Is the first resurrection divided into two groups?

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Mar 4, 2020
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#21
If you back up to rev 19, the beast that causes to (worship satan by) take the mark (of the beast) is cast into the lake of fire along with the false prophet, and then rev 20 satan is bound. Who's doling out the mark at this point?
It is my humble opinion that the system that was dolling out the official mark would have collapsed by this point.
 

Pilgrimshope

Well-known member
Sep 2, 2020
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#22
I believe the 1000-year reign of Christ is a literal physical-presence-on-earth period of time that will begin at the Second Coming of Christ.

It will be post-trib.

It will be post-Two-Witnesses.
well do you believe it’s in Jerusalem on mount sion ?

“but ye are come unto mount Sion, and unto the city of the living God, the heavenly Jerusalem, and to an innumerable company of angels, to the general assembly and church of the firstborn, which are written in heaven, and to God the Judge of all, and to the spirits of just men made perfect,”
‭‭Hebrews‬ ‭12:22-23‬ ‭KJV‬‬

notice that the so called millennium reign happens before this does ?

“And I saw a new heaven and a new earth: for the first heaven and the first earth were passed away; and there was no more sea. And I John saw the holy city, new Jerusalem, coming down from God out of heaven, prepared as a bride adorned for her husband.”
‭‭Revelation‬ ‭21:1-2‬ ‭KJV‬‬

So wouldnt it be worth considering that there is a heavenly Jerusalem where the kingdom is established ?

Simultaneous to the earthly Jerusalem which is in bondage and spiritual desolation ?

but that’s all I really have to say for consideration God bless
 

Pilgrimshope

Well-known member
Sep 2, 2020
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#23
Who humbleth himself to behold the things that are in heaven,

and in the earth!”

‭‭Psalm‬ ‭113:6‬ ‭

“If ye then be risen with Christ, seek those things which are above, where Christ sitteth on the right hand of God. Set your affection on things above,

not on things on the earth.”
‭‭Colossians‬ ‭3:1-2‬ ‭KJV‬‬

“but ye are come unto mount Sion, and unto the city of the living God, the heavenly Jerusalem, and to an innumerable company of angels, to the general assembly and church of the firstborn, which are written in heaven, and to God the Judge of all, and to the spirits of just men made perfect, and to Jesus the mediator of the new covenant, and to the blood of sprinkling, that speaketh better things than that of Abel.”
‭‭Hebrews‬ ‭12:22-24‬ ‭KJV‬‬


“After this I looked, and, behold, a door was opened in heaven: and the first voice which I heard was as it were of a trumpet talking with me; which said, Come up hither, and I will shew thee things which must be hereafter. And immediately I was in the spirit: and, behold, a throne was set in heaven, and one sat on the throne.”
‭‭Revelation‬ ‭4:1-2‬ ‭

“And I heard the number of them which were sealed: and there were sealed an hundred and forty and four thousand of all the tribes of the children of Israel.”
‭‭Revelation‬ ‭7:4‬ ‭KJV‬‬

“And I looked, and, lo, a Lamb stood on the mount Sion, and with him an hundred forty and four thousand, having his Father's name written in their foreheads.”
‭‭Revelation‬ ‭14:1‬ ‭KJV‬

“After this I beheld, and, lo, a great multitude, which no man could number, of all nations, and kindreds, and people, and tongues, stood before the throne, and before the Lamb, clothed with white robes, and palms in their hands; and cried with a loud voice, saying, Salvation to our God which sitteth upon the throne, and unto the Lamb.

And all the angels stood round about the throne, and about the elders and the four beasts, and fell before the throne on their faces, and worshipped God, saying, Amen: Blessing, and glory, and wisdom, and thanksgiving, and honour, and power, and might, be unto our God for ever and ever. Amen.”
‭‭Revelation‬ ‭7:9-12‬ ‭KJV‬‬

“And I heard a loud voice saying in heaven, Now is come salvation, and strength, and the kingdom of our God, and the power of his Christ: for the accuser of our brethren is cast down, which accused them before our God day and night. And they overcame him by the blood of the Lamb, and by the word of their testimony; and they loved not their lives unto the death. Therefore rejoice, ye heavens, and ye that dwell in them.

