Doctrine of Unconditional Election

That land is not here, And it is not now. And israel in Gen 12 15 and 17 was NO PROMISED THAT LAND. nor was it given to them as a gift..

You can post that passage 1000 times, UNTIL you look at and respond to the actual covenant given in Gen 12, 15 and 17 you will continue to fail to grasp the palestinian covenant made between God and Israel as an eternal covenant.

I noticed you haven't included an explanined or harmonized how the Israel of today fits with God's promises to Abraham, according to
your stated beliefs.

And you find eternal in there, where? And you find eternal in there, where?
And you find eternal in there, where?And you find eternal in there, where?

I think the problem lies with your lack of understanding of the gospel.
.

And boy oh boy, talk about a red herring - if you're going to do that you need to be a little more subtle with your approach. I never said that God didn't give certain earthly lands to Abraham - I realize that God made promises to Abraham for those, but there were two kinds of promise made: one for the eternal; one for the temporal.

Not all of God's promises were eternal as witnessed by the conditional covenant He made with Israel,

which covenant, they failed in, and consequently, were divorced by God. Otherwise, had they been eternal promises, God couldn't have made them as conditional, and they certainly couldn't have been withdrawn: eternal means eternal.; everlasting means everlasting.

Let me ask you a question. Do you consider yourself a Christian? If so, how then could you believe that anything Abraham
had done could bring forth things spiritual and eternal? Answer: they couldn't have, only Christ's could.

God made Abraham the father of many nations, not only one:

[Rom 4:17 KJV] 17 (As it is written, I have made thee a father of many nations,) before him whom he believed, [even] God, who quickeneth the dead, and calleth those things which be not as though they were.

I find it here...

Psalms 105, “He remembers His covenant forever, the word which He commanded, for a thousand generations, the covenant which He made with Abraham, and His oath to Isaac, and confirmed it to Jacob for a statute, to Israel as an everlasting covenant.”

"Abram fell facedown, and God said to him, “As for me, this is my covenant with you: You will be the father of many nations. No longer will you be called Abram; your name will be Abraham, for I have made you a father of many nations. I will make you very fruitful; I will make nations of you, and kings will come from you. I will establish my covenant as an everlasting covenant between me and you and your descendants after you for the generations to come...

Nope. The land was given to Abraham and his descendants. Already posted the verses that said the covenant with Abe was unconditional. In fact the land promise was expanded.

Nope, there was no "they" to fail. The covenant was unconditional.

Jer.31 Thus saith the Lord, which giveth the sun for a light by day, and the ordinances of the moon and of the stars for a light by night, which divideth the sea when the waves thereof roar; The Lord of hosts is his name:
36 If those ordinances depart from before me, saith the Lord, then the seed of Israel also shall cease from being a nation before me for ever.

For about the 30th time, God Himself made an unconditional and everlasting covenant with Abraham. Abe didn't do it, God did. Abe was asleep.

All there in black and white. You accept the first part of Scripture but not the last. smh. Seems the issue with understanding the Bible is with you. smh

Maybe you are talking about the world that exists today, but the discussion began regarding disagreement of the blessings God intended for Israel.

The promise God gave about Canaan was never intended to be realized in the physical world.

Instead, the promise that God gave was of a spiritual Canaan which promise will continue forever, just as spiritual Jerusalem, and Israel (and others) are of things spiritual and eternal, not physical.

Have you never read the below from scripture? Spiritual Israel -- those elected to salvation from the foundation of the world-- have become the true Israel spiritually speaking. No longer is it the nation of Israel. The first covenant has ended and been done away in Christ. ALL of the eternal promises of blessings from the beginning made by God have been satisfied through Christ's offering, and therefore, pertain to the world to come.

[Heb 8:13 KJV] 13 In that he saith, A new [covenant], he hath made the first old. Now that which decayeth and waxeth old [is] ready to vanish away.

[2Co 1:20 - 20 KJV]
19 For the Son of God, Jesus Christ, who was preached among you by us, [even] by me and Silvanus and Timotheus, was not yea and nay, but in him was yea.
20 For all the promises of God in him [are] yea, and in him Amen, unto the glory of God by us.

