I had to come back to add to that thought before leaving for the day, that, traditionally, woman weren't commonly included in the conversation among scholars. I am familiar with the reasons why and do not necessarily agree which, of course, may be attributed to my bias as a woman, that is if it is not actually a valid disagreement. However, this cchat, many of the gentlemen, and ladies, that oft post here, have displayed to me as close as it comes to harmony restored to Eden, this side of heaven. This may not be much but, precious to me just the same. Muahh! God bless and keep you always.
Is the first resurrection divided into two groups?
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It isn’t explicitly stated there are multiple resurrections of the saved, but it’s certainty implied in Daniel 12:2 and Matthew 27:52-53. Furthmore, Revelation 20:5 just plainly calls the post-millennium resurrection the first resurrection.
My last few posts exposes the contradictions caused by making Revelation 20:5 a resurrection of unbelievers. Such as requiring multiple second resurrection groups and even a third death.
At least there are no apparent contradictions in making Revelation 20:5 a resurrection of saints. I haven’t found any.
My last few posts exposes the contradictions caused by making Revelation 20:5 a resurrection of unbelievers. Such as requiring multiple second resurrection groups and even a third death.
At least there are no apparent contradictions in making Revelation 20:5 a resurrection of saints. I haven’t found any.
Personally I am not very traditional and find their sort of thinking incorrect. Actually, my default position is that most of what the mainstream church teaches is false. There’s too many denominations and that’s a problem for me. I’d rather go my own way, do the hard leg work that relatively few in the world want to do, and really dig into the Bible until I discover the truth.
On this path I lose friends, attract a lot of name calling and condemnation, but in the end I’ll stand before God knowing that I did everything I could do while mostly everyone else blindly followed, not doing their due diligence to be a Berean.
I’m not talking about any of us here. Actually we’re among the most serious Bible scholars in the world in my personal opinion, maybe even more so then students in seminary. Sure we disagree but we’re all in the Word daily sharpening our iron.
I don’t see gender anyway I just see we are all one in Christ like Galatians 3:28 says and I’m happy to Bible-discuss with you any time.
Sorry, I’m off my soap box now. Lol. I think we all have our moments.
On this path I lose friends, attract a lot of name calling and condemnation, but in the end I’ll stand before God knowing that I did everything I could do while mostly everyone else blindly followed, not doing their due diligence to be a Berean.
I’m not talking about any of us here. Actually we’re among the most serious Bible scholars in the world in my personal opinion, maybe even more so then students in seminary. Sure we disagree but we’re all in the Word daily sharpening our iron.
I don’t see gender anyway I just see we are all one in Christ like Galatians 3:28 says and I’m happy to Bible-discuss with you any time.
Sorry, I’m off my soap box now. Lol. I think we all have our moments.
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The Bible says there are 2 resurrections total; one for the saved and one for the unsaved.
Acts 24:15 - and I have the same hope in God as these men themselves have, that there will be a resurrection of both the righteous and the wicked.
So the single resurrection of the saved is at the Second Advent, which is the FIRST of the 2 resurrections total.
That is not my view though.
Since Acts 24:15 says 1 resurrection each, the ONE resurrection for the saved occurs at the Second Advent (1 Cor 15:23, 2 Thess 2:1) and the ONE resurrection for the unsaved occurs for the GWT judgment. Bingo! No contradiction.
1 Cor 15:23 contradicts any resurrection that isn't "when He comes". And there is no such verse showing that Jesus will come back a 3rd time, since the 2 resurrections of Rev 20:5 are 1,000 years apart.
Where do you place the resurrection of the unsaved on the timeline of history?
Acts 24:15 - and I have the same hope in God as these men themselves have, that there will be a resurrection of both the righteous and the wicked.
So the single resurrection of the saved is at the Second Advent, which is the FIRST of the 2 resurrections total.
That is not my view though.
Since Acts 24:15 says 1 resurrection each, the ONE resurrection for the saved occurs at the Second Advent (1 Cor 15:23, 2 Thess 2:1) and the ONE resurrection for the unsaved occurs for the GWT judgment. Bingo! No contradiction.
1 Cor 15:23 contradicts any resurrection that isn't "when He comes". And there is no such verse showing that Jesus will come back a 3rd time, since the 2 resurrections of Rev 20:5 are 1,000 years apart.
Where do you place the resurrection of the unsaved on the timeline of history?
if you think of revelation , we read of a lamb with seven eyes that’s been slain , but we know it’s an image or figure representing Jesus who sent the Holy Spirit . We read of a giant beast rising up from the sea , with seven heads and ten horns but understand it’s a figure or image representing 18 kings some from johns past , one in johns present , and still 12 more which would later rise up.
we read descriptions of a vision John was shown but it always represents something else. Another beast that looks like a lamb but speaks as a dragon , the spirits of frogs coming out of certain mouths , locusts coming out of an abyss ect
my point is if the book of revelation is structured this way , why would the numbers then become literal measures of time ? And not themselves be representing something else ?
