Any Post or Non-Tribbers in Here?

I totally agree with you saint and yes God does protect his saints. Now can you show me where this is in revelation.?
None of the scriptue after the 4th chapter talks about the church untill far later.
People trying to hide and flee to the mountains hide in the rocks. The slaughter of thousands. Where does is say but the faithful were protected by the Lord. Some what like the hebrews in egypt were passed over.

I dont know about you friend but Jesus took the wrath of God for me upon calvary praise his Holy name.
Therfore i am not appointed to the wrath which is to come.
Shall the Christ be crucified again? God forbid.

Is that what restrains. What surpresses evil?

We are not appointed to wrath but we will endure great tribulation.
God's wrath does not come until after the seventh trump gathering of the saints and then the seven bowels of His wrath is poured out.

I apologize, I’m no student of Greek or the original text… all I have is Google.

https://www.bibletools.org/index.cfm/fuseaction/Lexicon.show/ID/G726/harpazo.htm

http://web.oru.edu/current_students...MA(Th) Thesis.CH-2f Harpazo in NTPassages.pdf

Hope this helps.

Is this statement by the LORD directed at people under God's wrath?

"Then they will deliver you up to tribulation and kill you, and you will be hated by all nations for My name’s sake."

Thank you saint....😉😉😉😉

If that's the main reason you are pre-trib and you are still on the earth now, then how many more years can you stick to your eschatology, should Jesus tarry? If Jesus was born in 4 BC, then there isn' t much wiggle room.

Paul wrote to the Thessalonian believers that they were not appointed unto wrath but to obtain salvation through our Lord Jesus Christ. Pretribbers latch on 'wrath' and point out the word is used in Revelation.

Wrath has to do with anger. 'Wrath' is not a time period. The question I ask pre-tribbers is whether they think the saints mentioned in the book of Revelation are 'appointed unto wrath' instead of being appointing to obtain salvation through our Lord Jesus Christ. These saints are presented in a positive light. Revelation does not take a dig on them for not being ready for a pre-trib rapture. They overcome the Devil by the blood of the Lamb and the word of their testimony.

Why would someone think these saints are appointed unto wrath? Also, notice in the Old Testament a similar situation to what we see in the book of Revelation. God poured out plagues in Egypt. But did He rapture out the Israelites for a while to keep them from getting judgment poured on them? No. He knew how to aim.

Many pre-tribbers make much out of 'church' not being mentioned after the first few chapters of Revelation, claiming the church has been raptured in the later chapters. But if we look at I Thessalonians 1, the 'church' is here when Jesus comes back executing vengence on them that know not God who do not obey the Gospel. Pre-trib has Jesus rapture the church while the world experiences peace under the beast for a while.

It may be that John uses ekklesia for local congregations that actually gather and 'saints' for Christians throughout the world.

Yes, helpful - thank you.

Here is a direct quote from your link given - "harpazo is explicitly used as in 1 Thessalonians 4:17"

Do you believe the rapture is this? = 1 Thess 4:17
Then we who are alive and remain shall be caught up (harpazo) together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And thus we shall always be with the Lord.

Scripture says that, in order to enter the kingdom of heaven, the corruptible must put on incorruptible. There seems to be a prevailing mindset this is merely the body dying which then leaves only the indestructible soul, or spirit depending on the viewpoint, but then that dismisses that anything is actually 'put on' and instead shows only a 'shedding.' Indestructible must be "put on" and so why must it..., rather than 'he,' regardless of whoever you think 'he' may be 'he' most certainly is not 'they,' ... why then is it taught that 'it,' , or they that put on indestructible, be taken out of the way to avoid being destroyed?

The rapture is not for the whole church but a remnant of it.....those that had oil.
Good post you have here because it had me puzzled for somtime too.
Scripture tells us to pray that we might be worthy to escape the wrath which is to come.
With the ten virgins we see half with oil half with none. Half went to greet.
My question for many is if you cant live for Jesus now what makes you think you can do so through the trib?
Those that remain will be Justified by being martyrs.
As Jesus said " those that will lose their life for my name sake shall save it".
The end of the gentiles is also the end of grace. The book of revelation is the revealing of the Christ, to see and make known. Physical. Now those things which were hidden are now revealed.....no grace needed every eye sees.