And when you say that you believe the nation of Israel will repent, what exactly do you mean? How would that be
achieved? Are you saying that every Jew alive would become saved? And even if that could happen, what about the Jews
who lived before then, would they be covered by that too since all would be of the nation of Israel, or wouldn't they count? That perspective just doesn't make sense to me. If it is to be because of the nation of Israel, then it must cover all who were ever the citizens of the nation of Israel past, present future.

Regarding whether it matters as to whether or not you are a Christian, if you're not, then the conversation would have to
move backwards to a more fundamental level to establish and agree upon basic truths, otherwise, we would talk past each
other. So, are you?

Please forgive me, I am confused as to what the creation account has to do with the abrahamic covenanent, more directly, the part where God told abraham,

I will make you a great nation (gen 12)
I will give you this land (gen 15)
I give this land as an eternal gift to you and all your descendants after you forever (gen 17)

and later, in the law of moses, where God made provisions for them enjoying what was given to them, or what would happen if they disobeyed him (lev 26)

as for if I am a Christ. I was adopted as Gods child over 40 years ago, when I cried out to God and asked him to save me.

ps you did not offend me (if thats who you were talking to) I was just did not want to mistake what you were saying I wanted to be clear. To many people assume things, I do not want to be one of those people.

Thank you for responding and wishing to discuss..

God created man in His own image. Meaning, body, soul and spirit.


What this verse doesn't say is that God created wickedness. He did create ALL humans, including the wicked.

God does not cause wickedness.

Yet, in your previous post (3047) you posted this:

from post 3047
was
הָיְתָ֥ה (hā·yə·ṯāh)
Verb - Qal - Perfect - third person feminine singular
Strong's Hebrew 1961: 1) to be, become, come to pass, exist, happen, fall out 1a) (Qal) 1a1) ----- 1a1a) to happen, fall out, occur, take place, come about, come to pass 1a1b) to come about, come to pass 1a2) to come into being, become 1a2a) to arise, appear, come 1a2b) to become 1a2b1) to become 1a2b2) to become like 1a2b3) to be instituted, be established 1a3) to be 1a3a) to exist, be in existence 1a3b) to abide, remain, continue (with word of place or time) 1a3c) to stand, lie, be in, be at, be situated (with word of locality) 1a3d) to accompany, be with 1b) (Niphal) 1b1) to occur, come to pass, be done, be brought about 1b2) to be done, be finished, be gone

The Hebrew word translated "was" in Gen 1:2 was very poorly translated. Using biblehub.com I searched the entire OT for that exact form of hayah. In just under 60% of that exact form of the word, translators used "become OR became". In only 6% of the time, translators used "was".

The only difference between "become" and "became" is tense. Something WILL become something else, or something already became something else.

Looking at all the ways translators rendered key words, v.2 should have been: but, the earth became an uninhabitable wasteland.

Okay, I didn't want to leave your post hanging out there unanswered. I read (again) the chapters you specified, and my conclusions remain the same - and by the way, I don't know what you meant by a "palestinian covenant"? I do not find it mentioned in the Bible anywhere (please post where it may be found). So, don't say that I didn't read them - I've actually read them many times in the past.
I do fail to grasp the exitance of an eternal covenant with the nation of Israel because there isn't one - not the way you intend it. However, there is one with spiritual Israel: the Israel of God. The reason I posted those verses repeatedly, is so you could see that this world, in its entirety, will be destroyed by God, so it would be impossible for any of its land, covenants (or for anything else for that matter) to be eternal. Notice in the verses I posted that the Jerusalem comes down heaven is the eternal one, not the one of earth.

If, as you claim, earthly Canaan was an eternal possession given to Israel, then my question is: has Israel been in possession of it until now? Remember, for the possession to be eternal, it has to have been Israel's from the giving of it until forever. So, was it? If there were breaks in possession, then it couldn't be eternal. However, we are assured by the Bible, that Canaan was given to Abraham's seed as an eternal possession, but which seed? The fleshly seed? No, instead, these are they who are counted as Abraham's seed and heirs of God's promise, and therefore, eternal.

