An Analysis on the 144,000 in Revelation

No, I didn't say that. I believe there will be a single resurrection for "those who belong to Him", per 1 Cor 15:23. And that will be "when He comes, also per 1 Cor 15:23.

And that refers to Christ's Second Advent, which will be at the end of the Tribulation.

Rev 20:5 plainly says the resurrection of the trib martyrs is "the first resurrecton". There will be one more resurrection, that one for all the unsaved. Acts 24:15 says there will be "a resurrection for the saved and a resurrection for the unsaved".

btw, I want to make the point that there will be no such thing as a "rapture" as pretribbers fantasize.

Jesus will NOT be taking any glorified believers to heaven, regardless of when.

I think we need to stop using that word, because of what it conjures up and stick with the biblical word "gathered", found in Matt 24 which will be after the Tribulation, and 2 Thess 2:1, which is also after the Trib.

When Jesus returns at the Second Advent, all living believers will be "gathered up" to meet all the dead saints in the air/clouds, and everyone will receive glorified bodies.

From that point, all believers will "be with Him forever" per 1 Thess 4. So, instead of that fantasy trip to heaven, all believers will descend with Christ to earth where they will serve/reign with Him in His kingdom.

I think you are speaking to the wrong man. I am not listening. The man you instructed in so sweet a manner is the man you ought to be speaking to. Not me. Do hope that helps you - but if not lets go to the ravine together where silence is just a prelude to the storm that makes ruin the walk.

I believe you said to me that you believe in mid-trib rapture - yes/no?

Yes.

There is no 144,000 in heaven.The 144,000 being redeemed from the earth is referred in a spiritual sense.From a worldly mind to being virgins,blameless,walking with God..The Levite's are a good reference to the 144,000 because like those in Revelation 14 they are the remnant that God has preserved for himself.The crossing of the Jordan foreshadows a repeat of things to come.They carry the Ark of the Covenant which contains the book of the Law.read Revelation 14.The Levite's(Remnant) still carry the Ark.Which means they have the ministry of The Two Witnesse's.They are 144,000 temples of God with a double dose of Elijah.Aka the Holy Spirit that comes in the name of Jesus.They are literally filled with the spirit of Jesus.The rushing sound of water and peal of thunder is a hint of what's to come.

1 John 5:8
And there are three that bear witness in earth, the Spirit, and the water, and the blood: and these three agree in one.

The water and the blood are the covenants with God.And the spirit is the word of God.The Bible as a whole!

Ephesians 6:17
And take the helmet of salvation, and the sword of the Spirit, which is the word of God:

The Bible are his Two Witnesses of the earth.When they are killed for their testimony the 144,000 are put to death.

Here's some scripture relating to Revelation 14.The first one is a good one because it flat out fits perfectly to what I just said.

Isaiah 43:7-10
Even every one that is called by my name: for I have created him for my glory, I have formed him; yea, I have made him.
Bring forth the blind people that have eyes, and the deaf that have ears.
Let all the nations be gathered together, and let the people be assembled: who among them can declare this, and shew us former things?
(Jesus,that's who).

let them (144k) bring forth their witnesses, (The Bible/Two Witnesses)that they may be justified: or let them hear, and say, It is truth.
Ye are my witnesses, saith the Lord, and my servant whom I have chosen: that ye may know and believe me, and understand that I am he: before me there was no God formed, neither shall there be after me.

Isaiah 2:2
And it shall come to pass in the last days, that the mountain of the Lord's house shall be established in the top of the mountains, and shall be exalted above the hills; and all nations shall flow unto it.


Isaiah 40:9-12
O Zion, that bringest good tidings, get thee up into the high mountain; O Jerusalem, that bringest good tidings, lift up thy voice with strength; lift it up, be not afraid; say unto the cities of Judah, Behold your God!

Behold, the Lord God will come with strong hand, and his arm shall rule for him: behold, his reward is with him, and his work before him. (Rev 14)

He shall feed his flock like a shepherd: he shall gather the lambs with his arm, and carry them in his bosom, and shall gently lead those that are with young.

Who hath measured the waters in the hollow of his hand, and meted out heaven with the span, and comprehended the dust of the earth in a measure, and weighed the mountains in scales, and the hills in a balance?


