not threshed with a threshing instrument, neither is a cart wheel turned about upon the cummin; but the fitches are beaten out with a staff, and the cummin with a rod.
28 Bread corn is bruised; because he will not ever be threshing it, nor break it with the wheel of his cart, nor bruise it with his horsemen.
29 This also cometh forth from the LORD of hosts, which is wonderful in counsel, and excellent in working.
 
R

RichMan

Guest
There would be one scripture you would need to consider with the once saved always saved idea. It is Mathew 10:22, if you are already saved why would you have to get to the end to be confirmed as saved? Was Judas Iscariot always saved? He is the foremost example of somebody you wouldn't think to fall from grace, however. The Christian walk is your whole life. Christian come and go daily and leave God. Until you are dead or until you make it into Paradise, you really just have to continue striving for salvation and work hard to continue on the path, MATHEW 7: 13&14
What you are saying is that your salvation depends on your actions, works, not on the work of Jesus.
To depend on yourself is very dangerous.
You cannot keep yourself saved.
As for Judas, he was never saved, He had many opportunities but chose to reject Jesus.
 

tourist

Senior Member
Mar 13, 2014
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Temptations and vices are always there. For me they are flies to be swatted. Done away with realization and prayer. Do I fail at times, of course. Look forward to eternal joy and never backward to carnal regrets. Ask for forgiveness and strength and then continue climbing up the Holy Mountain. That is the lot of man.

Slavery of this world or Freedom in Christ
Psalm 119:…44I will always obey Your law, forever and ever. 45And I will walk in freedom, for I have sought Your precepts. 46I will speak of Your testimonies before kings, and I will not be ashamed.…
The price of freedom is the Precepts of God. Keep them Holy. Temptation is when you translate duty as choice then one must choose between the world or God. When committed to an argument that pertains to Salvation, it is duty that must drive you, no other considerations from without or within are important. You are upholding the Precepts of God.

Paul`s thorn was a physical ailment that hurt like hell (angel of satan). It must of been painful, and when demanded by God to minister, Paul must of prayed for succor. God`s succor was His Grace, not the alleviation of his pain. While the other Apostles were chosen by Jesus, Paul was compelled - they laid Stephen`s garment before Saul`s feet after being stoned. I believe the narrative is about redemption, not evil spirits. Paul readily accepted all pain and suffering as Christ redeemed him.
I believe that Paul' s thorn in the flesh was guilt from doing the things that he didn't really want to do while neglecting the things that he thought that he should do. Regardless, the grace of God was sufficient.
 

rogerg

Well-known member
Jul 13, 2021
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Not sure what's your point, but based on the fact that you think devil worshipers can partake of agape, I conclude two things:
1. I disagree with whatever you're postulating
2. Posthuman has found himself a disciple

If you believe that one can trust in Christ for salvation too much, or that He is not the Saviour in all ways, then it could be you who is the devil worshipper.

The point of my prior post was to point out that God will save whomever He had chosen to salvation who include even the worst of people. In God's eyes, we have all sinned and fallen short so there is no difference: those saved are justified by Christ, not themselves.
I used Saul/Paul as an example of that as he rightly described himself as the chief sinner, nevertheless, one that God chose for use as a vessel for His own purposes.

[1Ti 1:15 KJV] 15 This [is] a faithful saying, and worthy of all acceptation, that Christ Jesus came into the world to save sinners; of whom I am chief.

[Rom 3:23 KJV] 23 For all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God;
 

wintersrain

Active member
Feb 20, 2022
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If God hasn't robbed us of freewill, then yes, all is undone.

Ezekiel 18:24 KJV
But when the righteous turneth away from his righteousness, and committeth iniquity, and doeth according to all the abominations that the wicked man doeth, shall he live? All his righteousness that he hath done shall not be mentioned: in his trespass that he hath trespassed, and in his sin that he hath sinned, in them shall he die.
That's Old Testament. Please provide New Testament proof that we are able to undo God's will by our free choice to elect Hell over eternal life with God.

Particularly of importance to me are verses that state we are unborn in him, and return to our fallen state, after we choose to lose what God himself gifted us with by his grace, not our choice, alone. That would be faith and Salvation. That God stated are irrevocable.
But you say that's not so.

Proceed please. New Testament Books, chapters, verses. Where, as you claim, Christians are able to choose to overcome what God decreed unchangeable.
 
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RichMan

Guest
No, you have it wrong. Judas was never saved. He could not have betrayed Lord Jesus if he was.

Do you think that a person is saved one minute and condemned to hell the next? How about the Corinthian shacked up with his father's wife? Was he condemned to hell? From what I read, far from it. He was restored to fellowship when he repented. Paul exhorted the Corinthians to bring him back into fellowship.

Again, many Christian do not know what it means to be saved. If you base your standing with God on your behaviour, you are already lost. You will never match up to God's holiness.

I can lose my salvation if someone goes back in time and stops Jesus going to the cross. Salvation is not based on what I do. Lord Jesus said, "It is finished" 2,000 years ago. I can add nothing to my salvation and for sure I cannot take away from it. Eternal life is eternal. Indestructible life is just that, indestructible. Who can stop me from being born again? Only someone who can stop Jesus dying and rising from the dead. You might want to look over your shoulder watching to see if God is going to throw you into the lake of fire. My God is bigger, more loving, more gracious and more merciful than that.

I'm divorced. According to some, my Christian life is over. I've been told that to my face. That was 30 years ago, give or take. I'm still, here, still confessing Jesus as my Lord and I still believe in my heart that God raised Him from the dead. My Bible says that therefore I am saved.
Anyone who told you your Christian live is over because you are divorced ought to be flogged.
 
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RichMan

Guest
I believe that Paul' s thorn in the flesh was guilt from doing the things that he didn't really want to do while neglecting the things that he thought that he should do. Regardless, the grace of God was sufficient.
I always though Paul may have had a fear of failing his Savior because of what you stated.
Not that he would lose his salvation, but just to fail the one who gave so much.
 

Rosemaryx

Senior Member
May 3, 2017
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I believe that Paul' s thorn in the flesh was guilt from doing the things that he didn't really want to do while neglecting the things that he thought that he should do. Regardless, the grace of God was sufficient.
A preacher said once that Paul had a thorn in his flesh as a messenger from Satan , because the messenger from Satan was the men who had come into the Corinthian church and was trying to sway them into circumcision and putting them back under the law...

Paul loved the Corinthians , and was very troubled about these men...

Also , Paul allowed to see heaven maybe another reason he had the thorn , to stop him from being prideful , and keeping him humble...
...xox...
 
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If you believe that one can trust in Christ for salvation too much, or that He is not the Saviour in all ways, then it could be you who is the devil worshipper.
I don’t. I also don’t believe an unsaved person can partake of agape love of God
The point of my prior post was to point out that God will save whomever He had chosen to salvation who include even the worst of people. In God's eyes, we have all sinned and fallen short so there is no difference: those saved are justified by Christ, not themselves.
I used Saul/Paul as an example of that as he rightly described himself as the chief sinner, nevertheless, one that God chose for use as a vessel for His own purposes.

[1Ti 1:15 KJV] 15 This [is] a faithful saying, and worthy of all acceptation, that Christ Jesus came into the world to save sinners; of whom I am chief.

[Rom 3:23 KJV] 23 For all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God;
I think you’ve totally missed the point which has nothing to do with whom salvation is available.

God can impart His agape love to whenever He chooses, but they MUST FIRST be changed from a sinner to a saint, from wicked to righteous.