[Gal 3:29 KJV]
29 And if ye [be] Christ's, then are ye Abraham's seed, and heirs according to the promise.

[2Co 1:20 KJV]
20 For all the promises of God in him [are] yea, and in him Amen, unto the glory of God by us.

The following verses demonstrate that the nation of Israel's special relationship with God was ended by God because they did not keep His covenant.

[Jos 24:19 KJV]
19 And Joshua said unto the people, Ye cannot serve the LORD: for he [is] an holy God; he [is] a jealous God; he will not forgive your transgressions nor your sins.

[Jer 3:8-9 KJV]
8 And I saw, when for all the causes whereby backsliding Israel committed adultery I had put her away, and given her a bill of divorce; yet her treacherous sister Judah feared not, but went and played the harlot also.
9 And it came to pass through the lightness of her whoredom, that she defiled the land, and committed adultery with stones and with stocks.

[1Ki 9:6-7 KJV]
6 [But] if ye shall at all turn from following me, ye or your children, and will not keep my commandments [and] my statutes which I have set before you, but go and serve other gods, and worship them:
7 Then will I cut off Israel out of the land which I have given them; and this house, which I have hallowed for my name, will I cast out of my sight; and Israel shall be a proverb and a byword among all people:

[Jos 23:16 KJV]
16 When ye have transgressed the covenant of the LORD your God, which he commanded you, and have gone and served other gods, and bowed yourselves to them; then shall the anger of the LORD be kindled against you, and ye shall perish quickly from off the good land which he hath given unto you.

Also, after thinking about it further, I want to correct something I posted yesterday based upon the following verse:

[Zep 2:5 KJV] 5 Woe unto the inhabitants of the sea coast, the nation of the Cherethites! the word of the LORD [is] against you; O Canaan, the land of the Philistines, I will even destroy thee, that there shall be no inhabitant.

My understanding was, within that context, that it was referring to the physical destruction of Canaan at the end of the world.
However, now I believe the verse to be symbolic, but I won't go into my interpretation at this time.
Nevertheless, my conclusions of the covenants remains unchanged.

I am sorry I misunderstood. Lets look at the Abramic covenant.

You are right. There was an entire earth age that lasted a long time be it millions of years or longer maybe shorter. The one thing that is for sure the earth is a lot older than 6,000 years old according to Gods word.

At most the earth is 10, 000 just fyi

Yeah, one part of the covenant for blessing, one part for cursing. Because Israel did not fulfill their part, God cursed them.

The elect - those God saves across all people, races, nationalities, sexes, etc, - are the seed

Gal 3:29 KJV]
29 And if ye [be] Christ's, then are ye Abraham's seed, and heirs according to the promise.

this doesn't sound conditional to you?

The eternal covenant wasn't the one given to the nation of Israel.

For about the 30th time. That wasn't the covenant given to the nation of Israel. The everlasting covenant was regarding salvation.

I don't understand what you mean by that? I said there is an everlasting covenant but it is not the one God gave to the nation of Israel. Here it is again:

Gal 3:29 KJV]
29 And if ye [be] Christ's, then are ye Abraham's seed, and heirs according to the promise.

Do you accept the New Testament as being part of the Bible? I could be wrong, but I don't recall you ever quoting
from it.

Ok, so EG and I are using the Bible for our evidence. And we are using all the Word, not just parts that agree with our POV.

Are you a Christian, or are you other?

Why are you asking everyone that?

Because it makes no sense for me discuss salvation or things related to it with you ( or anyone else) if you don't believe in Christ as the only Saviour, does it?
Why? Is there a reason that you don't want anyone to know what your beliefs are based upon?[/QUOTE]


Bro, I have given Scripture for every single thing I posted. Why are you acting like it's not the Bible but some other belief?

If you want to prove this, GO to the text and PROVE IT IN THE TEXT.

Bro-ette - simple question: do you believe in Christ as sole Saviour? What are you afraid of by answering? If we're going to discuss these things with you and others, we should know that

With such being the case, those who truly belong to Christ (the CONDITION) are similarly God's "elect" or those who are "chosen in him" (Eph. 1:4), with the "him" being Jesus Christ.

This is the only point of your post that I'm going to respond to