There's just so much on the 144,000.I Submitted a thread on the 144k and The Two Witnesse's that never got approved a while back.Probably because it wasn't complete. But I really just wanted to slowly add to it.Glad it didn't get approved honestly To much typing and note gathering.

There is no 144,000 in heaven.The 144,000 being redeemed from the earth is referred in a spiritual sense.From a worldly mind to being virgins,blameless,walking with God..The Levite's are a good reference to the 144,000 because like those in Revelation 14 they are the remnant that God has preserved for himself.The crossing of the Jordan foreshadows a repeat of things to come.They carry the Ark of the Covenant which contains the book of the Law.read Revelation 14.The Levite's(Remnant) still carry the Ark.Which means they have the ministry of The Two Witnesse's.They are 144,000 temples of God with a double dose of Elijah.Aka the Holy Spirit that comes in the name of Jesus.They are literally filled with the spirit of Jesus.The rushing sound of water and peal of thunder is a hint of what's to come.

1 John 5:8
And there are three that bear witness in earth, the Spirit, and the water, and the blood: and these three agree in one.

The water and the blood are the covenants with God.And the spirit is the word of God.The Bible as a whole!

Ephesians 6:17
And take the helmet of salvation, and the sword of the Spirit, which is the word of God:

The Bible are his Two Witnesses of the earth.When they are killed for their testimony the 144,000 are put to death.

Here's some scripture relating to Revelation 14.The first one is a good one because it flat out fits perfectly to what I just said.

Isaiah 43:7-10
Even every one that is called by my name: for I have created him for my glory, I have formed him; yea, I have made him.
Bring forth the blind people that have eyes, and the deaf that have ears.
Let all the nations be gathered together, and let the people be assembled: who among them can declare this, and shew us former things?
(Jesus,that's who).

let them (144k) bring forth their witnesses, (The Bible/Two Witnesses)that they may be justified: or let them hear, and say, It is truth.
Ye are my witnesses, saith the Lord, and my servant whom I have chosen: that ye may know and believe me, and understand that I am he: before me there was no God formed, neither shall there be after me.

Isaiah 2:2
And it shall come to pass in the last days, that the mountain of the Lord's house shall be established in the top of the mountains, and shall be exalted above the hills; and all nations shall flow unto it.


Isaiah 40:9-12
O Zion, that bringest good tidings, get thee up into the high mountain; O Jerusalem, that bringest good tidings, lift up thy voice with strength; lift it up, be not afraid; say unto the cities of Judah, Behold your God!

Behold, the Lord God will come with strong hand, and his arm shall rule for him: behold, his reward is with him, and his work before him. (Rev 14)

He shall feed his flock like a shepherd: he shall gather the lambs with his arm, and carry them in his bosom, and shall gently lead those that are with young.

Who hath measured the waters in the hollow of his hand, and meted out heaven with the span, and comprehended the dust of the earth in a measure, and weighed the mountains in scales, and the hills in a balance?


There's just so much on the 144,000.I Submitted a thread on the 144k and The Two Witnesse's that never got approved a while back.Probably because it wasn't complete. But I really just wanted to slowly add to it.Glad it didn't get approved honestly To much typing and note gathering.

You can't provide a post number because it never happened. What does that make you?

Please read Romans 9 and Galatians 3.

The promises were not made to the "nation" of Israel. It's not as though the promises were made in vain. It is a fact that not all of Israel are Israel. The promise is counted through the singular seed of Abraham, not the seeds. Christ is that seed. And if you are Christ's you are Abraham's seed and heirs according to the promise.

Abraham wasn't a Jew.

The promise to Abraham is to his seed (singular). That seed is Christ. Those that are one with Christ are one with that inheritance of the promise. I don't think you disagree with that.
The point of talking about "Not all of Israel are Israel" isn't just to point out that the inheritance went down the line of one son, it is also to highlight the fact that the promise is not intended for every descendant. And in fact, the promise was for a singular seed.

God's promise to Abraham was to ALL Nations = Galatians chapter 3

The Specific Promise thru One Child is CHRIST.

For you are all sons of God through faith in Christ Jesus. For as many of you as were baptized into Christ have put on Christ.
There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither slave nor free, there is neither male nor female; for you are all one in Christ Jesus.
And if you are Christ’s, then you are Abraham’s seed, and heirs according to the promise.