Woe to the inhabiters of the earth and of the sea! for the devil is come down unto you, having great wrath, because he knoweth that he hath but a short time.”
‭‭Revelation‬ ‭12:10-12‬ ‭KJV‬‬

it seems as if there is a reign Happening in heaven while the earth is continuing on in a different state.

revelation remember happens when John is taken up to see things in heaven and also things that are happening in earth simultaneously even corresponding the thkngs in heaven , lead to the things on earth later. Even Jerusalem In heaven eventually comes to earth after the reign of 1000 years happens

“And I saw a new heaven and a new earth: for the first heaven and the first earth were passed away; and there was no more sea. And I John saw the holy city, new Jerusalem, coming down from God out of heaven, prepared as a bride adorned for her husband.”
‭‭Revelation‬ ‭21:1-2‬ ‭KJV‬‬

if the Riefn is Happening in Gods holy city upon mount sion where Christ is on the throne in the heavenly Jerusalem accompanied by angels and spirits of men made perfect it seems as if it may be worth considering it’s in heaven.

Where the kingdom has come and the power of Christ is enthroned and salvation is known and the jnhabitors have overcome Satans accusations by the blood of the lamb and word of thier testimony

just a thought
 
Mar 4, 2020
8,614
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#24
Who humbleth himself to behold the things that are in heaven,

and in the earth!”

‭‭Psalm‬ ‭113:6‬ ‭

“If ye then be risen with Christ, seek those things which are above, where Christ sitteth on the right hand of God. Set your affection on things above,

not on things on the earth.”
‭‭Colossians‬ ‭3:1-2‬ ‭KJV‬‬

“but ye are come unto mount Sion, and unto the city of the living God, the heavenly Jerusalem, and to an innumerable company of angels, to the general assembly and church of the firstborn, which are written in heaven, and to God the Judge of all, and to the spirits of just men made perfect, and to Jesus the mediator of the new covenant, and to the blood of sprinkling, that speaketh better things than that of Abel.”
‭‭Hebrews‬ ‭12:22-24‬ ‭KJV‬‬


“After this I looked, and, behold, a door was opened in heaven: and the first voice which I heard was as it were of a trumpet talking with me; which said, Come up hither, and I will shew thee things which must be hereafter. And immediately I was in the spirit: and, behold, a throne was set in heaven, and one sat on the throne.”
‭‭Revelation‬ ‭4:1-2‬ ‭

“And I heard the number of them which were sealed: and there were sealed an hundred and forty and four thousand of all the tribes of the children of Israel.”
‭‭Revelation‬ ‭7:4‬ ‭KJV‬‬

“And I looked, and, lo, a Lamb stood on the mount Sion, and with him an hundred forty and four thousand, having his Father's name written in their foreheads.”
‭‭Revelation‬ ‭14:1‬ ‭KJV‬

“After this I beheld, and, lo, a great multitude, which no man could number, of all nations, and kindreds, and people, and tongues, stood before the throne, and before the Lamb, clothed with white robes, and palms in their hands; and cried with a loud voice, saying, Salvation to our God which sitteth upon the throne, and unto the Lamb.

And all the angels stood round about the throne, and about the elders and the four beasts, and fell before the throne on their faces, and worshipped God, saying, Amen: Blessing, and glory, and wisdom, and thanksgiving, and honour, and power, and might, be unto our God for ever and ever. Amen.”
‭‭Revelation‬ ‭7:9-12‬ ‭KJV‬‬

“And I heard a loud voice saying in heaven, Now is come salvation, and strength, and the kingdom of our God, and the power of his Christ: for the accuser of our brethren is cast down, which accused them before our God day and night. And they overcame him by the blood of the Lamb, and by the word of their testimony; and they loved not their lives unto the death. Therefore rejoice, ye heavens, and ye that dwell in them.