“But, beloved, be not ignorant of this one thing, that one day is with the Lord as a thousand years, and a thousand years as one day.”
2 Peter 3:8 KJV
God isn’t on any particular time table , the measures of time in revelation should be in my opinion taken as the rest of it shows itself to be. A heavenly vision from Gods perspective.
I think revelation is one of those things where some take it literal others see the visions as coming from heavens perspective understanding it’s imagery to have deep meaning king but not be speaking from mans perspective , but form Gods.
we read descriptions of a vision John was shown but it always represents something else. Another beast that looks like a lamb but speaks as a dragon , the spirits of frogs coming out of certain mouths , locusts coming out of an abyss ect
my point is if the book of revelation is structured this way , why would the numbers then become literal measures of time ? And not themselves be representing something else ?
“But, beloved, be not ignorant of this one thing, that one day is with the Lord as a thousand years, and a thousand years as one day.”
2 Peter 3:8 KJV
God isn’t on any particular time table , the measures of time in revelation should be in my opinion taken as the rest of it shows itself to be. A heavenly vision from Gods perspective.
I think revelation is one of those things where some take it literal others see the visions as coming from heavens perspective understanding it’s imagery to have deep meaning king but not be speaking from mans perspective , but form Gods.
Thanks for quoting those verses and I see how they can be interpreted that way. I thought like that too for a long time. The more I read the Bible the more my views tend to change.
As far as I can tell the resurrection of the unsaved is after Gog and Magog, immediately before or suddenly at the great white throne according to Revelation 20:11-15, especially verse 13.
13And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works.
They go straight dead to resurrected then immediately to judgement. No talk of a 1,000 years followed by a big war.
i
As far as I can tell the resurrection of the unsaved is after Gog and Magog, immediately before or suddenly at the great white throne according to Revelation 20:11-15, especially verse 13.
13And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works.
They go straight dead to resurrected then immediately to judgement. No talk of a 1,000 years followed by a big war.
i
yes I wish I hadn’t been so busy when I was younger , I could have done a lot more in the kingdom than an old man can.
your in a good position if you remain in the light of his word. There’s a lot in the world that’s constantly trying to pull us away from what’s established forever. Again I wish I would have known at twenty what I know now but I suppose the Lord has been there all along and has worked out any good and any knowledge I have learned now.
I just regret being so busy with earthly matters in my youth and prime , I wish I could have heard this way back then but am thankful I finally got the message even now
“If ye then be risen with Christ, seek those things which are above, where Christ sitteth on the right hand of God. Set your affection on things above, not on things on the earth.”
Colossians 3:1-2 KJV
I suppose God has a plan for each of us and a perfect time to open our eyes and ears it sounds like your in a great position right now to do some good work ahead for many years to come.
one thing I’ve learned is to not let the ideas of the world pull us from what Jesus eternal And unchanging words have spoken that’s where all the life is. It just took me many years to hear and see it.
the lord is good though he’s preparing us for eternal Life , and not in this world but after we pass away from it or it passes away all Together.
God bless and keep You in his immutable And unchanging light that purifies
“Jesus Christ the same yesterday, and to day, and for ever.”
Hebrews 13:8 KJV
your in a good position if you remain in the light of his word. There’s a lot in the world that’s constantly trying to pull us away from what’s established forever. Again I wish I would have known at twenty what I know now but I suppose the Lord has been there all along and has worked out any good and any knowledge I have learned now.
I just regret being so busy with earthly matters in my youth and prime , I wish I could have heard this way back then but am thankful I finally got the message even now
“If ye then be risen with Christ, seek those things which are above, where Christ sitteth on the right hand of God. Set your affection on things above, not on things on the earth.”
Colossians 3:1-2 KJV
I suppose God has a plan for each of us and a perfect time to open our eyes and ears it sounds like your in a great position right now to do some good work ahead for many years to come.
one thing I’ve learned is to not let the ideas of the world pull us from what Jesus eternal And unchanging words have spoken that’s where all the life is. It just took me many years to hear and see it.
the lord is good though he’s preparing us for eternal Life , and not in this world but after we pass away from it or it passes away all Together.
God bless and keep You in his immutable And unchanging light that purifies
“Jesus Christ the same yesterday, and to day, and for ever.”
Hebrews 13:8 KJV
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You're welcome.
Exactly. That's why the "rest of the dead" refer to unbelievers. They are in the SECOND resurrection, for the GWT judgment.
Wait a sec. While reading through Rev 20, we know it begins right after the Second Advent and then the Millennium, which is 1,000 years, and then the last battle on earth, Gog and Magog. Immediately followed by the GWT judgment.