Revelation has some literal and symbolism interwoven throughout.
Revelation ch7 and ch14 that speak of the 144k is symbolic.

when you and him state Gods promise to Abraham, Isaac, Jacob and his 12 sons and their families as an eternal promise is no longer valid. You call him a liar.

When you say the 144000 are not from Israel. You call the angel who told John to write that number down, and God, who gave him the message, liars.

Lets just stick with that why don't we

When Jesus returns at the Second Advent, all living believers will be "gathered up" to meet all the dead saints in the air/clouds, and

So of ALL the numbers in the book of Revelation, only 144,000 is symbolic, is that right?



Okay, bare with me. Lets compare the 144,000 and the Great Multitude with the wise and foolish virgins in Matthew 25. There are two groups shown in Matthew chapter 25:1-13, similar to the two groups of Christians depicted in Revelation chapter 7.

There are some very familiar symbols in the Matthew description, which makes it easier to interpret who is being described and provide a good starting place to consider these two groups of Christians. First we have ten virgins with lamps in Matthew. The use of virgins as a symbol (2 Cor. 11:2) corresponds to those who’ve dedicated their life to Jesus the bridegroom (Revelation 19:7), and the number ten signifies that these virgins represent the sum total of all of the virgins. However, the virgins are divided into two groups – wise virgins and foolish virgins.

All the virgins have lamps representing the word of God (Psalm 119:105, 2 Peter 1:19) and all of them are awakened by the announcement of the bridegroom’s presence outside the door (cf. Revelation 3:20). However, the foolish virgins have brought insufficient oil with them for their lamps. The oil is the Holy Spirit (Isaiah 6:1-3, 2 Cor. 1:21-22) and evidently the foolish virgins lack the same spirit of commitment as the wise virgins.

Matthew places this parable in the same context with signs (Matthew chapter 24) and with other parables (Matthew chapter 25) of Christ’s return. That is the sense of this parable, also, for all of the virgins are waiting for the bridegroom to return.

The foolish virgins experience difficulties when the bridegroom arrives at the house at the stroke of midnight (cf. Song of Solomon 5:2-7). Their lamps are sputtering from a lack of oil, which suggests they are having difficulty understanding everything happening at the time. They go to get more oil in the marketplace (the parallel in Revelation seven would be the great multitude going out into the great tribulation). While they are gone the bridegroom takes the wise virgins to the wedding feast and the door is closed to the foolish virgins.

Note that throughout the parable they never cease to be virgins. They are genuinely loyal to Christ, but seem to lack the same degree or spirit (oil) of zeal and commitment that the wise virgins manifest, and they are shut out from going in to the wedding. So this parable suggests something different from the traditional view of the church… the understanding that all Christians are members of the bride of Christ. In the case of the parable of the wise and foolish virgins, there are two “classes” of Christians… and not all of them are part of the bride and the wedding.

So how do we account for these foolish virgins? Is the entire explanation for the existence of this group based solely on this parable? Consider some other examples from the scriptures –

• In Psalm 45 we have also a description of a wedding feast for the king’s daughter. In verse 14 we read “she will be led to the king in embroidered work; the virgins her companions who follow her shall be brought to you.” The Psalm is rich with metaphor, and if the bride is the wise virgins of the parable in Matthew, then who do the “virgins her companions who follow her” represent if not the foolish virgins?
• In 1 Corinthians 3:14 and 15 we have an example of two individuals that build on the foundation of Jesus Christ (verse 11). One of these individuals builds with quality materials and the other builds with inferior materials. The one who builds with quality materials receives a reward. The one who builds with inferior materials has their work destroyed, but they are still saved… although through the fire of trials (1 Peter 4:12).

These passages bear a striking similarity to the parable of the wise and foolish virgins in Matthew chapter 25 and the great multitude in Revelation chapter seven – in Psalm 45 we have the bride and then her virgin companions who are not the bride. In 1 Corinthians chapter 3 we have those who are rewarded as opposed to those who seem to be barely saved from destruction (1 Cor. 3:17).