Woe to the inhabiters of the earth and of the sea! for the devil is come down unto you, having great wrath, because he knoweth that he hath but a short time.”
‭‭Revelation‬ ‭12:10-12‬ ‭KJV‬‬

it seems as if there is a reign Happening in heaven while the earth is continuing on in a different state.

revelation remember happens when John is taken up to see things in heaven and also things that are happening in earth simultaneously even corresponding the thkngs in heaven , lead to the things on earth later. Even Jerusalem In heaven eventually comes to earth after the reign of 1000 years happens

“And I saw a new heaven and a new earth: for the first heaven and the first earth were passed away; and there was no more sea. And I John saw the holy city, new Jerusalem, coming down from God out of heaven, prepared as a bride adorned for her husband.”
‭‭Revelation‬ ‭21:1-2‬ ‭KJV‬‬

if the Riefn is Happening in Gods holy city upon mount sion where Christ is on the throne in the heavenly Jerusalem accompanied by angels and spirits of men made perfect it seems as if it may be worth considering it’s in heaven.

Where the kingdom has come and the power of Christ is enthroned and salvation is known and the jnhabitors have overcome Satans accusations by the blood of the lamb and word of thier testimony

just a thought
Yes I have heard of this interpretation, or a flavor of this interpretation, where the MK is spiritualized and there seems evidence to support that, too, as you just pointed out.

There also seems like there is good evidence that the MK is on earth and there are good reasons to say it’s on Earth as well. One of the most compelling reasons is that Gog and Magog are assembled after 1,000 years from all around the earth and are brought to war against the inhabitants of the Holy City per Revelation 20:7-8.

Jesus came and preached the gospel of the kingdom like Mark 1:14-15 says, and there a lot of other verses about this. Do you see that Jesus talked about His MK frequently?

So is it possible the MK will happen on Earth and in Heaven at the same time? It’s worth considering these verses:

Matthew 6:10
10Thy kingdom come. Thy will be done in earth, as it is in heaven.

Jesus prayed for God’s will to be done on earth as it is in heaven. So is it possible Jesus meant that whatever God does in earth can possibly be a reflection of what is in heaven?

Remember, what Moses said:

Hebrews 8:4-5
4For if he were on earth, he should not be a priest, seeing that there are priests that offer gifts according to the law: 5Who serve unto the example and shadow of heavenly things, as Moses was admonished of God when he was about to make the tabernacle: for, See, saith he, thatthou make all things according to the pattern shewed to thee in the mount.

If the tabernacle was a copy of something in heaven, if the ark of the covenant is a copy of something in heaven, then maybe the millennial kingdom is also a copy of something in heaven?

John saw the temple and ark of the covenant in his vision of heaven:

Revelation 11:19
19And the temple of God was opened in heaven, and there was seen in his temple the ark of his testament: and there were lightnings, and voices, and thunderings, and an earthquake, and great hail.

Just something to think about.
 

oyster67

Senior Member
May 24, 2014
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#25
Is the first resurrection divided into two groups?


Sure. It is the Rapture of the 1.) dead in Christ, and the 2.) quick in Christ.
One event consisting of two groups, and it occurs before the 7-year tribulation down on Earth.
 
Mar 4, 2020
8,614
3,680
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#26
Is the first resurrection divided into two groups?


Sure. It is the Rapture of the 1.) dead in Christ, and the 2.) quick in Christ.
One event consisting of two groups, and it occurs before the 7-year tribulation down on Earth.
Hi Oyster. As always, thank you for sharing your perspective.

Can we take a moment to define who the living and dead are in Christ? Because even those who are dead in Christ are actually alive and the living in Christ can be dead.

Do you agree that the dead in Christ are not resurrected and the living in Christ are resurrected? I get this belief from 1 Thessalonians 4:13-18 and Revelation 20:4-6.
 

Pilgrimshope

Well-known member
Sep 2, 2020
13,071
5,240
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#27
Yes I have heard of this interpretation, or a flavor of this interpretation, where the MK is spiritualized and there seems evidence to support that, too, as you just pointed out.

There also seems like there is good evidence that the MK is on earth and there are good reasons to say it’s on Earth as well. One of the most compelling reasons is that Gog and Magog are assembled after 1,000 years from all around the earth and are brought to war against the inhabitants of the Holy City per Revelation 20:7-8.