Please send some love and help my way Brother = Can you present for us a Scriptural Diagnosis for the 5 foolish virgins who are left behind along with the 'rapture of the remnant'.

This comes to my mind from your response to me = "Love covers a multitude of sins" (benefit to me from you - thank you)
By pre-trib standards i have committed a multitude of sins, even to the point of declaring pre-trib a outright lie.

I believe i am ready now to have my mind adjusted thru the Word and Love, if you can help along with this extradition.

Since Revelation shows saints on the earth during difficult times, are you also thinking God is angry at these believers? 'Wrath' does not mean bad stuff happening.

A lot of Christians may be wiped out by persecutors. But that has been happening for centuries.

Have a look at Revelation 9,
3 And there came out of the smoke locusts upon the earth: and unto them was given power, as the scorpions of the earth have power.
4 And it was commanded them that they should not hurt the grass of the earth, neither any green thing, neither any tree; but only those men which have not the seal of God in their foreheads.

I was raised pre-trib. What caused me to back off of it was actually looking for the rapture in passages that seemed to show a sequence of events. There is no pre-trib rapture mentioned in Matthew 24. The gathering of the elect is set after the sign of the coming of the Son of Man in the clouds of heaven. Paul uses similar situation-- gathering....coming II Thessalonians 2:1 "Now we beseech you, brethren, by the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, and by our gathering together unto him,"

Paul also writes about the parousia-- the coming of Christ. I have read that for a parousia of a government official, the city people might come out to meet a government official and greet him and escort him back into the city.

It doesn't make sense for us to posit multiple 'parousia' when Paul writes about one of them. Let us consider some things that happen at the parousia:
1. The rapture and resurrection according to I Thessalonians 4.
2. "That wicked" (presumably the man of sin) being destroyed at the brightness of His coming. II Thessalonians 2.
3. The dead are made alive at His coming according to I Corinthians 15.

According to the pre-trib scenarios I've heard, the rapture happens, then the man of sin is revealed and there is a time of world peace at first. But in Paul's writings, Jesus comes back and executes judgment on them that know not God, and 'that wicked' is destroyed by the brightness of his passage.

There is no pre-trib rapture laid out in Matthew 24. It's not in the Thessalonians passages.

And pre-tribbers will take a passage that doesn't have any pre-trib evidence in it and try to interpret it around pre-trib. I've seen this with II Thessalonians 2. But it doesn't fit the passage.

Just saw this thread, and happy to oblige! I was raised in a Christian home and believed from an early age that Jesus will come and take believers to heaven (rapture).

Then I discovered the "Berean study method", per Act 17:11 - Now the Berean Jews were of more noble character than those in Thessalonica, for they received the message with great eagerness and examined the Scriptures every day to see if what Paul said was true.

This is what the Bible says about the resurrection:

1. The Bible teaches that there will be just one resurrection of the saved.

• Matt 22:30 - At the resurrection people will neither marry nor be given in marriage; they will be like the angels in heaven.
• Luke 14:14 - and you will be blessed. Although they cannot repay you, you will be repaid at the resurrection of the righteous.”
• Acts 24:15 - and I have the same hope in God as these men themselves have, that there will be a resurrection of both the righteous and the wicked.
• 1 Cor 15:23 - But each in turn: Christ, the firstfruits; then, when he comes, those who belong to him.

These verses all describe the resurrection of the saved in the singular; that means one resurrection.

2. The Bible teaches that there will be one resurrection of the unsaved.
- Acts 24:15 - and I have the same hope in God as these men themselves have, that there will be a resurrection of both the righteous and the wicked.