So, the FIRST resurrection, which occurs just after the Second Advent, is followed by the SECOND resurrection, which occurs just after the battle of Gog and Magog. That is 1,000 years between the 2 resurrections.
So, to be clear, all the unsaved will be physically dead by the end of the battle of Gog and Magog. THEN their resurrection, immediately followed by the GWT judgment.
So the unsaved aren't resurrected until ALL the unsaved are dead, which occurs when that last battle on earth is finished.
Rev 20-
7 When the thousand years are over, Satan will be released from his prison
8 and will go out to deceive the nations in the four corners of the earth—Gog and Magog—and to gather them for battle. In number they are like the sand on the seashore.
9 They marched across the breadth of the earth and surrounded the camp of God’s people, the city he loves. But fire came down from heaven and devoured them.
I believe v.9 records when all the unsaved that are left on the planet are devoured, which ends the battle. And then the resurrection of all the unsaved, for the GWT judgment.
Exactly. That's why the "rest of the dead" refer to unbelievers. They are in the SECOND resurrection, for the GWT judgment.
Wait a sec. While reading through Rev 20, we know it begins right after the Second Advent and then the Millennium, which is 1,000 years, and then the last battle on earth, Gog and Magog. Immediately followed by the GWT judgment.
So, the FIRST resurrection, which occurs just after the Second Advent, is followed by the SECOND resurrection, which occurs just after the battle of Gog and Magog. That is 1,000 years between the 2 resurrections.
So, to be clear, all the unsaved will be physically dead by the end of the battle of Gog and Magog. THEN their resurrection, immediately followed by the GWT judgment.
So the unsaved aren't resurrected until ALL the unsaved are dead, which occurs when that last battle on earth is finished.
Rev 20-
7 When the thousand years are over, Satan will be released from his prison
8 and will go out to deceive the nations in the four corners of the earth—Gog and Magog—and to gather them for battle. In number they are like the sand on the seashore.
9 They marched across the breadth of the earth and surrounded the camp of God’s people, the city he loves. But fire came down from heaven and devoured them.
I believe v.9 records when all the unsaved that are left on the planet are devoured, which ends the battle. And then the resurrection of all the unsaved, for the GWT judgment.
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Iron indeed.
I don't know if I can explain clearly how multiple second resurrection groups or even a third death isn't required...but I will try to explain it in my view.
All (that are His, believers) will be raised to eternal life, if dead, or changed to incorruptible if remaining alive at the time of Jesus' return to establish His millennial reign. The millennial reign is a period wherein a man that dies 100 years old is considered a babe, so death isn't as prevalent but neither has it yet been cast into the lake forever. And the rest of the dead, that already had been dead or died at the time of His wrath, will not live again until the end of the millennium, before the GWT. That 100 year old 'babe' that died during the millennium (his first death since he either was graced to survive wrath or was born within the thousand years but had not put on incorruptible since he death does exhibit power over him). So unbelievers having already died or die during the millenium did so because they were not clothed with incorruptible, or in other words 'not indestructible' as are those of the 'first resurrection.' Everyone then, albeit may enjoy a longer life during the millennial but still, if they die, has only died once up to the point of the 'second resurrection' of unbelievers who are not resurrected until the end of the millennium at the GTW, which only then results in their second death.
All (that are His, believers) will be raised to eternal life, if dead, or changed to incorruptible if remaining alive at the time of Jesus' return to establish His millennial reign. The millennial reign is a period wherein a man that dies 100 years old is considered a babe, so death isn't as prevalent but neither has it yet been cast into the lake forever. And the rest of the dead, that already had been dead or died at the time of His wrath, will not live again until the end of the millennium, before the GWT. That 100 year old 'babe' that died during the millennium (his first death since he either was graced to survive wrath or was born within the thousand years but had not put on incorruptible since he death does exhibit power over him). So unbelievers having already died or die during the millenium did so because they were not clothed with incorruptible, or in other words 'not indestructible' as are those of the 'first resurrection.' Everyone then, albeit may enjoy a longer life during the millennial but still, if they die, has only died once up to the point of the 'second resurrection' of unbelievers who are not resurrected until the end of the millennium at the GTW, which only then results in their second death.
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I agree with that. As long as resurrected righteous never die again I think we're good, like Luke 20:34-36 says. The unrighteous die a single bodily death then later face a second death. I also believe that the second death is complete and utter destruction of the human soul, but that's an entirely different discussion for another thread.
So in Revelation 21:4, is God talking about the death of the wicked being a problem from the righteous?
4And God shall wipe away all tears from their eyes; and there shall be no more death, neither sorrow, nor crying, neither shall there be any more pain: for the former things are passed away.
So in Revelation 21:4, is God talking about the death of the wicked being a problem from the righteous?
4And God shall wipe away all tears from their eyes; and there shall be no more death, neither sorrow, nor crying, neither shall there be any more pain: for the former things are passed away.
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