Jesus came and preached the gospel of the kingdom like Mark 1:14-15 says, and there a lot of other verses about this. Do you see that Jesus talked about His MK frequently?

So is it possible the MK will happen on Earth and in Heaven at the same time? It’s worth considering these verses:

Matthew 6:10
10Thy kingdom come. Thy will be done in earth, as it is in heaven.

Jesus prayed for God’s will to be done on earth as it is in heaven. So is it possible Jesus meant that whatever God does in earth can possibly be a reflection of what is in heaven?

Remember, what Moses said:

Hebrews 8:4-5
4For if he were on earth, he should not be a priest, seeing that there are priests that offer gifts according to the law: 5Who serve unto the example and shadow of heavenly things, as Moses was admonished of God when he was about to make the tabernacle: for, See, saith he, thatthou make all things according to the pattern shewed to thee in the mount.

If the tabernacle was a copy of something in heaven, if the ark of the covenant is a copy of something in heaven, then maybe the millennial kingdom is also a copy of something in heaven?

John saw the temple and ark of the covenant in his vision of heaven:

Revelation 11:19
19And the temple of God was opened in heaven, and there was seen in his temple the ark of his testament: and there were lightnings, and voices, and thunderings, and an earthquake, and great hail.

Just something to think about.
yep definately always worth considering revelation is a book that ten people look at and find four or five different views of it.

I look at it sort of like “ let it be done on earth as it is in heaven “ one quick example

As it is in heaven
“And there was war in heaven: Michael and his angels fought against the dragon; and the dragon fought and his angels,”
‭‭Revelation‬ ‭12:7‬ ‭

Be done on earth

“And the dragon was wroth with the woman, and went to make war with the remnant of her seed, which keep the commandments of God, and have the testimony of Jesus Christ.”
‭‭Revelation‬ ‭12:17‬ ‭KJV‬‬


I’m not claiming to be right just saying it’s worth considering like you are saying
 

oyster67

Senior Member
May 24, 2014
11,887
8,705
113
#28
Do you agree that the dead in Christ are not resurrected and the living in Christ are resurrected? I get this belief from 1 Thessalonians 4:13-18 and Revelation 20:4-6.
Thessalonians says that physically dead Christians and physically alive Christians will be taken in the same Rapture event.

More beheaded Christians may be taken up later? I believe they are mentioned as being there (in Heaven) in Revelations.
 

Blain

The Word Weaver
Aug 28, 2012
19,212
2,547
113
#29
Revelation 20:4-5 KJV
4And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years. 5But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection.

I don’t see many people point this out, but it seems to be really important. Let me show you what I am seeing in Revelation 20:4-6, specifically. I bolded some of the text above.

1. Saints or church members who are martyred during the great tribulation period for their refusal to worship the beast or take his mark are resurrected and reign with Christ 1,000 years.

2. The rest of the dead did not come to life until after the 1,000 years were compete. Meaning they remained a disembodied soul during the 1,000 year reign of Christ.

In conclusion, what I see is that the first resurrection actually has two groups. The first group is martyred saints from the great tribulation who came to life for 1,000 years. The second group is all of the others saints who didn’t come to life until after 1,000 years.

Thanks for reading this.
Good observation I also want to note it doesn't actually say the second group are saints it gives a great description of the first group but next to nothing about the second
 

oyster67

Senior Member
May 24, 2014
11,887
8,705
113
#30
Good observation I also want to note it doesn't actually say the second group are saints it gives a great description of the first group but next to nothing about the second
First group = Raptured + Beheaded Saints.
Second group= The Damned who await the White Throne Judgement.

The second group are not Saints. They are the Damned. They await the Second Resurrection (aka the Great White Throne Judgement).

Revelation
20:4 And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and [I saw] the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received [his] mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years.
20:5 But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. This [is] the first resurrection.
20:6 Blessed and holy [is] he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years.
20:11 And I saw a great white throne, and him that sat on it, from whose face the earth and the heaven fled away; and there was found no place for them.
20:12 And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is [the book] of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works.
20:13 And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works.
20:14 And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death.
20:15 And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire.
 