3. The Bible teaches when the resurrection of the saved will be.
- 1 Cor 15:23 - But each in turn: Christ, the firstfruits; then, when he comes, those who belong to him.

So, this single resurrection will occur “when He comes”. The Bible clearly says when that will be.

4. The resurrection of the saved will include EVERY believer from Adam forward.

• 1 Cor 15:23 - But each in turn: Christ, the firstfruits; then, when he comes, those who belong to him. It is obvious that every person who has believed in Christ do belong to Him.

5. The Bible teaches that the single resurrection of the saved will occur “when He comes” which is shown in 2 verses.

• 2 Thess 2:1 - Concerning the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ and our being gathered to him, we ask you, brothers and sisters, The context from ch 1 shows this “coming” is the Second Advent.
• Rev 20:4,5 4 I saw thrones on which were seated those who had been given authority to judge. And I saw the souls of those who had been beheaded because of their testimony about Jesus and because of the word of God. They had not worshiped the beast or its image and had not received its mark on their foreheads or their hands. They came to life and reigned with Christ a thousand years. 5 (The rest of the dead did not come to life until the thousand years were ended.) This is the first resurrection.

So we see in v.5 that the resurrection of tribulation martyrs is “the first resurrection”. The parentheses at the beginning of v.5 refers to all unbelievers who will be in the second resurrection, which will occur at the end of the Millennial Reign of Christ, for the GWT judgment in Rev 20:11-15.

Rev 20:5 tells us clearly that all believers, or “those who belong to Him” will be resurrected “when He comes” and Rev 20 shows that to be at the end of the Tribulation.

6. Finally, there are no verses that describe Jesus taking glorified believers to heaven ever. This is the foundation for the “pretrib rapture” teaching.

That said, since there are no verses that describe Jesus taking glorified believers to heaven, there is no "rapture", at least as the pretribbers think.

At the singular resurrection of the saved, those who are alive and remain will be "caught up" together with the dead saints and be given glorified bodies. But, since this occurs at the Second Advent, no one is going to heaven. All believers will accompany Jesus Christ to earth for the Millennial reign of King Jesus.

Would love to saint. Ive struggled back and forth for sometime but am now rooted into pre trib truth.
I believe the trib triggers more than disappearance. Allow me to get it together.
Let us both agree that the lord blesses our understanding.

Precious friend, A Very Warm Welcome To Chat.

GRACE And Peace...

Judgment of 1 Corinthians 3:8-15...

GRACE And Peace...

Reading this thread i find bits of Scripture twisted to fit here and there . So many Christians have their eyes of a country and some antichrist . Are theses Scriptures any less Scripture :

Rom_2:28 For he is not a Jew, which is one outwardly; neither is that circumcision, which is outward in the flesh:
Rom_2:29 But he is a Jew, which is one inwardly; and circumcision is that of the heart, in the spirit, and not in the letter; whose praise is not of men, but of God.
Luk_11:17 But he, knowing their thoughts, said unto them, Every kingdom divided against itself is brought to desolation; and a house divided against a house falleth.
Joh_17:21 That they all may be one; as thou, Father, art in me, and I in thee, that they also may be one in us: that the world may believe that thou hast sent me.
Rom 10:12 For there is no difference between the Jew and the Greek: for the same Lord over all is rich unto all that call upon him.

Mar_3:24 And if a kingdom be divided against itself, that kingdom cannot stand.

Gal_3:28 There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither bond nor free, there is neither male nor female: for ye are all one in Christ Jesus.
Col_3:11 Where there is neither Greek nor Jew, circumcision nor uncircumcision, Barbarian, Scythian, bond nor free: but Christ is all, and in all.
Mat_25:32 And before him shall be gathered all nations: and he shall separate them one from another, as a shepherd divideth his sheep from the goats: not sheep from sheep

not real
This statement of your is what I believe is true. this theme is repeated many times in the Bible. Maybe none believes will hear the call but it will only sound like trumpets, where believers will hear God speaking to them.

What Scripture tells us to look for an antichrist?