Let’s compare what we’ve just considered with Revelation chapter seven and see if we can draw similar conclusions on this subject. In Revelation chapter 7, the 144,000 are described as selected from the twelve tribes of Israel. Throughout the book of Revelation, the Israel described within its pages does not seem to represent the literal nation of Israel, but rather spiritual Israel or the church (cf. Romans 2:28-29, 9:6-8, Galatians 6:16, Philippians 3:3, 135 Colossians 2:11, Revelation 2:9). As in other places throughout Revelation, it makes much more sense to interpret the tribes in chapter seven as spiritual Israel.

As in Matthew chapter 25, there are two groups of people described in the chapter. In Revelation chapter seven they are described as the 144,000 (7:1-8) and the great multitude (7:9-17), and these two groups are readily distinguished from each other. In one instance the group has a specific number (the 144,000), and this is contrasted with the great multitude that is a group “which no man could number.” The first group is sealed before the winds of trouble are loosed (verses 1-3) and the other group experiences “great tribulation” (verse 14).

In addition we have descriptions of the bride of Christ from elsewhere that differ significantly from the description of the great multitude in chapter seven. For example the bride of Christ is everywhere described as seated on thrones and reigning (Revelation 3:21, 20:4), while in this chapter the great multitude are described as ”before the throne” yet worshipping in God’s temple (verse 15). The bride of Christ is described as those “who have not soiled their garments; and they will walk with me in white, for they are worthy” (Revelation 3:4). In contrast the great multitude is described as those whose robes were soiled and they “have washed their robes and made them white in the blood of the Lamb” (verse 14).

The book of Revelation is not the only place where we have an example of those who need to have their robes washed. In the book of Jude we have a description of those who have not been completely faithful and who needed special repentance and cleansing. The book of Jude (verses 22-23) speaks of various examples of those who are straying in some way from the love of God (verse 21). It specifically makes mention of having mercy on those whose “garment [is] polluted [or “spotted”] by the flesh.”

This idea of cleansing from the actions of the flesh is elsewhere depicted in 1 Corinthians 5:5. Here we have the description of the unrepentant man whom the church had not confronted. Paul speaks of “the destruction of his flesh that his spirit may be saved in the day of the Lord Jesus.” Paul is dealing with a specific individual rather than discussing a representative group in this instance, and he does not judge this man’s ultimate destiny. However, the verse does convey the idea of repentance and forgiveness and cleansing from the flesh as the outcome of suffering (tribulation).

Of course, our description of the great multitude could be criticized in our so[1]called enlightened age for not being properly egalitarian. Yet the scriptures do not shy away from the concept of reward (2 John 1:8) or even differing rewards. For an example, take some to read and ponder the parable of the pounds in Luke 19:11-27.

The problem with our perception here seems to be twofold.

1. There is a lack of humility on our part. The idea of accepting your place in the world (Luke 14:7-11) is a lost principle in our society and to a large extent in the Christian church. We tend to place ourselves at the center of our world. Christians in the past were much more inclined to see themselves as parts of a larger whole. They were more likely to see themselves as essential parts of a community that was greater than their individual importance.
2. We have a tendency to accept a secular view that equates a person’s role with their value or worth. This is not a biblical concept. The bible makes a clear distinction between someone’s position and whether that person is valued as an important part of the community. Take some time to read and ponder another passage, this one regarding the body of Christ in 1 Cor. 12:4-26 (and on through 1 Cor. 13:7).

So then, maybe we should ask… if these foolish virgins, this great multitude, doesn’t receive the same reward as the bride of Christ… what do they get? From Revelation 7:15-17 “…and He who sits on the throne shall spread His tabernacle over them. They shall hunger no more, neither thirst anymore; neither shall the sun beat down on them, nor any heat; for the Lamb in the center of the throne shall be their shepherd, and shall guide them to springs of the waters of life; and God shall wipe every tear from their eyes.” Doesn’t sound like such a bad deal to me

So then, maybe we should ask… if these foolish virgins, this great multitude, doesn’t receive the same reward as the bride of Christ…

The text does NOT state that the "we which are ALIVE and remain unto" will be [the only ones] gathered up TO MEET all the dead saints in the air/clouds (as though, to where they'll already be located, ahead of the others). No.

It states, "the DEAD IN Christ shall rise first" (meaning, be bodily resurrected ['TO STAND AGAIN' (on the earth)] first), before then we'll all be "caught up / gathered up TOGETHER WITH [IN-UNION-WITH] THEM [snatched up at the SAME TIME that THEY will also be snatched up (G726 - harpagēsometha ] in the clouds TO [ALL of us TOGETHER, at ONCE] the meeting OF THE LORD in the air"...