Mar 4, 2020
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#31
First group = Raptured + Beheaded Saints.
Second group= The Damned who await the White Throne Judgement.

The second group are not Saints. They are the Damned. They await the Second Resurrection (aka the Great White Throne Judgement).

Revelation
20:4 And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and [I saw] the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received [his] mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years.
20:5 But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. This [is] the first resurrection.
20:6 Blessed and holy [is] he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years.
20:11 And I saw a great white throne, and him that sat on it, from whose face the earth and the heaven fled away; and there was found no place for them.
20:12 And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is [the book] of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works.
20:13 And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works.
20:14 And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death.
20:15 And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire.
What I see is that the first resurrection are those those beheaded saints for the first 1,000 years then after 1,000 years it's the rest of the dead [in Christ.] So the second group can't include the damned because the second death doesn't have power over them.

Those who go to the second death, by inference, would be those in the second resurrection. Even though it doesn't say "second resurrection", two is the next number after one, so that's where the idea of the second resurrection comes from.
 

Blain

The Word Weaver
Aug 28, 2012
19,212
2,547
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#32
First group = Raptured + Beheaded Saints.
Second group= The Damned who await the White Throne Judgement.

The second group are not Saints. They are the Damned. They await the Second Resurrection (aka the Great White Throne Judgement).

Revelation
20:4 And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and [I saw] the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received [his] mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years.
20:5 But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. This [is] the first resurrection.
20:6 Blessed and holy [is] he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years.
20:11 And I saw a great white throne, and him that sat on it, from whose face the earth and the heaven fled away; and there was found no place for them.
20:12 And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is [the book] of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works.
20:13 And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works.
20:14 And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death.
20:15 And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire.
Yes thank you for that see normally I have to read everything all at once like this to get the full picture due to my memory issues since I have trouble memorizing scripture had I just read that verse as it was I would have lost the entire passage.
 
Mar 4, 2020
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#33
Good observation I also want to note it doesn't actually say the second group are saints it gives a great description of the first group but next to nothing about the second
True, but it does say the second death doesn't have any power over those in the first resurrection so the second group must be Christians too. The main difference is they are not martyred in the great tribulation. I see the resurrection to reign with Christ for 1,000 years as a kind of bonus or special reward.
 

Blain

The Word Weaver
Aug 28, 2012
19,212
2,547
113
#34
What I see is that the first resurrection are those those beheaded saints for the first 1,000 years then after 1,000 years it's the rest of the dead [in Christ.] So the second group can't include the damned because the second death doesn't have power over them.

Those who go to the second death, by inference, would be those in the second resurrection. Even though it doesn't say "second resurrection", two is the next number after one, so that's where the idea of the second resurrection comes from.
But without the scriptures saying who they are we have to look at the scriptures that surround them and I do kind of see what your saying but at the same we have the issue of the verses explaining further on about these people don't we?
 

GaryA

Truth, Honesty, Love, Courage
Aug 10, 2019
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#35
Whatever number of 'groups' you may be inclined to separate those who are a part of the first resurrection into - they are all saints.

All in the first resurrection are saints.
 
Mar 4, 2020
8,614
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#36
Whatever number of 'groups' you may be inclined to separate those who are a part of the first resurrection into - they are all saints.

All in the first resurrection are saints.
totally agreed. They are definitely all saints in the first resurrection.
 

GaryA

Truth, Honesty, Love, Courage
Aug 10, 2019
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#38
Don't conflate 'second death' and 'second resurrection'.
 

GaryA

Truth, Honesty, Love, Courage
Aug 10, 2019
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#39
Apparently, you created confusion in the OP itself by mixing [up] the terms 'group' and 'resurrection'.
 
Mar 4, 2020
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#40
Apparently, you created confusion in the OP itself by mixing [up] the terms 'group' and 'resurrection'.
Hmm no I don't think so. There are two groups that are resurrected at different times. One group is just before or immediately at the beginning of the millennium and one is after the millennium and they're all saints. That's exactly what the OP says. Where did you see I am mixing up terms? If I did that then I didn't mean to, but please show me where I did that.