The text does NOT state "to meet all the dead saints in the air/clouds" as though they arrived there before the others. NO.





[again, for the readers: the adverb must be attached to the verb... "caught up [/snatched up] together with them," meaning "snatched up at the same time that they will also be snatched up"]

Question: Can you help me understand from Scripture your mid-trib viewpoint?

There is no need to understand my mid tribulation belief.

I care nothing for discussion and endless speculation about end time events. I regard them to be a vanity. All such speculations produce nothing for believers. Indeed it could be argued that eschatological doctrines have done as much to harm the flocks as any other heretical determination has done. It could be claimed that many believers are deluded into thinking that end time knowledge is an evidence of being spiritually minded, and so there is no immediate reason to be concerned - even when it is self-evident that we may be living selfish lives with little or no fruit of the Spirit. By making the signs of the times a focus we have missed our own conduct.

The text does NOT state that the "we which are ALIVE and remain unto" will be [the only ones] gathered up TO MEET all the dead saints in the air/clouds (as though, to where they'll already be located, ahead of the others). No.

It states, "the DEAD IN Christ shall rise first" (meaning, be bodily resurrected ['TO STAND AGAIN' (on the earth)] first), before then we'll all be "caught up / gathered up TOGETHER WITH [IN-UNION-WITH] THEM [snatched up at the SAME TIME that THEY will also be snatched up (G726 - harpagēsometha ] in the clouds TO [ALL of us TOGETHER, at ONCE] the meeting OF THE LORD in the air"...

The text does NOT state "to meet all the dead saints in the air/clouds" as though they arrived there before the others. NO.

[again, for the readers: the adverb must be attached to the verb... "caught up [/snatched up] together with them," meaning "snatched up at the same time that they will also be snatched up"]

There is no need to understand my mid tribulation belief.

I care nothing for discussion and endless speculation about end time events. I regard them to be a vanity. All such speculations produce nothing for believers.

It could be claimed that many believers are deluded into thinking that end time knowledge is an evidence of being spiritually minded

Do you disagree that the living believers will meet all the dead saints in the air/clouds when Jesus returns WITH the dead saints?

I always go with what the Bible SAYS.

I don't go with what the Bible NEVER says.

i don't quite get your stand.

Is it a pivotal point if there is 15 seconds separating the gathering?

Concerning a particular promise made to one nation and you claiming it was not valid anymore

when you and him state Gods promise to Abraham, Isaac, Jacob and his 12 sons and their families as an eternal promise is no longer valid.

Concerning the 144000 Not being children of Israel

I am not afraid of posting posts. It is just time consuming, But if you want to act like I can't defend what I say. I will throw it back to you.

You both did what I said, and you did. It is you who are falsly accusing others those of us who are calling you out on this.

The text does NOT state this.

And plz note that I am zeroing in on, to address, the part I underlined of your post.
Instead, the text states, "caught up TOGETHER [/ AT THE SAME TIME] WITH them..."

It's not as though the promise was made in vain, the promise just wasn't for anyone but Christ (and those in Christ).

Can you show a passage where it states that the promise was made to "the nation of Israel" instead of simply to "Israel"? My criticism is about who the promise applies to which Rom 9 and Gal 3 are very clear about that.

After you changed your claim from "you claimed God lied", this was one of the claim you made:

No one claimed that the promise was no longer valid, only that He whom the promise applied to didn't match what modern Jews may claim. Therefore your accusation is untrue. First you claimed others were "calling God a liar", then when you were challenged to prove your claim, you shifted your claim to "you're claiming God's claim is no longer valid", and when challenged on that, the closest thing you could present was where a user made a case based in scripture that the promise did not apply to who you might think. There was nothing stated about ceased validity.

I beleive it is a fair assessment that you have wilfully misrepresented other users views for the purpose of attacking the people instead of the ideas. Based on that observation, I am asking you to stop.

The interpretation that Revelation contains figurative language is not a claim that God lied pursuant to your earlier accusation.



You have yet to defend what you said.



I think you need to take a breather and think this one over.

Proving what?